Digital Film Out to B&W Negative On 16mm

[Scott Pickering]

I'm aware of places that do color digital video to color neg 16mm stock. Being in Canada I looked at Niagara Custom Lab as they do do this. First off what resolution should the video file be for the maximum resolution for film outs (and what format as in file type) for 16mm 4:3 color neg? They use 50D for the negative. But what I'm wonder is if they can film out to B&W neg stock like 7252 using the same machine? Video will be shot on an 8k Fuji mirrorless camera and framed accordingly for wide-screen letterbox. I know 8k is overkill for 16mm film outs. End result is a film scan and also a 16mm print. Does anyone have an uploaded film to look at for film out projects, especially 16mm?

Edited October 21, 2024 by Scott Pickering

[Scott Pickering]

It seems Niagara doesnt use a laser out, but a screen. Not ideal. Cinelab uses a laser to 16mm. Not sure they do 4:3 16mm or if it has to be Super 16? What is the rez of the files to go onto the film with them? Is it basically 2K or can you do 4K files for 16mm?

[Joerg Polzfusz]

The picture-taking area of standard 16 mm has an aspect ratio of 1.37:1, Super16 is 1.66:1. Hence, 4:3 seems incorrect in any case (unless they don’t fill the complete area).

Not sure about the companies that you have chosen, but normally, they simply scale up or down all videos to the required  resolution on their own. Simply contact them. You will to ask them about the supported codecs/container formats and ways of delivering the video (ftp upload, usb thumb drive, Blu-ray Data Disc, …) anyway.

 

 

[John Rizzo]

Hello Scott

you say

Cinelab uses a laser to 16mm.

the only laser recorder out there is the Arri and they only shoot to 35mm. Anyone shooting to 16mm is using some kind of LCD or crt monitor to shoot off of.

[Gautam Valluri]

I've "kinescoped" the titles for one of my films onto 16mm Orwo DN21 stock from an LCD screen. It was purely experimental and came out very underexposted in the end. I had to adjust the printer lights accordingly during the final print. For our DIY setup at L'Abominable, we use 1440 x 1080 (4:3) MOV ProRes files to record to 16mm frame-by-frame off of a calibrated LCD screen. It gets the job done for us experimental filmmakers.

As far as I know, there is no Arrilaser system for 16mm. If you really want a laser-out, you'd have to laser-out to 35mm IN, then contact print an IP from it and do a reduction IN to 16mm. This is naturally very inefficient and expensive.

A good CRT recorder that can do a fine filmout to 35mm will certainly give you a great image on 16mm.

13 hours ago, Scott Pickering said:

if they can film out to B&W neg stock like 7252 using the same machine?

Also 7252 is old Ektachrome colour reversal stock. Did you mean 7266 Tri-x or 7222 Double-X perhaps ?

 

[Mark Dunn]

8 hours ago, Joerg Polzfusz said:

The picture-taking area of standard 16 mm has an aspect ratio of 1.37:1, Super16 is 1.66:1. Hence, 4:3 seems incorrect in any case (unless they don’t fill the complete area).

 

 

 

True, the actual standard is 1.37 but there's very little difference. 1cm. on a 3m. screen. 4:3 still gets used as shorthand outside labs (and cinematography forums lol.)

[Simon Wyss]

8 hours ago, Joerg Polzfusz said:

The picture-taking area of standard 16 mm has an aspect ratio of 1.37:1, Super16 is 1.66:1. Hence, 4:3 seems incorrect in any case unless they don’t fill the complete area

An aperture according to ISO 466 can have any width of 10,05 mm mininum and a height of 7,42 mm minus 0 plus 0,15 [0.396 in. × 0.292 in. minus 0 plus 0.006]. The concept of measurements of 16 mm is a 0.4 in. wide picture on film that is advanced by 0.3 in. The image diagonal is half an inch, normal focal length is double that.

The aspect ratio is not defined. By tradition it’s 4:3 like with the standard film and 9.5 mm. 8 mm formats same

1:1,37(5) is the nominal aspect ratio of the 35 mm camera aperture as it was defined by the AMPAS in 1932, 0.868 in. × 0.631 in. That was altered to 0.867 × 0.630 a few years later. Today ISO 2906 gives 0.864 in. minimum × 0.630 in. minus 0 plus 0.02. The projected image shall have the 4:3 ratio since the agreement of the Paris congress of film producers of 1909 which is still in effect. It’s still possible to produce a silent or a sound movie and rely on the old standards. For the sake of interchangeability and copying among film sizes 4:3 is indicated.

[Ludwig Hagelstein]

Cinegrell in Berlin can do a proper 16mm filmout to real 16mm film from which you can then print - bw and color. 

[Thomas Aschenbach]

Colorlab offers 16mm B&W recording onto 3234 duplicate negative stock. For color 16mm we record to 3242 ip/dn.  We also record optical soundtracks and make color or bw prints. Here is an example of a music video recorded to BW 16mm here and then scanned. This is a commercial example.

[Robert Houllahan]

HI

The only really mass produced film recorders using lasers are the Arrilaser 1 and 2 machines, they only record to 35mm film.

I built a 16mm recorder 8-9 yrs ago and we are on the 5th generation of the recorder now.

We went from using a CT Scan medical imaging LCD to a very new Micro OLED for the recorder recently.

It uses a pin registered Mitchell 16mm camera and software which records DPX frames to 16mm one pin reg frame at a time with an intermittent movement and image control of the micro OLED. I have not made this machine Super 16mm it is a Standard 16mm gate and recording.

We can record to just about any 16mm stock with a calibration, our usual stocks are 50D 250D 500t and 7222

Edited October 23, 2024 by Robert Houllahan