Most portable lighting for classical music recordings in churches

[Larry Sanbourne]

Hello,

I frequently fly around Europe with a massively heavy suitcase of audio video gear for making high end audio recordings (16 channels of RME and Schoeps). My clients and I always want video and so I’ve been learning, and when the venues are well lit I sometimes get great results. FYI I’m also an opera singer so often I record myself. The venues are historic churches or artsy chamber music rooms, often organ lofts with overhead task lighting. I shoot the video with two Sony ZV-E10 II cameras and Tamron 24-70mm lenses, usually on f/2.8 or 4.5 for artistic bokeh. 
 

I want to focus on improving lighting, but there’s already no room in my suitcase. I already end up renting/borrowing mic stands on locations and it’s a lot to manage. 
 

Anyway, what’s the most portable lighting that would improve my situation? A pro video colleague suggested getting 2 little Aputure MC Pros just to learn, and at least to improve lighting in organ lofts. But I don’t know how I’d mount those for piano/vocal recordings…throw them on music stands with diffusers?

Separately from the flying-around-Europe use case, I don’t mind getting two lights that are a bit bigger - some kind of soft boxes I guess? - but I’d still have to be able to carry that plus 3 mic stands on a train. 
 

Thanks for any ideas!!!

Larry

[Larry Sanbourne]

Forgot to add: the vibe I’m usually going for is “showing the casual personal relationship among top musicians as they play amazingly well”. Think amazing people dressed in jeans communing with Bach. Sometimes we have used candles in bg and don’t mind quite dark scenes if the music makes sense. But we also eg need to be able to fix a scene with 4 bright overhead task lamps creating beautiful shiny light on brass organ stops but making ugly shadows on the player’s face. 

[Nicolas POISSON]

The Aputure MC pros are RGB light panel. Although this can be useful to add some spots of colour in the scene, I would rather use white LED panels for the main lighting. You will find tons of these small battery-powered panels for less than 50e. The white point is adjustable down to like 2500K typically, not that far from candles. Usually the battery lasts like a little more than 1 hour at full power. Maybe you can run them on external smartphone power-banks if you need more time.

These small panels will create hard shadows. But I am afraid you cannot get soft lighting given your constraints. This requires the light to be emitted from a wide surface. The greater the distance from the subject, the wider the surface. If light sources are like 1-2m from the talent, you could use a point-source light with a softbox. But this will require more powerful lights. They will be heavier,  they will run on mains unless you buy big batteries that will add up to total weight, they will need stronger stands (heavier as well).

You can find light stands way lighter than mic stands and reaching higher heights as well. I have a pair of Lastolite LAS1159 that go to 3m and weigh 1.35kg each. That is half the weight of a mic stand. These would be OK with a point source light and a 60x90cm softbox. If this is still too big, and if you follow the small panel route, Amazon sells 2.2m stands that weigh 900g and are like 60cm folded. These are low grade, but if you pay attention. this is a good way to save weight. These are not compatible with softboxes, by any mean.

You could also buy cheap "11 inch magic arms" with included clamp. These are really helpful to hang the small panels (no more) almost anywhere.

[Larry Sanbourne]

Bonjour Nicolas,

Thanks for your kind, quick, helpful reply!

I tried a friend's 10-euro small panel and even with waxed paper diffuser (high budget!), the shadows were too harsh. It worked for dramatically uplighting a door but that was about it.

Would a foldable LED mat like Intellytech LiteCloth LC-160 work? How small a light could I bring and still improve my results? I also spent the whole morning watching YouTube examples of interviews lit with just one light, and I wonder if this could be an option or would just be too challenging?

I already have 5 heavy K&M/Manfrotto mic stands that I don't travel far with - I keep them at home and drive them around if needed. If there's no good portable lighting solution, perhaps I have to bring lighting only if I have transit lined up. After all, I already need to find 2 portable tripods that don't suck...it's a ton to manage on trains.

What do you think?

Larry

Edited December 31, 2024 by Larry Sanbourne

[Nicolas POISSON]

I think you were doing a very common mistake (even amongst experienced professionals - and I used to mistake as well): soft shadows is not simply linked to the strength of diffusion, but to the emitting surface. One way to get a wide surface is to have a primary point source to light a wide surface of diffusion, which becomes itself a secondary wide source of light. Using a wide reflector does the same.

You will not get soft shadows placing a diffuser close to the point source. Stacking layers of diffusion (as I have seen so many times) will not help either. You really need to get a wide surface evenly lit. That's why soft-boxes often use dual diffusion distant from one another: the first layer spreads the beam of the point source, so that it lights the whole surface of the second diffuser. Without this first layer, the beam would hit only a small part of the second one.

Furthermore, what can be considered as "wide" is directly linked to the distance. The sun is huge, but so far away that it acts like a point source. A 30x30cm panel at 1m from the subject will create the same shadows as a 60x60cm panel at 2m. If you can place your diffuser close to the subject, you will get soft shadows from a not-so-wide surface. I'd say a panel will create soft shadows at distances comparable to its size. A 60x60cm panel will be definitely soft at distance of about 1m. It will be decently soft at 2m. It will not be that soft at 4m.

I own a pair of Godox F200Bi which are similar to the LC160. I am pretty happy with the rendering. Two units fit in the case of one (included and good quality). That could be a good solution if you accept a 22kg case. The panel itself is light, but I an afraid any device of this type to be around the same weight with all the mandatory accessories.

If you need a lighter kit, and if you do not want to spend too much time setting up the lights (those foldable panels need some time), then small or tiny panels could do the trick, but you need to accept hard shadows. This does not mean German expressionism style: you could have a relatively soft rendering, filling the shadows with a second hard light. Hard shadows does not mean high contrast ( another common mistake).

Look at this still of Hania Rani, a Polish pianist (published in FutureMusic )

This is hard lighting from the sun at dusk I guess, but shows a relaxing feeling.

Edited December 31, 2024 by Nicolas POISSON

[Eric Eader]

Larry,

You may want to consider Cardellini Clamps combined with Matthews' Studio Equipment gobo heads and both long and short arms.  With the correct adaptors you can place microphones where needed and avoid the hassles stands cause occasionally.  (If memory serves, Cardellini was a San Francisco Grip so should be easy to find in your area).  Mathillini's are cheaper knock-offs licensed from Cardellini--- but I always preferred the Card's to Math's but your choice.

Using the clamps with small blocks of wood against Leather next to location surfaces goes a long way toward preventing damage to property.   The easiest, cheapest way to acquire leather is to scour Apartment trash dump sites and cut sofas and plush chairs for all the leather you can possibly use.  (Twice a week near where I used to live a guy rides his bicycle around several of these sites and cuts all sofas and chairs, of every fabric style for the loose change, collecting a fair sum of bills and change, so no need to feel bashful about cutting them for your needs).

Any of the above mentioned lights if they have somewhere to mount a 5/8" spud can be used with this combination for more discreet working in tandem with regular stands.

Mole Richardson makes furniture clamps of varying sizes with 5/8" spuds to fit where Cardellinis may not do so well. (Think wider).

Lastly, two things:  you can always make a light from coffee cans, soup cans (single lights), or aluminum strips (found at hardware stores for larger multi-lamp setup). 

Hanover Frost Gel has proven to be a useful item providing a lovely light.

Grid Cloth (in varying strengths), is quite nice as well.

BONUS:  Dimmers for LED (and/or Tungsten), lights are very handy to have also.

Hopefully this helps.  

 

[Larry Sanbourne]

Thanks for the replies. For gigs where I'm coming from home, I travel with a K&M bag that fits 6 mic stands, but I usually only have 3 in there. This might give me room for a light stand, small point source light, and softbox. What would be the smallest decent setup? I'm wondering if I could also get buy with just one light, or if that's just absurd with 2 people ~4m apart in a dark church with a small softbox…

[Larry Sanbourne]

P.S. I noticed that a Dutch broadcaster brought two Falcon eyes RX-12SB+HC to illuminate a talking head for a broadcast on location. Is this reasonable solution for my needs?

[Nicolas POISSON]

One single light could do the trick, but you will need to place it carefully if you want good results. With more sources, you can fill shadows and this is more forgiving to placement.

No offence, but I find it hard to get your constraints. At the beginning you seemed to need something extremely portable. Hence I suggested tiny panels that would weigh 300g. Then you are looking at flexible panels whose total weight is around 10kg. It is hard to give advices with such a wide range.

Thanks to the sensitivity of modern cameras, you can get decent looking images using only 2 or 3 tiny 10W LED panels. Not "professional" results, but good enough so that nobody cares. The quality of the result will be more a question of position and focusing than power or softness.

Edited January 2 by Nicolas POISSON

[Larry Sanbourne]

Sorry for unclear constraints. Your helpful reply and information made me think "OK, the small light will be usable but not that versatile, so perhaps I should get that for my on-the-go use case, and when I'm doing gigs closer to home, I could get a separate light setup that would be the lightest-weight setup that would give me the flexibility to have somewhat softer shadows." (Also, I'm a total beginner and have never even touched one of these lights, and FalconEyes's site didn't list the weights...was surprised to know that 2 of these would put me at 10kg already!)

For the very mobile use case, are you able to recommend small/tiny panels? Is Aputure MC Pro too small? With the included diffuser, they might be handy for mounting on/in the organ loft. I guess I would still need stands like Matthew’s Reverse Stand...

By the way, I have the same struggle with audio: a more reasonable 8-channel Sound Devices MixPre just didn't have the quality that made me happy, so I bought two RME boxes and ended up flying around Europe with this stupid 33kg suitcase.... Am trying to find a lighter-weight setup (maybe focused more on smaller chamber music - this setup was enough to record 4-5 people in chamber music setting, and even full orchestra, which is not my common use case). It's so easy to rent good audio gear in Europe that I guess I could easily get by with just 6 channels and renting the rest...but the broadcaster-quality audio interfaces I've seen don't have more than 4 mic inputs on the audio interface itself, which means you have to buy the separate box just to have all the inputs needed...gah!

[Nicolas POISSON]

I also checked FalconEyes website and could not get the weight either. My Godox F200Bi (2x2 foldable panel) is 12kg for one single unit. The panel itself is less than 2kg, but you also need the power supply, softbox, cables, various accessories and case. The FalconEyes are smaller and probably way lighter, but for two units I would expect the whole package to reach 10kg.

As I said, the problem with the MC pro is not power. It is an RGB light, which you don't want as main source. Once you have built a solid kit, then yes, you could add RGB lights.

I think you pay too much attention to the hardware quality. Start with simple, lightweight, cheap lighting, and experiment with them. Learn how to place them, watch videos about 3-point lighting, define what rigging accessories you need to face any situation quickly (highly underrated topic), search the sweet spot between your ISO setting and how intrusive is your lighting... There are plenty of folks that get decent results with super cheap LED panels everyday.

Edited January 3 by Nicolas POISSON

[Larry Sanbourne]

Understood, thanks! Simple, lightweight, cheap sounds great. For my learning, what’s wrong with RGB as main source?

And do you have recs for small or mini panels and lightest-weight stands? 

Lastly, are there books you’d recommend, so I don’t bother you experts more? 🙂

Thank you!!

[Nicolas POISSON]

Usually, the key light will be a kind of white. You can play with the colour temperature, but keep it white. Some RGB panels produce a decent white, but you get better results with true white LEDs. You can use colour for lighting the background.

It is of course possible to use colourful key light, but:

- this is harder to set up, especially with LEDs that can produce saturated colours (beware of not clipping the corresponding channel),

- this is harder to get a good-looking image,

- this may give a "music video" look, which can be adequate for some styles, but not what is expected for classical music in a church. This is a matter of taste, though.

I use a set of Viltrox RB08. These may be no longer sold, but you will find tons of equivalent devices. For stands, the Fosoto FT-195 is very compact once folded (50cm), and less crappy than the cheapest models. You will also need ball heads with 1/4" screw, tiny magic arms with clamp, cases, charger...

 

Edited January 4 by Nicolas POISSON

[Larry Sanbourne]

Thanks, Nicolas. The Aputure MC Pro that I mentioned earlier is actually RGBWW, which would be helpful for me in case of occasionally creating subtle accent fills (e.g. uplighting old architecture or adding visual interest in an otherwise boring room). It is bigger and brighter than the old MC, and it has an enticing set of modifiers (bubble diffuser, flat diffuser, and 30º grid. However, it's 540g... I will see if I can reorganize my suitcase so I can have room for an extra kg, but it's already damned tight in there...

Edited January 4 by Larry Sanbourne

[Larry Sanbourne]

P.S. Falcon Eyes PockeLite F7 is RGBWW at 300g...smaller, though. It's unclear to me how much value I get from a slightly bigger light, vs the tradeoff from more weight.

[Nicolas POISSON]

Sorry, my mistake about the MCPro. Still, a white light would be cheaper and lighter. The RB08 alone weighs 100g. I have 4 of them with chargers, 4 mini magic arms, and some accessories: all the stuff fit in a 21x32x7cm "EVA" case for a total weight of 2.5kg. I can put it in a messenger bag together with my laptop.

The MC Pro definitely seems to be a higher grade device compared to the RB08: greater battery runtime, DMX/CRMX control, many accessories included (a honeycomb grid is very useful)... It is not the most portable option, but if this is portable enough for you, this is probably a better investment.

[Larry Sanbourne]

Does anyone else have experience with slightly larger but still portable lights that might be effective here? I'm pretty sold on RGBWW, to avoid casts at temps in the middle of the Planckian curve, and I'm willing to up my weightspace budget, but not quite as far as needed to go for, say, the 12000+lux Nanlite PavoSlim with attached softbox. Have been salivating over that and desperate to get it but it's huge!

Another question, to owners of e.g. Amaran F21*, how tightly can you roll these up for transport, and are they delicate or can you use them basically as bubble wrap for audio gear?