Loading an eyemo in the dark?

Logan Harmon · February 3

Hi!

This is my first time posting here, I have never done anything with motion picture stuff before but I’m excited to start!

I’m in a very fortunate position of being able to borrow a 35mm eyemo camera from a friend on occasion, and I am planning on using it to shoot some footage at some point this spring/summer.

My question is, can you load this camera successfully in the dark? I know loading it isn’t particularly difficult by design, but it is also meant to be done with the lights on, so I imagine that loading in the dark might be challenging. I am most concerned with forming the loops.

The reason I ask is that daylight spools are nearly impossible to find, and are often prohibitively expensive when they do appear. But, the standard 1” OD core that 31m rolls of film cone on should still be compatible with the drive mechanism. Can you simply put a bulk roll of film in the camera and load it in the dark?

In my case, I am fortunate enough to have 2 daylight spools, but the film I am planning to shoot with (Astrum IR-200) has a tendency to light pipe like crazy so I would rather load it in the dark regardless. I can also get the 1” cores 3D printed, meanwhile the spool is not really feasible for printing.

Thanks in advance for any help.

Edited February 3 by Logan Harmon

Mark Dunn · February 3

I wouldn't expect the keyway for a roll of bulk film to fit on a camera spindle- if these are bulk loads of still film you're using, there's no reason for them to be compatible as they were never intended to go in a camera. But if you've verified that they are, fair enough.

The film supply and takeup would be very uneven with no flange to guide the film- it could catch on the sides of the chamber and might even slip off the roll altogether and cause a real mess. The film is intended to be guided onto the sprocket by the spool flanges so without them the feed could be incorrect.

I can't answer the dark loading question but with enough practice it should be possible. If combat cameramen could do it under fire you can probably learn to do it in a changing bag.

Edited February 3 by Mark Dunn

Logan Harmon · February 3

2 hours ago, Mark Dunn said:

I wouldn't expect the keyway for a roll of bulk film to fit on a camera spindle- if these are bulk loads of still film you're using, there's no reason for them to be compatible as they were never intended to go in a camera. But if you've verified that they are, fair enough.

The film supply and takeup would be very uneven with no flange to guide the film- it could catch on the sides of the chamber and might even slip off the roll altogether and cause a real mess. The film is intended to be guided onto the sprocket by the spool flanges so without them the feed could be incorrect.

I can't answer the dark loading question but with enough practice it should be possible. If combat cameramen could do it under fire you can probably learn to do it in a changing bag.

I do know that a normal bulk role core will fit in the Eyemo, the only difference between the 2 keyways is that the keyway on the spool has a rounded end as opposed to square.

As far as the film coming off the roll and making a mess, it shouldn’t do that but I do have some dummy film I could definitely use to test this.

when I get it, hopefully in a few months, I will do some testing with the dummy film before I put the good film in the camera. I hope that I can figure out how to load it in the dark. From the one video that I found that actually explained how to load one, it doesn’t look very difficult at all, I would just be concerned about the loop not forming correctly and causing issues.

Eric Eader · February 3

I cannot speak to the core loaded film vs. daylight loads working in your camera; but, if the splines are the same then yes they might work.

Light piping can occur if the film on the daylight reel is not loaded in a 'wobbly' manner, i.e. layering favoring first one side, then the other as film is wound onto reel. This serves to block light from reaching inner layers. (A gap existing between the film edge and inside of reel [not touching wall], allows light to pass deeper into the roll).

If the core fits and camera threading is correct and it runs without problems, great. However, make darn sure to to tape camera door shut and add note warning against opening the camera in daylight as is normal practice. Maybe two such warnings.

As for loading in darkness, yes practice, practice, practice. Then practice again and again.. Do not skimp or weasel out of this. You will never regret learning this. (Before I was permitted to 'solo' shoot my first TV News story I had to demonstrate my ability to load all the different cameras our station used in the dark and also to download in the dark all that exposed film onto the big reel for loading onto the processor).

As a side note I used to own a WWII U.S. Navy book that outlined part of the testing all mechanics for PT boats had to demonstrate before passing their courses and shipping out to the South Pacific. IN THE DARK they had to completely reassemble a V12 Packard engine. There were three of them and since the boat itself was wooden and they mostly operated at night (to avoid aircraft attacks), one could not turn on the lights to make the repairs. If that seems exaggerated ask any vet about their bootcamp demonstration of just how bright a lit cigarette is at night. The light leaking through the bullet holes would be like a Christmas tree at sea. Possibly the last mistake one would make forever.

To learn to dark load take it one step at a time. Do it right first in daylight, then (in darkness), one step, then the next until you can complete it all without hangups. It takes some time but is doable. You will be surprised at how much information your fingers will transmit to your brain in the dark.

In case you didn't know, still film and cine film use different sprocket hole shapes. Cine film will work in still cameras, but users are warned to not use motor drives to advance the film vs. hand advance.

That same caution may exist doubly so when using stills film in cine cameras. YMMV.

I may be wrong but cine film usually would be loaded onto daylight spools (100' loadings), wouldn't it?

I know 400' and 1000' loads are on cores. (Never had occasion to use 100' 35mm film loads).

Hope this helps.

Logan Harmon · February 4

2 hours ago, Eric Eader said:

I cannot speak to the core loaded film vs. daylight loads working in your camera; but, if the splines are the same then yes they might work.

Light piping can occur if the film on the daylight reel is not loaded in a 'wobbly' manner, i.e. layering favoring first one side, then the other as film is wound onto reel. This serves to block light from reaching inner layers. (A gap existing between the film edge and inside of reel [not touching wall], allows light to pass deeper into the roll).

If the core fits and camera threading is correct and it runs without problems, great. However, make darn sure to to tape camera door shut and add note warning against opening the camera in daylight as is normal practice. Maybe two such warnings.

As for loading in darkness, yes practice, practice, practice. Then practice again and again.. Do not skimp or weasel out of this. You will never regret learning this. (Before I was permitted to 'solo' shoot my first TV News story I had to demonstrate my ability to load all the different cameras our station used in the dark and also to download in the dark all that exposed film onto the big reel for loading onto the processor).

As a side note I used to own a WWII U.S. Navy book that outlined part of the testing all mechanics for PT boats had to demonstrate before passing their courses and shipping out to the South Pacific. IN THE DARK they had to completely reassemble a V12 Packard engine. There were three of them and since the boat itself was wooden and they mostly operated at night (to avoid aircraft attacks), one could not turn on the lights to make the repairs. If that seems exaggerated ask any vet about their bootcamp demonstration of just how bright a lit cigarette is at night. The light leaking through the bullet holes would be like a Christmas tree at sea. Possibly the last mistake one would make forever.

To learn to dark load take it one step at a time. Do it right first in daylight, then (in darkness), one step, then the next until you can complete it all without hangups. It takes some time but is doable. You will be surprised at how much information your fingers will transmit to your brain in the dark.

In case you didn't know, still film and cine film use different sprocket hole shapes. Cine film will work in still cameras, but users are warned to not use motor drives to advance the film vs. hand advance.

That same caution may exist doubly so when using stills film in cine cameras. YMMV.

I may be wrong but cine film usually would be loaded onto daylight spools (100' loadings), wouldn't it?

I know 400' and 1000' loads are on cores. (Never had occasion to use 100' 35mm film loads).

Hope this helps.

Thanks for all of the wonderful information and insights, yes, I will be practicing a lot with dummy film before I even attempt to load the camera with real film. I am super excited to shoot cinema for the first time, especially with IR film! I think it’ll be a fun experience.

Just a few thoughts of my own:

Both still film and motion picture film has a perforation picture of 0.1866 inches, or short pitch. Projection or print stock has a perforation pitch of 0.1870, or long pitch, to accommodate the very slightly longer film path that these prints typically take through equipment like contact printers.

As far as the shape, KS perfs are larger than BH perfs, so there should be no issues there

The reason that I want to load it in complete darkness is because of light piping, which is different than edge fogging, which seems to be what you were describing. The film I’m going to be using has a very clear PET base (yes, I know motion picture film is usually acetate, there are reasons behind that, but that’s beyond the scope of this post), which can act like a fiber optic cable, causing fogging much deeper into the roll than usual. You see this with a lot of aerial films, and infamously with HIE. Ideally I would attach an opaque leader/trailer to the film to allow daylight loading, but I don’t have a film splicer, and can’t justify spending $100+ on one.

As far as I know, there is no one putting film on daylight spools anymore, aside from maybe the microfilm folks. Astrum (where I am getting this film) sends their smaller film widths on 2” cores, like you would find in a normal 400 or 1000 ft 35mm roll. I will be winding it onto the spool at home, as I am pretty lucky to have a few. They are very expensive now.

An interesting thing about this film is, I am able to load 200 feet onto a 100 foot spool just because of how thin the film is. That means I can get a whole two minutes of footage in the Eyemo instead of just one!

Edited February 4 by Logan Harmon
Typo

Simon Wyss · February 4

These are smart deliberations. One thing I’m not fully grasping is prohibitively expensive spools since you can always have your spools back from the laboratory and if not, you know that that lab doesn’t deserve further attention from you. I had a lab from 1997 to 2008. You can use cheap plastic microfilm spools as long as one isn’t larger than 38,9 mm on any cross section.

There was a so-called maximum capacity H(undred Foot) spool having a smaller core. It would accomodate around 180 feet of black-and-white stock. ISO 3047 describes the common H spool.

You can load an Eyemo in the dark, it takes a little practice. For a start I should suggest you use a classic film such as Ilford Pan F. Don’t put open film on core in an Eyemo, there is the risk of film edge damage by the screw heads on one side or by the lid lock on the other.

In case you fear halos strap a piece of black velvet over the pressure plate. Brush it clean often and check the aperture for lint. To remove the pressure plate from the slide pull it towards the rear, then up.

Logan Harmon · February 4

5 hours ago, Simon Wyss said:

These are smart deliberations. One thing I’m not fully grasping is prohibitively expensive spools since you can always have your spools back from the laboratory and if not, you know that that lab doesn’t deserve further attention from you. I had a lab from 1997 to 2008. You can use cheap plastic microfilm spools as long as one isn’t larger than 38,9 mm on any cross section.

I’ll definitely try my best to keep these spools, but if I ever need to replace them, it’ll be a rather expensive endeavor at $30-40 a spool online (when they come up). Microfilm is an option, but the one place I found that might have spools that you can use in an eyemo sells them for $365/case of 275 pcs.

5 hours ago, Simon Wyss said:

There was a so-called maximum capacity H(undred Foot) spool having a smaller core. It would accomodate around 180 feet of black-and-white stock. ISO 3047 describes the common H spool.

I don’t see any sort of “maximum capacity” spool mentioned anywhere on the document that you referenced, at least not the 1982 version. But, in theory, with a 15.5mm core diameter (the square hole is 11.5mm diagonally so this is the practical limit), you can get about 140 ft of polyester cinema film on it if you go up to the very edges. For thin PET and ultra-thin PET you can get 176 and 264 ft, respectively.

5 hours ago, Simon Wyss said:

You can load an Eyemo in the dark, it takes a little practice. For a start I should suggest you use a classic film such as Ilford Pan F. Don’t put open film on core in an Eyemo, there is the risk of film edge damage by the screw heads on one side or by the lid lock on the other.

I do have some SO-078 film (TMax 400 on thin PET) I might run through it, we’ll see. I have heard TMax films don’t work particularly well in D96 unfortunately. As far as the edges of the film getting damaged by protrusions in the film chamber, that is actually a bit concerning. I’ll keep that in mind.

Edited February 4 by Logan Harmon

Simon Wyss · February 4

The max spools date back to the 1920s.

I can send you two or three 100-ft. black plastic spools.

What you need is a good relation with a movie film lab. The more you appear there as a clean-cut customer, regardless of how many miles you bring them, the rather they will help you out with a spool, a can, a core, some leader.

By the way, there have been 50-foot spools, too. Rare as hens’ teeth

Eric Eader · February 4

I may be (make that 'am' ), in deep water here, but I think perf size does matter in a mopic camera.

The film may not stop moving long enough for a properly registered image with an improper slipshod tooth/perf- shape misfit. Image quality will be less than satisfactory I believe.

If an incorrectly threaded camera can be damaged/rendered inoperable even with correct film type loaded, doesn't that increase failure rate chances with "abby normal something" film? (Young Frankenstein 😄).

Maybe people are doing this routinely (shooting non mopic film in movie cameras), and I just have not heard about it.

Simon Wyss · February 4

Wrong assumption. The Eyemo is so designed that the film is held laterally between a fixed rail and a spring loaded one. Along the optical axis it is held down against the aperture plate by a back pressure plate. Longitudinally, to complete the three dimensions, the two-prongs shuttle can simply pull on hole edges for the length of a stroke, then retract. The braked film does not slip any further. The relatively narrow loops stabilise additionally. Literally every 35-mm. film stock can be exposed in an Eyemo successfully, the only exception would be such perforated according to ISO 491 AC.

Eric Eader · February 4

OK

I stand corrected.

Thanks for the lesson.

Does this stand for other camera designs, or is it limited to the 'Eyemo'?

Logan Harmon · February 4

8 hours ago, Simon Wyss said:

I can send you two or three 100-ft. black plastic spools.

That would actually be really awesome, I’ll see if I can figure out how to send a PM.

8 hours ago, Simon Wyss said:

What you need is a good relation with a movie film lab. The more you appear there as a clean-cut customer, regardless of how many miles you bring them, the rather they will help you out with a spool, a can, a core, some leader.

Yes, I have been told this, and it does work! I also buy 16mm film and roll it for folks, and couldn’t find them for a good price online. So I just called the folks at CineLab randomly one day asking if they had film spools and boxes, and they did! I got something like 30 16mm spools and boxes for shipping.

Unfortunately, 35 mm spools are not something they get many of nowadays, and I was told on the rare occasion they have seen them, they are accompanied with instructions to return them, which makes sense.

2 hours ago, Simon Wyss said:

Wrong assumption. The Eyemo is so designed that the film is held laterally between a fixed rail and a spring loaded one. Along the optical axis it is held down against the aperture plate by a back pressure plate. Longitudinally, to complete the three dimensions, the two-prongs shuttle can simply pull on hole edges for the length of a stroke, then retract. The braked film does not slip any further. The relatively narrow loops stabilise additionally. Literally every 35-mm. film stock can be exposed in an Eyemo successfully, the only exception would be such perforated according to ISO 491 AC.

This is actually a pretty neat system, seems remarkably versatile actually!

Edited February 4 by Logan Harmon

Simon Wyss · February 5

Logan, I have just sent an enquiry mail to the Negative Space at Littleton. Let’s see whether they have a couple H spools and cans around for you.

Logan Harmon · February 6

9 hours ago, Simon Wyss said:

Logan, I have just sent an enquiry mail to the Negative Space at Littleton. Let’s see whether they have a couple H spools and cans around for you.

Oh that reminds me, I need to ask them if they use IR illumination… would rather use a place 2 hours away rather than ship to the coast if I can

Simon Wyss · February 6

Do explain to Nicki that I have asked about spools and cans, not film raw stock.

Logan Harmon · February 6

I shot them an email this morning, hopefully they get back to me soon.

Logan Harmon · February 6

Oh wow that was quick!

Yes they can dev the film, which is awesome since it’s super close by!

But, no they don’t have any empty spools, which was the expected answer. Never hurts to ask though!

Simon Wyss · February 6

Here’s not expensive:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/277346401632?_skw=35mm+100ft+black+plastic+film+spool&var=2560706680265&itmmeta=01KGSZP06GMZRAS745K3HB2TFC&hash=item4093223d60:g:dA4AAeSw9nlpfiep&itmprp=enc%3AAQALAAAA4GfYFPkwiKCW4ZNSs2u11xAuCh8k5kAJ0xXIViNibSgiRNPlO16cPcrbPoq8JLCBfyNgxCfJdpuYVsu0Chjru%2BAk31U9KCV9hcO31QETnDdxMxl0JEcJ4faE1foZhNzgHd2EJ2zh8FzR5vqQOIOh3jhFfP0uDSZiJcf87oxrSfMhDg%2FBRl5xMMg6Lbbf%2FllcD3EhvEK7e7Oe4sD%2FYVTNnN1QCitlcmYF%2Fl1v7ZGL0gbrelFBMJekhUd3ysonfhPvGIM4xAEMyhI%2B7yMWRM71IWfQtU0fAWi4HRluj1bG%2FA2J|tkp%3ABk9SR7yD2L-GZw

Logan Harmon · February 6

3 hours ago, Simon Wyss said:

Here’s not expensive:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/277346401632?

I just messaged the guy to see how expensive buying his entire lot of these spools would be, if it’s not too expensive I might just buy them all and then split the spools between myself and my friend who owns the camera.

Edited February 6 by Logan Harmon