Premium Member Philip Pritchard Posted April 8 Premium Member Posted April 8 Ok..can someone explain why analogue film even NEEDS to be 'color balanced'. I.e. Why can't it see light like my eyes do? For example when I walk from outdoors in daylight in to a room with tungsten lights I do not switch my eyes to 'tungsten balanced'. They can see what's in front of them. If analogue film reacts to red, green and blue wavelengths...why do I need a day light or tungsten 'balanced' stock....I,.e. why doesn't it just react to what's in front of it (i.e. some mixture of red, green and blue)...and render it as the eye does? Tx All.
Brian Drysdale Posted April 8 Posted April 8 Your brain automatically colour grades. If there's a change to your eyes, for example if you have the lenses changed after a cataract operation, the colours will appear very bright. That's because the brain has been correcting the faded colours caused by the cataract. However, after a few days, the brain has settled its correction, so that the colours aren't so saturated. The film stocks are designed to have correct colours at a particular colour temperature by using layers: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_motion_picture_film Video cameras have similar difficulties, even automatic white balancing is limited when you have a mixture of colour temperatures within the scene. Parts may be blueish, while others may be warm. 1
Brian Drysdale Posted April 8 Posted April 8 If you look closely at mixed lighting with your eyes, you will notice the colour differences in the world. Painters use this in their work, when using colour.
Premium Member Simon Wyss Posted April 8 Premium Member Posted April 8 Film doesn’t need to be colour balanced. If exposed without care, developed so-and-so, printed just like that, and projected somehow, you’ll still have images and action. Sound may be distorted, out of synch, the frame rate erroneous, the image aspect wrong. The scope is vast from haphazard filmmaking to concerted production. Where do you think are you standing with your question?
Premium Member David Mullen ASC Posted April 8 Premium Member Posted April 8 Your brain is continuously color-balancing and exposure-adjusting the image. If you wear yellow sunglasses for a while, things look less yellow and for a moment after you take them off, everything looks blue-ish until your brain adjusts. You can make a film or digital camera that has auto-exposure but the adjusting usually happens before the light hits the sensor or film. But you can't really do that with color. However, with a digital camera, color can be balanced after light hits the sensor and the raw signal is processed to RGB for viewing and/or non-raw recording. 2 1
Premium Member David Mullen ASC Posted April 8 Premium Member Posted April 8 The thing is that film DOES "react" to changes in color balance and it captures those changes. The problem is that you then see those changes in the processed image.
Premium Member Hannes Famira Posted April 8 Premium Member Posted April 8 If I may piggyback on this thread. Picture a person standing under a yellow street light being filmed with a digital camera (this is where I am hijacking the thread). If the shot is for a newscast, I can imagine that you would want their white shirt to actually look white. So you white-balance your camera. However, if the shot is for a movie and you're going for a painterly look, why would you not allow the camera to capture what now looks like a yellow shirt? The viewer might still identify it as a white shirt under yellow light, but we would probably not want the camera to correct it back to white. Am I getting this wrong? Immediate follow up question: When I white-balance a video camera I am in fact applying gain to individual color channel which will introduce noise. If I shoot in RAW (actually XOCN) and then instead of balancing the camera sensor apply color correction in post, am I not doing the same thing but with much more control and potentially less noise? As always any pointers are much appreciated.
Brian Drysdale Posted April 8 Posted April 8 (edited) A yellow street light is probably sodium, which has a spike in the colour spectrum, so you won't get white. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium-vapor_lamp Edited April 8 by Brian Drysdale
Joerg Polzfusz Posted April 8 Posted April 8 There have been „general“ filmstocks in the past like the Ektachrome 160G. The downside of these films was that their colors always looked bad - under all types of light. 😉
Karim D. Ghantous Posted April 9 Posted April 9 Fuji Real did a fairly good job of handling fluorescent lighting. But not all light is equal, and not all spectra are equal. All light sensitive material is sensitive to something, and it's never dynamic. Software behind it can be dynamic, but capture media just captures what it is sensitive to. Remember that electronic sensors can't see colour, so their sensitivity depends on several things, including the type of Bayer filter.
Premium Member David Mullen ASC Posted April 9 Premium Member Posted April 9 10 hours ago, Hannes Famira said: Immediate follow up question: When I white-balance a video camera I am in fact applying gain to individual color channel which will introduce noise. If I shoot in RAW (actually XOCN) and then instead of balancing the camera sensor apply color correction in post, am I not doing the same thing but with much more control and potentially less noise? If by “video camera” you mean one with three sensors behind a prism block splitting the light three ways (like a 3-CCD camcorder) then you are already capturing separate RGB signals that can be re-balanced to adjust for color temperature (though this is usually recorded in a compressed video codec using color subsampling that isn’t a simple RGB format.) But if you are talking about a single sensor with an RGB color mosaic filter in front of it, then it has to be demosaiced from raw to RGB for viewing and for recording if you don’t want only a raw recording. Yes, working from raw in post gives you more control to make changes because you haven’t baked in the color balance but if you’re just talking about white balancing, then I don’t think it’s necessarily less noisy to do it in post versus in-camera but at least you won’t be dealing with a compressed color subsampled recording if you work from raw. But there are also high-quality RGB codecs that are nearly as good as raw. 1
Matthew J. Walker Posted April 9 Posted April 9 Stare at a green image close enough so that all four quadrants of your visual field (peripheral vision) also appear green and remain there for about a minute. Once finished, everything white will be tinted purple. This is the brain's way of attempting to establish green as neutral. I'll spare you of too much ocular anatomy, but the combination of the human eye and the brain is much more analogous to a lens and camera than you'd think. Light enters your eye inverted both vertically and horizontally, the same way it enters a camera's lens inverted, but the brain corrects it. In fact there is a rare condition called Reversal of Vision Metamorphopsia where individuals' brains fail to fully correct their vision, resulting in a 180-degree 'upside down' vision. Anyway, I said I'd spare you so I'll stop there. So yes, you are correct in that your eyes don't white balance, your brain does.
Doyle Smith Posted April 11 Posted April 11 (edited) Perhaps other DPs have experienced the phenomenon of opening a cto gelled window into a 3200k practical set. The exterior daylight looks blue for a few moments until your eyes and brain adjust to a new white balance. Edited April 11 by Doyle Smith
Premium Member Philip Pritchard Posted April 30 Author Premium Member Posted April 30 On 4/7/2026 at 8:56 PM, Philip Pritchard said: Ok..can someone explain why analogue film even NEEDS to be 'color balanced'. I.e. Why can't it see light like my eyes do? For example when I walk from outdoors in daylight in to a room with tungsten lights I do not switch my eyes to 'tungsten balanced'. They can see what's in front of them. If analogue film reacts to red, green and blue wavelengths...why do I need a day light or tungsten 'balanced' stock....I,.e. why doesn't it just react to what's in front of it (i.e. some mixture of red, green and blue)...and render it as the eye does? Tx All. So what y'all seem to be saying then is that in fact when I walk from outside in daylight to indoors (into a room with Tungsten lights) my Brain (i.e. not my eye) DOES in fact switch to 'Tungsten balanced' viewing....and this is so that objects (especially white objects) don't appear TOO yellow? Maybe a 'bit' of yellow is ok...and that is the WARM tones we speak of under tungsten lights...but are we saying that it would appear WAY TOO yellow, WITHOUT this adjustment?
Premium Member Philip Pritchard Posted May 1 Author Premium Member Posted May 1 And this must be because the eye/brain has evolved to want to known what color surfaces 'actually' are, despite the hue of light they may be bathed in at any moment? In order to properly identify objects abd things for evolutionary reasons perhaps.
Karim D. Ghantous Posted May 1 Posted May 1 9 hours ago, Philip Pritchard said: So what y'all seem to be saying then is that in fact when I walk from outside in daylight to indoors (into a room with Tungsten lights) my Brain (i.e. not my eye) DOES in fact switch to 'Tungsten balanced' viewing....and this is so that objects (especially white objects) don't appear TOO yellow? Maybe a 'bit' of yellow is ok...and that is the WARM tones we speak of under tungsten lights...but are we saying that it would appear WAY TOO yellow, WITHOUT this adjustment? Yes. Sensors and emulsions, within their limits, just record what they see. They take what they're given. They are 'mechanical', so to speak. 5 hours ago, Philip Pritchard said: And this must be because the eye/brain has evolved to want to known what color surfaces 'actually' are, despite the hue of light they may be bathed in at any moment? In order to properly identify objects abd things for evolutionary reasons perhaps. I'm not a biologist, but our visual system is very nuanced and it adjusts without us realising it.
Matthew J. Walker Posted May 5 Posted May 5 On 4/30/2026 at 4:28 PM, Philip Pritchard said: So what y'all seem to be saying then is that in fact when I walk from outside in daylight to indoors (into a room with Tungsten lights) my Brain (i.e. not my eye) DOES in fact switch to 'Tungsten balanced' viewing....and this is so that objects (especially white objects) don't appear TOO yellow? Maybe a 'bit' of yellow is ok...and that is the WARM tones we speak of under tungsten lights...but are we saying that it would appear WAY TOO yellow, WITHOUT this adjustment? Yes! I've worked with optometrists for years! On 4/30/2026 at 8:33 PM, Philip Pritchard said: And this must be because the eye/brain has evolved to want to known what color surfaces 'actually' are, despite the hue of light they may be bathed in at any moment? In order to properly identify objects abd things for evolutionary reasons perhaps. I said I'd spare you of ocular anatomy, but I think the human eye is very akin to a lens and film, and the brain like postproduction, so you and others may find it fascinating to understand. The very front part of the eye, called the cornea, focuses scattered light into a beam that passed through the pupil just like the front element of a lens. The pupil isn't actually an object, in fact, it is simply a hole just like the barrel of a lens. It only appears black because, like a cave, there is not enough light to illuminate the inside. As such, the red "red eye' phenomenon in flash photography is simply light illuminating the inside of the eye, making the fleshy pink color of the retina visible through the pupil; simply put, reflection. The iris is the colored part of your eye, but more importantly, it is a muscle that either constricts or dilates according to ambient light. In a bright space, the pupil will appear very small, and in a dark one it should appear larger. Drugs and alcohol affects this in a variety of ways, which is why the pupil might appear larger or smaller if certain drugs are present in their bloodstream. Age also affects its reaction time. The ocular lens is held closely behind the iris via ligaments, which pull the lens back and forth, effectively autofocusing the eye. It's the very reason why (most) people can look at fine print from arms length or closer, then almost instantly focus on something in the distance. Naturally, these ligaments also weaken with age, which is why most everyone will slowly lose their ability to focus on near objects/read fine print usually sometime after age 40. The ocular lens, just like coating lens of a camera, will also naturally change with time, affecting color perception and causing cloudy vision. This is known as a cataracts. Cataracts are like grey hairs in that everyone will get them eventually. The eye is hollow, filled with clear jelly-like fluid, and lined with a fleshy wall consisting of blood vessels that deliver oxygen to the eye and a thin clear protective layer called the retina, about the thickness of plastic wrap. On the retina is a small dip about the size of the ball point on a pen called the macula, which is exactly where the beam of light that passes through the cornea lands precisely on. The retina is like celluloid film. If it is damaged or torn, especially in an important are, the image is unreliable (i.e. Retinal Detachment). Likewise, if the macula is misshapen or compromised (e.g. Macular Degeneration) the image will still make it to the optic nerve, but distorted or with blind spots. The image is then sent across the retina via the clear film to the optic nerve head which is protruding through the retina. It is important to note that, on the retina are photoreceptors called rods and cones like the pixels of a sensor. They are responsible for one's ability to see certain colors of the spectrum. Think for a moment what would happen if all the red, green, blue, or all three sub pixel colors on an LED display went out. This is how color blindness works. Now think of the optic nerve as a bundle of fiber optic cables that deliver the final image to the brain. if these fiber optic cables become damaged from pressure (i.e. Glaucoma) or otherwise, the field of view becomes narrower and the image becomes darker. The more the damage, the worse the effect becomes. Once the final image makes it to the brain, many factors can alter it. Drugs, health conditions, sleep, and many other things. This is also the stage where the brain attempts to find a neutral reference point, or 'white balance.' So, the truth is, many things affect color perception, but the brain does in fact white balance. Again, hopefully the human eye being analogous to a lens and film is as interesting to you or someone else as it is to me! 1 1
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