Arri ST or SB for documentary film making?

Gillian Donaldson-Selby · July 18

I'm thinking of buying an Arri ST (or better S/B) for documentary film making. It doesn't need to be crystal sync - though that would be nice! I have a few questions...

Are there any recommended UK used film gear suppliers that might have these - or do I need to look on eBay? I would prefer a camera that has been CLAd.

I see on eBay that there are a number of suppliers from Japan that state that their cameras are pristine/like new/have been CLAd. Has anyone had experience with purchasing from Japan?

thanks

Gillian

Aapo Lettinen · July 18

1 hour ago, Gillian Donaldson-Selby said:

I'm thinking of buying an Arri ST (or better S/B) for documentary film making. It doesn't need to be crystal sync - though that would be nice! I have a few questions...

Are there any recommended UK used film gear suppliers that might have these - or do I need to look on eBay? I would prefer a camera that has been CLAd.

I see on eBay that there are a number of suppliers from Japan that state that their cameras are pristine/like new/have been CLAd. Has anyone had experience with purchasing from Japan?

thanks

Gillian

Ask Daniil Nevskij (Kameradoctor), he's in Chatham and can arrange you one of those cameras and CLA it and modify for example PL mount modification, repainting and everything if needed

George Hill · July 18

I have an SB and I love it, I only use the B port. It’s stainless steel which is a lot less prone to wear, I’ve heard that the aluminum ports can get worn down on some cameras. Plus you can get better lenses obviously. I got mine from a US based seller, it was nice to be able to communicate in the same language about the condition of the camera, delivery etc

I you are planning on shooting handheld I really recommend the pistol grip, it feels super locked in and easy to get quick shots in chaotic situations. I’ve done some high speed follow cam shot on skis and had absolutely no worries about dropping the camera

Tyler Purcell · July 18

I shoot documentaries quite a bit and have both hand held (in front of face like the older Arri 16mm cameras) and shoulder mount.

I honestly would never recommend an S or SB/SM. There are many reasons why.

First off, it's heavy. So your arms get tired. Even with the shoulder/chest mount, the camera is horribly annoying and doesn't come off easily. You can't just set it down because you're permanently connected to it with the battery belt. Then you need a huge space to set it down because it doesn't easily come off the shoulder/chest mount. You could design your own shoulder-only mount, but the weight doesn't change much. It's still very much a front heavy camera system due to rear facing viewing only.

Second, this is very important, when you add a zoom lens, your left arm is extended way out in front of you, extremely unnaturally due to how long the camera is. This is a real deal breaker for many DP's with shorter arms, it just makes the thing very uncomfortable to use, especially when you're constantly pulling focus.

Third, the viewing system isn't orientable, tho you can get adaptors, they aren't adjustable. So you're always either looking down or straight. It's also very dark when stopped down, which is something you're always having to do as with doc's you don't control the light much. It's very hard to determine focus as well due to this. The ground glass isn't sliced optic, it's literally just a piece of coated glass.

Fourth, loading 100ft all the time, is a pain in the butt. You have to take the camera down entirely, put it somewhere dust free, open it up and start mucking with it. The amount of material you'll lose in just that process is so annoying. I couldn't imagine trying to shoot something with 100ft loads unless it was literally static and you could shoot it all day. With doc stuff, you need to be as light and run and gun as possible, needing to stop everything to load every 2.7 minutes, is super annoying. For doc work, you really need a quick change camera where you can pre-load magazines and just slam them in when you wanna keep going.

Fifth, they are extremely old and have very little support. They are very robust cameras, designed post war, but they do require lubrication and maintenance. They use more standard ball bearing and needle bearings, which are much easier to get gummed up and cease. Plus the motors are all very old outside of some aftermarket ones like the Tobin crystal motors. So you'll be dealing with both mechanical issues and 70 year old motors, not something you really want to deal with if you want a reliable camera. Yes, if you can find one where the motor has new brushes and bearings, where the movement has been gone through by a professional and you have a receipt for the work done, ok maybe this wouldn't be a big problem. However, most of these cameras have been sitting for 30+ years because they stopped being used in the 70's when the modern cameras dominated. So finding one that's not only seen real use in modern day to prove it works, but also has been serviced, you'll be spending A LOT more money AND not necessarily getting a better camera than something else.

Sixth, there are no creature comforts; No mirror parking (unless you have an aftermarket motor), No video assist, most bodies don't have the light meter door option, no accurate speed control (outside of aftermarket motors), no onboard battery, no electronic footage counter with out of film warning, no super 16 capability (unless you find one that's been converted already, which are very expensive), stuck to vintage/old lenses for the most part due to the lens mount which is nearly impossible to convert today, I could go on all day.

So what are the doc cameras?

CP16R
ACL 1.5 or 2.0
Aaton LTR/XTR
ARRI SR

There are more, but those are the ones supported which can take magazine based 200 and 400ft magazines. The CP16R is pretty widely supported, but requires threading, the other ones do not.

If money is a problem, I get it. However, many people wind up dumping the same amount of money in lower-cost bodies over the time usage, then if they just saved up for the right thing or just rented the right thing. As someone who services and sells motion picture cameras for a living, 9 times out of 10, people who own cameras like the S SM/SB, wind up selling them quickly because they realize the points I made above, make the system really not usable.

With that said, if you want something light, small and low cost that's kickass; Beaulieu 2016. Easy to get working well, has basically every creature comfort imaginable including integrated digital light meter, beautiful bright mirror reflex viewfinder, super small/stubby body for easy hand holding, C mount for lower-cost lenses, 100ft daylight or 200ft magazine, integrated battery, up to 80fps high speed, crystal sync motor for 24/25 fps sound capture, not horribly loud either. That's the camera I carry with me in my backpack for our hikes and BTS material. I just love the camera and it's a great partner to my other more serious cameras like the ACL and XTR Prod.

Simon Wyss · July 18

Why not the Arriflex 16, that’s its designation. It offers a 99-percent-light-in-the-finder system, a very fine ground glass, reverse direction shooting, positive location of lenses, and the three-ports turret. You stated documentary filming which can mean many different things. You probably won’t need the defined positioning of a lens for repeated precision.

Please note that only the feet-frames counter is accurate, the meter and frames counter brings an error of eight and seven percent, respectively.

If noise is no problem, go for it. Else you better think things over or find a blimp. https://www.ebay.com/itm/256462468561

Fabian Schreyer · July 18

2 hours ago, Tyler Purcell said:

No mirror parking (unless you have an aftermarket motor)

My original ARRI A16 St E crystal sync motor comes with mirror parking.

Aapo Lettinen · July 18

Tyler is right that the original 1960's Arri variable/constant motors are really nasty ones. I tried to crystal modify them last year and they are just so old and ridiculous starting current and poor condition brushes and seized bearings and burnt windings and rust and dust all around like it was stored in shipwreck for half a century.

The Arri16S cameras are pretty good but the motors are just absolutely garbage and hands down the weakest link of the entire system. Getting better motors is difficult too, the old tobin etc ones are almost impossible to get and new ones not seemingly made either (Kamran made couple of ones and then seemingly stopped, probably was too costly I believe. I was going to make them out of scratch and tried and tried to get orders but was impossible to fund and I'm not having time anymore nor the loaner camera so discarded the plans).

Arri16s has that insanely stupid 3-motor-revolutions-per-one-frame-shot gear ratio which makes it so much more difficult to build new motors that it is practically not worth it unless doing it as charity work.

By comparison, most cameras with 1:1 gear ratio can use my Universal Motors or their derivatives. For example Kinor16 which is btw pretty good for doc work with 100ft mags, has 400ft ones too and orientable finder and can use much cheaper lenses than Arris

Tyler Purcell · July 19

7 hours ago, Fabian Schreyer said:

My original ARRI A16 St E crystal sync motor comes with mirror parking.

Yes the crystal motors have parking, those came out much later than the cameras original release.

Fabian Schreyer · July 19

Yes, of course, they were not sold in 1952. But as I see it from looking at the marketing material, ARRI tried bundling the crystal motor following its introduction in the 70s to its customers who bought a 16ST. They probably were not too successful, given the fact that there are not that many crystal motors around these days.

Luke Fowler · July 19

If you're interested and serious I have a ARRI ST for sale in Glasgow - you're welcome to come and check it out.
I've shot all my films on one for the last 6 years and love them as an alt. to Bolex - but they're no for everyone...

Gillian Donaldson-Selby · July 20

5 hours ago, Luke Fowler said:

If you're interested and serious I have a ARRI ST for sale in Glasgow - you're welcome to come and check it out.
I've shot all my films on one for the last 6 years and love them as an alt. to Bolex - but they're no for everyone...

Hi Luke. I am interested and would like to know more about your Arri - e.g. Does it come with a lens, 400ft magazine, etc? and of course, what you would be looking for it!

Gillian Donaldson-Selby · July 20

My thanks to everyone who replied to my request. My choice of camera will ultimately be determined by budget (!) and by utility. I hear what has been said about Arri, Beaulieu and Kinor 16 cameras and will weigh up the pros and cons of each.

Dom Jaeger · July 23

A bit late to this discussion, but I wanted to counter some of the criticisms of the Arriflex16St given above.

Different cameras all have their pros and cons.

It's true the Arri 16St is a bit on the heavy side, but it was designed as a hand-holdable camera. There were various shoulder brackets that work surprisingly well when set up properly. It is a turret camera, designed for prime lenses. You can fit a Standard mount zoom but those are quite old now, and they also make the camera front heavy. So it's an old school camera, best used with small primes and a light meter, and a battery in a backpack.

Contrary to the opinion above that the ball bearings "gum up" or that you will encounter mechanical issues, these are virtually indestructable cameras, with no internal electronics to go bad. You can very easily swap motors or have a motor serviced. There is no camera that matches the build quality of an Arriflex, except a Mitchell. These are pin-registerd cameras so the image is always rock steady. You are statistically much more likely to have issues with a Beaulieu or a CP16 or an Eclair or any other camera really. If you can find a 16S/B with one Bayonet mount, it will open up lens options significantly. You can fit mags to a 16St or S/B so you're not limited to 100ft spools as was claimed.

Anything mechanical needs periodic maintenance, but if there is a camera that survives best without it, it's an Arri. The factory lubrication was long lasting, the bearings just don't "gum up" and I've rarely seen one that didn't work unless it was very poorly stored.

Beaulieus are popular with filmmakers who like a fairly lightweight camera, but they are quite fragile and the viewfinder prism often degrades. They use C mount which is not very good for heavy zooms, the batteries are a pain, they don't easily mount on a tripod and there's basically one guy in Sweden in his 70s who can properly service them. The pulldown claw is like a toy compared to an Arriflex movement. The most modern 2016 model is rare and hard to find. But having said all that I know a lot of filmmakers who love their Beaulieus.

CP16Rs were news reel cameras, very quiet and well built but basically heavy bricks that you plonk on a tripod. They can suffer from belt failure and electronic issues, but work well when serviced. Apart from the weight and form factor, their main drawback is the lens mount. Finding lenses in CP mount is difficult, and other lenses don't adapt to it, so the camera really needs a PL front conversion to be workable.

As already mentioned, Daniil Nevskij would be a good person to contact in the UK regarding purchase and service of Arriflexes.

Steve Switaj · July 23

I've been meaning to ask, I have one of these that's been sitting on a shelf for 20 years.

Every once in a while I pick it up and think "I should clean this up a bit and run a roll of film through it"

The parts that look like they need the most help are, unsurprisingly, the rubber bits, namely the eyepiece and the coupling for the motor.

They eyepiece is easy, there are several sellers online, but what do you do about the drive coupling? it looks like it's stretched out, and has hardened, I have no confidence in its grip strength.

Assuming you can even get the part, it looks like quite a bit of the camera has to come apart to install it?

Brandon Paterno · July 23

1 hour ago, Steve Switaj said:

The parts that look like they need the most help are, unsurprisingly, the rubber bits, namely the eyepiece and the coupling for the motor.

The coupling is a pretty common issue. Im a bit surprised it's unavailable publicly, but I think a couple of service centers throughout the US have NOS parts... Ive heard of this getting replaced by DU-all, at least.

20 hours ago, Dom Jaeger said:

Beaulieus are popular with filmmakers who like a fairly lightweight camera, but they are quite fragile and the viewfinder prism often degrades. They use C mount which is not very good for heavy zooms, the batteries are a pain, they don't easily mount on a tripod and there's basically one guy in Sweden in his 70s who can properly service them. The pulldown claw is like a toy compared to an Arriflex movement. The most modern 2016 model is rare and hard to find. But having said all that I know a lot of filmmakers who love their Beaulieus.

Beaulieu is like such a different class of camera versus the CP16 and Arriflex... I suppose pricing wise they're all similar (if the Beaulieu is working and has all the bits) but it is wayyyy more of a little camera that can, as Tyler mentions, be thrown in a backpack and when serviced be expected to be "set up" at a moments notice. The choice comes down to what you're going to see yourself needing when you're in action. CP16 and arriflex are both portable but the footprints hefty. And also, like the CP16, the beaulieus have electric issues, but the lone drive circuit is pretty bog standard with certain failures being identifiable via a handful of flathead screws. The sync hardware on the CP16s are usually dated by natural causes at least, but id imagine many of the ICs that may be required for a failure may have been out of production for a bit. Dunno

[By the end of the year I'm planning to be offering an electronics rebuild for R16s that essentially gives the camera the functionality of the 2016 while also offering other niceties like more power source flexibility and regulated single frame shutter speed controls with customizable interval based behaviors, but the servicing question is pretty big as I'm not so sure if I want to be servicing the cameras as well. Ive found that there are a couple outfits in the US at least which will look at the beaus. And they're also fairly straightforward, much more so than a bolex... ]

Tyler Purcell · July 24

4 hours ago, Steve Switaj said:

I've been meaning to ask, I have one of these that's been sitting on a shelf for 20 years.

90% of them have been doing the same thing and unlike Dom, when I've seen them, they are gummed up because the grease used for the bearings simply goes bad. It turns into a solid or more like molasses. It's not an easy thing to deal with, the entire camera has to be pulled apart. I have worked on their cousin the 16BL quite a bit and it's just not fun. It's part of the reason I don't accept them in for service.

Tyler Purcell · July 24

1 hour ago, Brandon Paterno said:

Beaulieu is like such a different class of camera versus the CP16 and Arriflex... I suppose pricing wise they're all similar (if the Beaulieu is working and has all the bits) but it is wayyyy more of a little camera that can, as Tyler mentions, be thrown in a backpack and when serviced be expected to be "set up" at a moments notice.

Exactly and those people who are lucky enough to own a 2016, understand the benefits. There is no, and I mean zero other cameras like it. The electronic issues are pretty simple to fix and sure they're fragile, but they also have the most rudimentary movement I've ever seen. Stability exists due to the side rail friction pretty much, it's impressive how good that little camera is. For portable MOS work, I have never found anything better and I have shot on a Arri 16 S and M, I also have worked with a 16BL and of course the venerable CP16R, to which I have a special place in my heart for, which is why I'm one of the only guys still working on them in the Untied States.

Brandon Paterno · July 24

36 minutes ago, Tyler Purcell said:

Exactly and those people who are lucky enough to own a 2016, understand the benefits. There is no, and I mean zero other cameras like it. The electronic issues are pretty simple to fix and sure they're fragile, but they also have the most rudimentary movement I've ever seen. Stability exists due to the side rail friction pretty much, it's impressive how good that little camera is. For portable MOS work, I have never found anything better and I have shot on a Arri 16 S and M, I also have worked with a 16BL and of course the venerable CP16R, to which I have a special place in my heart for, which is why I'm one of the only guys still working on them in the Untied States.

they are really great cameras, and in my eye arguably the best in that class of consumer/prosumer everyday cams. i wish they made more of the 2016s. i’m a little surprised that they didn’t transition to the worm gear movement on the later production r16s, the bevel gear doesn’t seem so ideal

Tyler Purcell · July 24

27 minutes ago, Brandon Paterno said:

they are really great cameras, and in my eye arguably the best in that class of consumer/prosumer everyday cams. i wish they made more of the 2016s. i’m a little surprised that they didn’t transition to the worm gear movement on the later production r16s, the bevel gear doesn’t seem so ideal

Yep exactly. I have tried to get more 2016 bodies, so I'll have a backup and potentially convert one of them to Super 16, which outside of the ground glass, doesn't seem too radically crazy. Just need to machine a new shutter block/gate assembly and front housing.

People underestimate the Beaulieu's because they're fragile and they are. Man, I've had nothing but issues with broken cables, grounding issues and a whole host of calibration problems. All of them are easy for a tech to fix, but man I can get why consumers walked away. I also understand why Beaulieu struggled at the end, they were pretty advanced but I think also everyone thought they were troublesome.

The bevel drive sucks, but I bet you could adapt the R16's to worm gear drive by buying matching gear sets because they're so darn similar in design and placement of components.

Aapo Lettinen · July 24

7 hours ago, Brandon Paterno said:

The sync hardware on the CP16s are usually dated by natural causes at least, but id imagine many of the ICs that may be required for a failure may have been out of production for a bit.

CP16 cameras have two custom made hybrid ic circuits which are only found on these cameras. None of them have been made in decades and it is insanely expensive to get them remade, it is absolutely not worth it not even with thousand paid orders.

Those circuits should be possible to reproduce on tiny open circuit boards using tiniest discrete components and multilayer pcb of over dozen layers. Easier than hybrid ic reproduction but again not worth it. Too much work and costs and the features fall short compared to making completely new electronics. Poor price-quality ratio.

The best option I can think of it that I would make a cheaper diy assembled kit of my 45-speed cp16r electronics kit. I can make the difficult parts as small modules which assembled and tested by me and the end user solders the easy parts on the circuit board and attaches the readily made modules. If simplifying connections and using normal crystal instead of tcxo it would be possible to make easy-to-assemble diy electronics kit for something like 400usd including shipping. This is absolutely the best option to repair cp16r cameras, you keep the original electric motor and replace everything else with my new electronics. I still have two of the readily assembled 45speed tcxo board kits though if someone wants the best version. Making the diy kit cheap would necessitate cutting some corners on IO connections and using normal crystal to keep modules small but it is still incredible value compared to the original electronics and all kits still have the same 45 crystal speeds, manual inching and shutter parking

Brandon Paterno · July 24

9 hours ago, Tyler Purcell said:

Just need to machine a new shutter block/gate assembly and front housing.

I'd think there'd be a benefit to also making a new sliding mirror plate as well? To ensure the same starting tolerances, have the guides sit a bit deeper towards the turret. And also make the turret thicker and or harder...

And in an ideal world build a new enclosure too, mechanically isolate the movement/transport from the chassis... The chassis and its soft and weak alloy don't do the camera any favors.

9 hours ago, Tyler Purcell said:

People underestimate the Beaulieu's because they're fragile and they are. Man, I've had nothing but issues with broken cables, grounding issues and a whole host of calibration problems. All of them are easy for a tech to fix, but man I can get why consumers walked away. I also understand why Beaulieu struggled at the end, they were pretty advanced but I think also everyone thought they were troublesome.

Yeah, the electronics feel like such an afterthought. The ones I've bought broken mostly are so because of broken/cooked traces. Though I can imagine that during heavy use, that little guide bracket that the pulldown claw slides against could come loose. Basic, cheap adjustment that techs can deal with without necessarily needing to remove the movement from the chassis, but I could imagine put these out of commission fairly often. Not to mention that the transport claw is always sliding against the dimpled steel surface of the camera body. These were "cheap" cameras after all.

These things are major quality markers that keep the Beau, K3(ugh, soz), bolex within that class of no-frills small gauge camera. Those three cut similar corners transport wise...

I've never gone deep into an Arri ST, but the more complex cam movement withstands well (enough) for a reason. They really do sell fairly cheap for what they are, but I suppose it's all about use case and service access. It's funny but I've really only seen issues with those old style Arris related to contemporary battery upgrades and motor (electronic) faults

9 hours ago, Tyler Purcell said:

The bevel drive sucks, but I bet you could adapt the R16's to worm gear drive by buying matching gear sets because they're so darn similar in design and placement of components.

I've been looking into it. There are some options but I really don't love not being able to see and evaluate the quality of the gearing without ordering a fairly large sampling or rolling the dice on some aliexpress stuff. The other options seem to be nylon ones sold by RC car enthusiasts, but quality is still a question. (excuses, excuses... I'll have to bite the bullet someday)

Dom Jaeger · July 25

14 hours ago, Brandon Paterno said:

These things are major quality markers that keep the Beau, K3(ugh, soz), bolex within that class of no-frills small gauge camera. Those three cut similar corners transport wise...

Having worked on all these cameras for 20 plus years, I rate Bolexes above Beaulieus and way above K3s, at least in terms of mechanical durability and the ability to be calibrated to work well. Bolex Service manuals are so far beyond anything available for other amateur cameras, and if you have all the Bolex tools and jigs like I do, you can really bring a Bolex back to excellent working condition. They just work, easy to load, lots of cool features, plenty of cameras around to use for parts. Their main drawback is the viewfinder, but every camera has some Achilles heel and I think the 10x or 13x finders are still quite useable.

I find so many problems with Beaulieus despite loving their form factor and the clever mirror shutter. And K3s are so hit and miss it’s not funny.

Brandon Paterno · July 25

12 minutes ago, Dom Jaeger said:

Having worked on all these cameras for 20 plus years, I rate Bolexes above Beaulieus and way above K3s, at least in terms of mechanical durability and the ability to be calibrated to work well. Bolex Service manuals are so far beyond anything available for other amateur cameras, and if you have all the Bolex tools and jigs like I do, you can really bring a Bolex back to excellent working condition. They just work, easy to load, lots of cool features, plenty of cameras around to use for parts. Their main drawback is the viewfinder, but every camera has some Achilles heel and I think the 10x or 13x finders are still quite useable.

I find so many problems with Beaulieus despite loving their form factor and the clever mirror shutter. And K3s are so hit and miss it’s not funny.

can't argue with the bolex service manual. Art in and of itself.

If I could afford a Rex 5 I'd be all over it but I know id still reach for the beau just for that viewfinder and size.

Ive never personally used a K3 but people seem to just love to dick around with them. there's some guy putting the K3 into a milled aluminum chassis. For 3 minutes of film...? ive never heard good about the cam from my mentors or peers so it feels like the k3 love is a psyop, haha... The K3 always rears its head as its just so damn cheap

Tyler Purcell · July 25

51 minutes ago, Brandon Paterno said:

Ive never personally used a K3 but people seem to just love to dick around with them. there's some guy putting the K3 into a milled aluminum chassis. For 3 minutes of film...? ive never heard good about the cam from my mentors or peers so it feels like the k3 love is a psyop, haha... The K3 always rears its head as its just so damn cheap

The K3 movement is very good, the rest of the camera isn't. What ya gotta do is pull the movement out and stick it in a new box. Keep the polished mirror shutter. Use a different ground glass or maybe a video assist as the viewfinder without a ground glass. Then you've got the beginnings of a very basic camera. Heck you could run the entire thing off a single timing belt and some plastic 3D printed gears. The movement can be made pretty quiet, I've done some testing.

I was going to use the K3 for my development camera, but I want to use a beam splitter video tap as the viewfinder system, so we'll be using an ACL movement instead. The ACL movement has a more advanced pull-down stroke which is quieter and WAY simpler. Plus without the oscillating mirror, things will run a lot quieter. The ACL movement is also very easy to copy. It's practically the same thing in the A minima pulldown.

Aristeidis Tyropolis · July 26

On 7/25/2026 at 6:01 AM, Brandon Paterno said:

there's some guy putting the K3 into a milled aluminum chassis. For 3 minutes of film...? ive never heard good about the cam from my mentors or peers so it feels like the k3 love is a psyop, haha... The K3 always rears its head as its just so damn cheap

As if there's any modicum of "reasonability" in the age of multiple "k's" of resolution, lightning fast solid state storage and exceptionally sensitive sensors nowadays.

I for one am thousands of feet in shooting my documentary with my K3, it was one of those "misses" that became a "hit" eventually after Aapo's motor modification and a CLA. Sending another 1k feet roughly of shot footage this week for dev/scanning, the photo below is from footage already in the can.