Who will fix our film cameras in 30 years?

[Aapo Lettinen]

3 hours ago, Brandon Paterno said:

Arri and their little black boxes are a real thing I think

ive heard that the software on these (it's microcontroller city baby!!) is locked off and certain fairly critical adjustments are just not possible outside of authorized arri service centers. So there's the problem of reverse engineering any of the communication protocols to determine certain electronic faults that are likely present on the hardware itself but not accessible without some sort of decryption... On the other hand I do think that some of the parts can be rebuilt by way of swapping the write locked components like microcontrollers to equivalent MCU SKU's. But then getting everything to work together nice.... those 416s are real beauties leveraging a good bit of software magic

Since the cameras are so f*** expensive they're not gonna end up in the hands of people who actually have an interest in looking through the protocol. I know I'm gonna be looking into Arri LDS because we need a test apparatus for isolating some data readout issues -- ill be able to really look at the thing because im in a position where I can handle the comically expensive lenses that use the protocol, and I can probe them safely (some sort of CAN derivative). But probably at some point the juice won't be worth the squeeze and these problems will be at the hands of arri while they still support the protocol/exist at all. time is a cruel mistress!!

You won't be able in practice to repair boards if the microcontroller is faulty. You don't have the software and even if you would write new one which can take one, two, three years then there is the issue that you don't have those retro microcontrollers to flash it to. 

It is always either too much work to make any sense or too impossible to arrange logistically because obsolete rare parts that it is way easier to just design everything from scratch. A completely new board design, a completely new software. Using only modern components. 

That is why it is so difficult and expensive to maintain complex electronics long term. You need a ground up redesign every 15 years to keep them running. Huge task, very expensive, and it is not similar than the old one. It can be better in best case but it is not the same. Black boxes can't be replaced if you don't know what is inside and the outer shell of the box is not even sold anymore. 

Normal repair procedure with complex boards is to replace the whole board to get the device working again and then figure out afterwards what was wrong with it and if design changes are needed. Manual repairs are time consuming and thus expensive, they rarely make much sense because they weaken the board and make it even more unreliable. Robots assemble the boards originally and a robot can make completely new board faster than a human manually figuring out the issue and manually repairing tiny stuff.

I don't repair my tiniest boards either. They are made affordable enough that can be replaced with new one easily. Boards can't be small if you need to make them easy to manually repair and it limits using conformal coating too so you need to make the board 4x the size and less sturdy and less reluable to make it manually repairable.

The best way is to use smd parts and mcu's on modules which can be replaced relatively affordably and then make the rest of the device with tht components so that those are easier to repair. You buy spare modules and stock them. Then repairing other stuff with standard off the shelf components. This does work fine but the whole device needs to be specifically designed for that, otherwise it is not possible.

Almost 100% of devices are made with replace-only boards. It is just too impossible to make it both small device and with easy to repair boards. Making a suitcase sized cellphone for example

[Aapo Lettinen]

this is how one designs easily user repairable devices. Difficult to solder black box stuff is in tiny modules and the whole rest of the main board is specifically designed to easily manually solder with tht components. And each connection designed to be easy solder with less than ideal soldering skills and poor quality tools.

You don't want to start manually repairing any joints on that module even when it is relatively simple. Messing up 0603 sized tiny parts under conformal coating is not practical. And again black box stuff. The module is affordable enough that average cp16r hobby user could stock 5 or 10 of them if one wants. Just buy spares and stock them. Sell to others later for profit if you want. 

Designing the system like that to be repairable takes 7 or 8 x the time and is more expensive. The components are more expensive too. I can make the kits affordable because users assemble the main board and I only make the modules and software

[Aapo Lettinen]

You can design a new black box module with same size and connections but different MCUs and software. That is one of the ideas of modules. 

You don't attach mcu directly to the huge mainboard. You are married to that MCU exact type and model and package then. With intermediate module you can redesign the whole module but keep the mainboard the same.

These need to be pre planned and it is more expensive to design the device. But you need to plan for manual repairs if you want manual repairs

[Jon O'Brien]

If an SR board popped its clogs, could it be replaced by an entirely new board, or would it be impractically expensive? I just ask out of curiosity. I'm kind of past caring about whether film will survive --- nice it if does, but I leave it there. Mind you, I'm asking about an SR, not an SR2, or 3, or 416, which presumably have more complex electronics, especially the 416. And I'd be happy if it just ran, at 24 fps, and didn't do anything else, but kept constant speed, mainly for exposure reasons, not even thinking of sync sound at this point. Surely these things are just mechanics that need a motor to run them. How complex can it be? But I'm no engineer. Just an arty type.

[Jon O'Brien]

Could be a sideline thing for Panavision -- repairing Arri film cameras for private owners. Since they seem to have the machine shop gear and expertise for it. Just an idea. Don't know if it would work or if they would even be remotely interested. Yes, I do know they are a rental-only business but no reason they couldn't branch out into other profitable work. Like I said, just an idea.

[Aapo Lettinen]

1 hour ago, Jon O'Brien said:

If an SR board popped its clogs, could it be replaced by an entirely new board, or would it be impractically expensive? I just ask out of curiosity. I'm kind of past caring about whether film will survive --- nice it if does, but I leave it there. Mind you, I'm asking about an SR, not an SR2, or 3, or 416, which presumably have more complex electronics, especially the 416. And I'd be happy if it just ran, at 24 fps, and didn't do anything else, but kept constant speed, mainly for exposure reasons, not even thinking of sync sound at this point. Surely these things are just mechanics that need a motor to run them. How complex can it be? But I'm no engineer. Just an arty type.

Of course a completely new board can be made, as long as it is new and not trying to make a reproduction of the old board.

The SR1 and 2 can be run with similar type of technology I use for cp16r45speed for example. The only reason I haven't made one is because I don't have personal SR camera to need it for and people have not paid for the design work to order boards. I need the camera to design it and getting the camera here for a year is the issue. 

And compatibility with original accessories is usually a bit tricky to arrange without having all those accessories with the camera to test out at the same time. 

I did actually briefly had a SR2 electronics project but the owner lost his camera to thieves and never got it back. Was going to use original motor but make completely new boards and oled display with counters, kind of same style than sr3advanced but newer technology and better display.

With the camera lost the project was scrapped. I can't afford to purchase my own sr with todays prices without people paying for the boards in advance. People will want to see the final one before paying anything. Chicken vs egg situation, cannot start without getting free camera basically. 

Otherwise fully possible and not even the most difficult thing I have designed, it is on par of the gsmo45speed I am making at the moment

[Dave Beling]

Interesting topic since I purchased SR2 a month ago. Being ex film school gear it stopped working after 2 days. Out of curiosity I called Arri HQ in Munich to hear what they can suggest. Response was that they don’t repair film cameras anymore (duh), but suggested that I can reach Danny at Cinefacilities. Then I realized I know just 2 repair shops in Europe which can help. And it’s like only 15 (?) years since film stopped being dominant format in productions? So what will next 30 years bring? I believe huge studios will indeed keep the gear working, and Kodak will support them with stock. Unless of course trends shift from "the film look" into something else. But the rest of us? 

[Aapo Lettinen]

The software is complex. Electrically a newly made board is relatively simple because software replaces most of the physical parts.

That is, though, the reason why the software based boards are almost impossible to repair. Most discreet components are just support stuff like power regulators and resistors. Capacitors and connectors are the main failure point. The most vulnerable component is the microcontroller which cannot be repaired or replaced because not having the software or even similar blank parts after 30 years. If a board fails it is the connectors, caps or the power regulator 70% of the time and for the rest 30% the actual microcontroller is damaged and you need a complete replacement board.

Making stuff with software is so much cheaper in large batches due to simpler circuit boards with less parts that one could afford multiple spares. That is the whole point but people often just buy one without seeing the benefit of having a spare module or spare board for safer future. 

When the original designers are gone or the infrastructure lost to make original spares then one often needs complete redesign to get the device working again. That is huge waste compared to just buying one spare board with the device when ordering it. But 30% saved is money used on something else, probably on film stock and the next generation will handle the aging gear one did not buy spare parts for 😅 

[Aapo Lettinen]

17 minutes ago, Dave Beling said:

Interesting topic since I purchased SR2 a month ago. Being ex film school gear it stopped working after 2 days. Out of curiosity I called Arri HQ in Munich to hear what they can suggest. Response was that they don’t repair film cameras anymore (duh), but suggested that I can reach Danny at Cinefacilities. Then I realized I know just 2 repair shops in Europe which can help. And it’s like only 15 (?) years since film stopped being dominant format in productions? So what will next 30 years bring? I believe huge studios will indeed keep the gear working, and Kodak will support them with stock. Unless of course trends shift from "the film look" into something else. But the rest of us? 

It is best if you can find someone repairing the original boards. They are pretty sturdy and should last quite well after repair. Replacements are running out quickly though so not likely getting it fully replaced I think.

It would be still possible for me to design replacement electronics for SR but would need to start in December2026 latest and get other projects out of the way first. And get a SR camera here for about 12 months which I can freely take apart without liability issues.

I would make a module based system with proprietary software running small modules which are affordable enough to buy spares, they cannot be repaired but one can buy multiple spares if needed.

And the main board user repairable almost-open-source circuit board which is easy to reproduce from gerber files if needed or one can buy spare board bases even if one wants. I just want to make modules and software so it would be fine for me to have the other parts of the system freely available for user repairs.

Try to get the original repaired first. If it seems impossible then we can check if the camera could be used as reference to make completely new electronics. Would need to know before Christmas to have possibility to make it as 2028 is completely different work and not making crystal stuff anymore in 2028

[Dave Beling]

24 minutes ago, Aapo Lettinen said:

Try to get the original repaired first. If it seems impossible then we can check if the camera could be used as reference to make completely new electronics. Would need to know before Christmas to have possibility to make it as 2028 is completely different work and not making crystal stuff anymore in 2028

Will let you know when Danny reaches me with info what he found out. 

[Jeff Bernstein]

Good reader, most intelligent reader, please contemplate the following. ¶ Quintilian described, almost as an aside, the basics of the Latin language in his Institutio Oratoria, 1.5.17–33, remarking, for example, on pronunciation. Without this little bit of writing, we would know much less about the entirety of the Latin language. ¶ This manuscript, like all other writing from the ancient world, including Homer and The Oresteia, was nearly lost; and reappeared, like the others, in the early middle ages—let’s generalise and say 1,000 years passed between “vanishing from the public eye” and “reappearing in Europe”.

 

The epic of our history coming to be : the handwriting that saved everything (so to speak)

[Brandon Paterno]

8 hours ago, Aapo Lettinen said:

Almost 100% of devices are made with replace-only boards. It is just too impossible to make it both small device and with easy to repair boards. Making a suitcase sized cellphone for example

The clock is always ticking...

[Giray Izcan]

In my opinion, in 30 years, film will not exist. In 30 years, people won't care about film look as digital will become their norm.

[Tyler Purcell]

2 hours ago, Giray Izcan said:

In my opinion, in 30 years, film will not exist. In 30 years, people won't care about film look as digital will become their norm.

Yea, I mean western civilization globally is in trouble, I can't imagine in 30 years people worrying about film, when food insecurity, lack of jobs and super storms caused by climate change, take up most of our collective time. This always happens to me, the things I love die off because of greedy people in power. I still predict the cost of motion picture film will rise to the point where most people shooting it today, will be forced to stop within the next 5 years. I've been on that fence post for over a year. 

[Noé Cornago]

On 9/2/2026 at 9:15 PM, Tyler Purcell said:

related

 

The main question I’d love to ask is this:

 

If you all, Dom Jaeger, Tyler, Danny, Aapo, and everyone else who’s chimed in, had to give some tips to someone looking to learn basic service tasks on an SR2 (replacing a belt on an SR mag, or greasing one, for example), where would you tell them to start?

 

Would it make sense to buy a broken SR mag and try disassembling it myself, just to understand how it actually works mechanically?

 

I don’t have any technicians near me who could teach or mentor me in person, but I’d love to build up at least a basic understanding, enough to troubleshoot or fix minor issues on my SR2 myself, rather than shipping it off every time something small goes wrong.

 

Thanks again everyone for your answers, it’s genuinely interesting to read the different perspectives.

 

Noé

[Aapo Lettinen]

4 hours ago, Noé Cornago said:

 

 

The main question I’d love to ask is this:

 

If you all, Dom Jaeger, Tyler, Danny, Aapo, and everyone else who’s chimed in, had to give some tips to someone looking to learn basic service tasks on an SR2 (replacing a belt on an SR mag, or greasing one, for example), where would you tell them to start?

 

Would it make sense to buy a broken SR mag and try disassembling it myself, just to understand how it actually works mechanically?

 

I don’t have any technicians near me who could teach or mentor me in person, but I’d love to build up at least a basic understanding, enough to troubleshoot or fix minor issues on my SR2 myself, rather than shipping it off every time something small goes wrong.

 

Thanks again everyone for your answers, it’s genuinely interesting to read the different perspectives.

 

Noé

If you want to learn about mags it is certainly best to have a spare magazine you can take apart and which does not need to work.

Used sr mags should be relatively cheap, couple of hundred tops. If you are in Europe I could sell one too, have a spare sr2 s16 mag which has worn plastic gear but otherwise seems it could work after cla

[Clark Nikolai]

22 hours ago, Giray Izcan said:

In my opinion, in 30 years, film will not exist. In 30 years, people won't care about film look as digital will become their norm.

It might already be the case now with some people. Grain and other film artifacts are just another visual effect to help convey a mood or time period. It's just that some go so far as to actually shoot on film for that effect. 

[Tyler Purcell]

9 hours ago, Noé Cornago said:

If you all, Dom Jaeger, Tyler, Danny, Aapo, and everyone else who’s chimed in, had to give some tips to someone looking to learn basic service tasks on an SR2 (replacing a belt on an SR mag, or greasing one, for example), where would you tell them to start?

Would it make sense to buy a broken SR mag and try disassembling it myself, just to understand how it actually works mechanically?

My dad was an electronics/mechanical tech for ever, he did some engineering on both fronts. So he taught me a lot and I utilized his teachings throughout my childhood to secure really good technical jobs like being a Sony Broadcast VTR repair tech and eventually moving into computers, with surface mount part replacement skills. When I started in VTR repair, they'd give me junk machines to experiment with, using the service manual and service tools. That's the best way I learn anyway. Some of them I'd get working, some of them (they were all older throw away formats anyway) I didn't get working. That experimental phase is what I used to build my skills. Once I graduated that, I learned about the jigs, calibrating head penetration and such, then diagnosing board issues with an oscilloscope. I did that in my teens, long before I had even shot a single roll of color 16mm or 35mm film. So I've always been in the technical side of things and translating those skills into film cameras was pretty easy. I made the conscious decision over a decade ago, to make the transition into film cameras because people were dumping them for cheap. So it felt like a good time to at least learn about them a bit. Nobody had any idea the cost of film cameras would skyrocket so much. Back then I got an SR that had been in a basement during Katrina. I got a CP16 that had been in storage for 30 years and was literally one with the case foam. I got a few Bolex's and even an Aaton LTR. I had a pretty good career at the time, so it was more of a hobby. I didn't even think about turning it into a career until I got proper training, which I did for over a year with one of the best/top techs in the entire country. That kinda gave me the missing pieces, the "why" things are done a certain way, rather than simply HOW to do it. I already knew the how, this isn't rocket science, especially with a service manual's numbers and special tools. 

In terms of servicing cameras, there are a lot of camera-specific tools, jigs and more generic calibration tools which are critical to have for certain tasks. You can't really calibrate cameras and get them working properly without them. Where I agree that service manuals are important, they aren't super important for taking things apart and putting them back together again, they ARE important for the numbers and what tool goes where. For instance, if you don't know penetration numbers for an Aaton movement, you can't actually take it apart, as you will never get it back together again and run film properly. Other cameras like the SR, that number isn't AS important. So each platform has its issues and if you don't know them, you may walk right into a trap that you can't ever solve. You may just be stuck with a broken camera forever. 

Out of all the platforms I've worked on, I do think the SR platform is one of the best because it's modular. That to me is critical when doing anything, because you can take individual complete components out of the body and work on them individually. Where some cameras like the Aaton's, CP16's, Bolex's they can be more challenging because of how each of the components interface with one another. Like, you can't even test them unless they're inside the camera. The SR you can, which is a game changer for a service tech. 

The SR magazine for instance, the clamshell covers are held by screws on both sides which screw into little spacer shafts. So if you unscrew one side, sometimes the entire shaft AND other side spins, this is annoying. They're also steel screws, so old/bad water damaged mags, can be just impossible to get apart without drilling them out. If the screws do come out, the supply side is what you take out first, but the counter is there and if you just yank it out, you'll damage the counter. One "got ya" on the entire mag really.  Rollers need to be lubed and the shafts come right out to drop lube on them. The sprocket drive area needs to be cleaned, the guides as well. The tension on the take up checked with Arri's special tool. Then to get the belt out, you need to pull out the entire sprocket shaft. The screw on the end of the shaft comes out and then the shaft pulls out the take up side. You don't need to pull it out entirely, just enough to get it past the sprocket, so you can yank that assembly out. It's not too tricky if the mag is in good shape, but it's a steel part, so it rusts badly. So it can be a nightmare to get out. This is why many people will say don't bother and send it to a tech, because that's where experience comes in to play. The SR mags have other issues like the counter system getting out of whack, the  tracks on the film guides failing/cracking, the upper part of the pressure plate, scratching on the film (fixed on the SR3s), etc. 

I have wanted to do a training series, but frankly I can't imagine training someone without the proper tools. 

Edited September 5 by Tyler Purcell

[Simon Wyss]

I rely about half on the professional formation I got during the apprenticeship to become a mechanic and about half on my own brainpower. That is necessary in the world of mechanics, because the field of endeavour is so vast. The early motion-picture cameras were made of two or three different metals, steel, brass, bronze. Wooden housing. Then came aluminium, later the plastics. Same with steam locomotives, mostly steels and brass. Clockworks, phonograph motors, telephone dialing mechanisms, generally just steels and bronze.

An electric motor has long been made of alpha iron sheet, copper wire, and a steel shaft.

I think it is very helpful to go down to these basics. Start to understand gear trains. The most important aspect of a film movie camera is how the film is treated, how it’s guided and moved.

[Aristeidis Tyropolis]

So, to conclude:

The moral of the story is to not have (prey maybe?) an expensive and complicated film camera break down on you or keep enough money aside to be able to fix it by sending it somewhere appropriate.

Find consolation (or none whatsoever) as we were astutely reminded, in the fact that some global knowledge was lost for a thousand years+.

To quote the great philosopherJoseph Tribiani, it's all a "Moo" point.

 

 

 

[Aapo Lettinen]

On 9/4/2026 at 6:49 AM, Aapo Lettinen said:

this is how one designs easily user repairable devices. Difficult to solder black box stuff is in tiny modules and the whole rest of the main board is specifically designed to easily manually solder with tht components. And each connection designed to be easy solder with less than ideal soldering skills and poor quality tools.

You don't want to start manually repairing any joints on that module even when it is relatively simple. Messing up 0603 sized tiny parts under conformal coating is not practical. And again black box stuff. The module is affordable enough that average cp16r hobby user could stock 5 or 10 of them if one wants. Just buy spares and stock them. Sell to others later for profit if you want. 

Designing the system like that to be repairable takes 7 or 8 x the time and is more expensive. The components are more expensive too. I can make the kits affordable because users assemble the main board and I only make the modules and software

 

[Noé Cornago]

On 9/5/2026 at 4:45 PM, Aapo Lettinen said:

If you want to learn about mags it is certainly best to have a spare magazine you can take apart and which does not need to work.

Used sr mags should be relatively cheap, couple of hundred tops. If you are in Europe I could sell one too, have a spare sr2 s16 mag which has worn plastic gear but otherwise seems it could work after cla

Hey Aapo, do you still have a mag for sale?

[Aapo Lettinen]

1 hour ago, Noé Cornago said:

Hey Aapo, do you still have a mag for sale?

Sold the sr mag last month

[Dom Jaeger]

On 9/5/2026 at 8:16 PM, Noé Cornago said:

If you all, Dom Jaeger, Tyler, Danny, Aapo, and everyone else who’s chimed in, had to give some tips to someone looking to learn basic service tasks on an SR2 (replacing a belt on an SR mag, or greasing one, for example), where would you tell them to start?

Would it make sense to buy a broken SR mag and try disassembling it myself, just to understand how it actually works mechanically?

I don’t have any technicians near me who could teach or mentor me in person, but I’d love to build up at least a basic understanding, enough to troubleshoot or fix minor issues on my SR2 myself, rather than shipping it off every time something small goes wrong.

Hi Noe,

Sorry I missed your question earlier. 

SR mags are fairly straightforward to service, at least compared to the cameras. Ideally someone experienced would take you through a basic procedure, just pulling one apart doesn't necessarily tell you much about how they should be working, or how to identify and fix issues. 

The basic procedure I go through is this:

Give the mag a physical inspection - look for corrosion, paint deterioration, deformation, state of the drive gear, the door hinges, are the doors latching closed properly, test the mag release lever, how does the take-up feel to turn and to slip, does the feed spindle turn smoothly but with some resistance, are the roller arms stiff or not latching. The pressure plate has specific spring tensions (both the whole plate and the smaller plate in the middle on standard mags) which can be checked with a tension gauge. Check the pressure plate chromed surfaces for burrs or scratches. Remove the throat to check the sprockets, rollers and guides, clean out any film chips, oil the rollers. 

Then refit the throat and test the mag on a camera without film, check it latches properly to the camera, check take-up tension with the Arri tool and note how smoothly the clutch slips. Adjust the tension if necessary with a small pin tool. Check the footage counter arm is working and the pointer is accurate, check the accuracy of the second dial counter on the side on older mags. 

Test it with some film, listen for odd sounds, jerkiness, scratching. 

Then service anything that I identified as needing attention. This part needs experience. Could be corrosion, deformed compartment plates, bent door latches, sticky clutch, jerky feed spindle, stiff roller arms, frozen dial counter, damaged drive gear teeth, etc. Then a final scratch and noise test. 

I may have a source for Arri mag take-up tension tools for sale.

The camera body is a lot more complicated, requires more specialised tools and experience to work on, and it's easy to really screw something up, so I would not recommend trying to work on that without expert guidance.

Happy to answer any questions you have via DM.

 

Edited October 6 by Dom Jaeger

[Noé Cornago]

7 hours ago, Dom Jaeger said:

Hi Noe,

Sorry I missed your question earlier. 

SR mags are fairly straightforward to service, at least compared to the cameras. Ideally someone experienced would take you through a basic procedure, just pulling one apart doesn't necessarily tell you much about how they should be working, or how to identify and fix issues. 

The basic procedure I go through is this:

Give the mag a physical inspection - look for corrosion, paint deterioration, deformation, state of the drive gear, are the door hinges loose, are the doors latching closed properly, check the mag release lever, how does the take-up feel to turn and to slip, does the feed spindle turn smoothly but with some resistance, are the roller arms stiff and do they latch. The pressure plate has specific spring tensions (both the whole plate and the smaller plate in the middle on standard mags) which can be checked with a tension gauge. Check the pressure plate chromed surfaces for burrs or scratches. Remove the throat to check the sprockets, rollers and guides, clean out any film chips, oil the rollers. 

Then refit the throat and test the mag on a camera without film, check it latches properly to the camera, check take-up tension with the Arri tool and note how smoothly the clutch slips. Adjust the tension if necessary with a small pin tool. Check the footage counter arm is working and the pointer is accurate, check the accuracy of the second dial counter on the side on older mags. 

Test it with some film, listen for odd sounds, jerkiness, scratching. 

Then service anything that I identified as needing attention. This part needs experience. Could be corrosion, deformed compartment plates, bent door latches, sticky clutch, jerky feed spindle, stiff roller arms, frozen dial counter, damaged drive gear teeth, etc. Then a final scratch and noise test. 

I may have a source for Arri mag take-up tension tools for sale.

The camera body is a lot more complicated, requires more specialised tools and experience to work on, and it's easy to really screw something up, so I would not recommend trying to work on that without expert guidance.

Happy to answer any questions you have via DM.

 

Hey Dom,

Thanks a lot for your answer, I'll look into doing that, I've shot you a pm through Facebook as I also have a small issue with my 435 mags.

Thanks a lot!