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RED - A hoax?


Arni Heimir

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Quite frankly I'm more interested by the performance of the camera (4K resolution) than by the price, because that will be the deciding factor whether I'll consider using it or not. I want to know how it compares to 35mm, period.

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The big deal and revolution will be a breakthrough in technology and capabilities. Sorry if price is your only measure, but sometimes quality is the biggest performance issue.

 

We're talking professional motion picture imaging and capture. It's not a mass market thing. RED wants to bring out the best product it can, and price it as low as possible to get it well-situated into the industry. The Dalsa ORIGIN is an interesting technological leap, but workflow and cost of use have contributed to keeping its entry into the market a slow one.

 

If RED makes a camera system that does everything they claim and prices it at, say, $100,000, then that is an incredible bargain and they might sell, say, 500 of them. $50 million in revenue is pretty good, especially if it represents perhaps $10 million in development and production costs (maybe $5 million each). If they sell them for $25k each, then they'd need to sell 2000 units to equal the same revenue, but the costs might be $20 million, so they would have to sell 4000 units to see a similar profit. That's a LOT harder to do, especially for what is not a mass market item. Perhaps in a decade or so it can be, but not now.

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There's a new interview with Ted Schilowitz here:

http://www.podcast.net/show/184

 

Notes of interest:

 

Hosts banter casually that it will be $15k range - but the RED person did not. RED person implies that they want to bring the technology down from cameras which would cost "a couple hundred thousand" down towards the consumer range which implies to me under $100k. So there's the pre-NAB price target, 15 to 100 thousand.

 

Lenses will be PL mount.... which implies that you will choose how much money your lense will cost?

 

Sounds like various codecs will be options to record. Focusing on Wavelt Based

 

Will use Digital Magazine Drives as a recording option.

 

Mentioned something about "a year from now what we're looking at..." [may change] - so don't look for the camera within a year.

 

probably 12 bit per pixel - possibly more, at least 10 bit quality with all the codec. They want better dynamic range as anything on the market.

 

First showing at NAB is just showing developement of design and workflow. They will annonce RED and AJA link. booth SU1401

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I suppose it's worth pointing out that the recent Silicon Imaging announcement goes a long way towards fulfilling the sub-$20,000 indie film maker's dream that a lot of people have been hoping RED will turn out to be. I understand that RED is a lot more ambitious project, so I'm not really comparing the two. But still, we're obviously a lot further along in the evolution of this technology than even I thought.

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I suppose it's worth pointing out that the recent Silicon Imaging announcement goes a long way towards fulfilling the sub-$20,000 indie film maker's dream that a lot of people have been hoping RED will turn out to be. I understand that RED is a lot more ambitious project, so I'm not really comparing the two. But still, we're obviously a lot further along in the evolution of this technology than even I thought.

 

The Silicon Imaging camera does exist, unlike the RED.

 

People will be getting a chance to test and play with the new Silicon Imaging camera at NAB and it's in the sub $20k the price range that people are discussing. You can also use Super 16 lenses on it.

 

The Infinity also looks like an interesting camera with JPEG 2000.

Edited by Brian Drysdale
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well....their website has a countdown and nothing else. hmmmm.....seems to point to NAB. I hope this isnt a lame cop out, like they show up with a non working prototype prop.

 

They have already said they will not have anything but their intentions to share. Specifications and plans.... and a price. Nothing but vapor and enthusiasm and a lot of funding which gives them an edge.

 

Do not expect a RED prototype until at the earliest 2007 NAB or maybe... even later... This sentence is my own not official news... that will come in five days.

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The site appears to be working, looks like they are just using a homepage that is ticking down to their NAB launch. Those on this board who are attending NAB can tell us all about it.

 

Along this same vein as a "cheap" alternative to film, has any one yet shot a feature on HDV and transfered it to 35mm? Have you seen it projected? Any thing out there that can be rented on DVD?

 

If not why not? What happened to the HDV revolution?

 

If in fact this red thing is as good as people here say it will be, maybe I'll be tempted to use one for my feature? Then stick it on ebay real quick before its value drops like a stone.

 

Next feature....next HD camera, then onto ebay it goes.

 

Save money over renting.

 

R,

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I have been seeing a commercial shot on HDV recently at the cinema and I found it to look appaling. Not even close to HDCAM quality, and miles away from 35mm

 

I don't know when you're planing to shoot your feature, but this Red camera has merely been announced, it's not available yet.

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Along this same vein as a "cheap" alternative to film, has any one yet shot a feature on HDV and transfered it to 35mm? Have you seen it projected? Any thing out there that can be rented on DVD?

 

If not why not? What happened to the HDV revolution?

I've seen footage from a JVC HD100 projected on film. Honestly, it looks better than I expected, but I couldn't describe it as more than "ok." But then again, of the people shooting on HDV, how many actually have the budget to print to film? I don't expect that we'll be seeing much of it.

Edited by Scott Fritzshall
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Right now my plan is to stick to using my 35mm gear for the film.

 

But I was curious if there where any HDV to 35mm features out there.

 

Thanks

R,

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Well, the RED site's been updated -- $17,500. Quite a surprise. I assume that doesn't include the lens.

 

http://www.red.com/products/cameras/redone/index.html

 

Exactly it doesn't include any lens.

 

In my opinion, if the camera meets its specs, it might really cause some damage to other players like Sony and Panasonic. But for now, I'm just reading numbers and specs. The camera doesn't even exist.

 

Besides, I wonder if this company has enough resources to provide their customers with an efficient technical support.

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For the people wanting the headlines:

 

Here is the information summarized from this article:

http://www.studiodaily.com/main/searchlist/6388.html

 

Specs for the (currently vaporware*) RED Camera:

 

Designed and created by billionaire Jim Jannard of Oakley, Head of tech is form Mac Guy from AJA.

 

Super35mm CMOS sensor, Bayer patter, custom designed and built.

 

Resolutions 4k, 2045, 1080, 720

 

Frame Rates: 1 to 60 in all, 1 to 120 in 720

 

"Target" Date: "Meaningful Production Quantities" - begining of 2007

 

PRICE: $17,500 for camera alone including "S35mm Mysterium sensor, S35mm PL lens mount, LCD, HD-SDI output (4:2:2 capability), dual HD-SDI outputs (4:4:4: capability), battery and charger." - No storage, no lense.

 

Lens: PL Mount, they will offer their own Oakley 300mm f2.8 lens for $4,750

 

 

 

*vaporware meaning - it has not been produced yet, not that it will never be produced.

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That's what the article said.... curious if that's a zoom lense?

 

It's a fixed 300m lens. They are also listing a 17-100mm zoom lens on their website but the link is disabled.

 

By the way, I found some more information on this camera here:

 

http://www.hdforindies.com/

 

... 100 reservations placed already ... that's kind of surprising ... I guess ...

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Oh great! 300mm! Now that will be a real workhorse lens then...

 

Max, tone down the cynicism :) . Although, I think that a 50mm would be a good starting point. That focal lenght is the cheapest to produce and it is good to not aim too high in R & D. One problem with this camera. No optical viewfinder. The eng-like video-viewfinder hasn't really taken off with the Panavision XL cameras and it must be a nightmare to use it in hand held mode.

 

One thing I don't understand judging by the specs. The Red storage magazines have a maximun capacity of 160GB. Wouldn't that be a couple of minutes in 4k+? Kinda like shooting a feauture with short ends.

Edited by arnih
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Thanks for the link, I was reading some of James Cameron's address to NAB. Here's what he says at one point, and this is the very reason Hollywood box office numbers continue to falter:

 

"Falling box office and day & date release causes concern, how to get people back to theaters.

 

Can d-cinema provide the magic to do that? For me, yes. Digital is an enabling tech for 3D. Digital has a sound biz model for why it should be done. Those reasons are not why he's excited about it - for me, it's about 3D."

 

He's all about the gear and a new gimick for showing movies. The real focus should be first on the writing of movies, then people will come back in droves. He's basically saying we'll blow people away with more techno crap, so they'll shell out the money. It will work for a few movies then people will lose interest.

 

2D, 3D, 4D, 5D, won't mattter.

 

R,

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... 100 reservations placed already ... that's kind of surprising ... I guess ...

 

Well, camera number 89 is mine.

 

Yes, I put down a deposit on this camera, tried to do it first thing in the morning (wanted a low number), but I couldn't get through and didn't get the call back until the afternoon.

 

What on Earth am I thinking?

 

Well... if I don't like what I see down the line or the competition is better, it's fully refundable. If I do - I want one and I probably won't want to wait. That simple. My basic logic was... if it's too good to be true - so good that people don't believe it's possible it could be made. I'd probably want one.

 

 

Side note: apparently that 300mm is a fixed lense... Odd. But sounds like they will be making other lense options. There are also lots of PL mount lenses out there.

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