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Michael Collier

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He is making somewhat the same mistake Sony made with its introduction of HDCAM. Sony tried to force HDCAM on the cinema market with half truth, hype and slogans. Sony attempted to go around the appraisal of cinematographers by telling production companies and studios that HD was faster, cheaper, and required less lighting and less crew. There was also the rumor that production could pay crew video rate instead of paying the higher film crew rate for shooting with HD.

 

Your points are well taken, but isn't it possible that Jannard has LEARNED from Sony's mistakes with HDCAM?

 

It would seem he's been listening to somebody who shoots film for a living. He's pitching a full-size sensor, 4:4:4, true 1080p, 2K, 4K.

 

I don't see how anybody can say Jannard is making the "same" mistake Sony made. Whatever mistake he's making, it's his own, not somebody else's.

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The same thing was happening with Dalsa at the cinegear masterclass last year when it was taking it's turn after the 435, d-20 and genesis. They were hard selling everything. A VERY accomplished dp friend of mine was asking to see the image on the monitors that we had seen all the other cameras on. He likes to light to a perfect monitor when he shoots digital. He asked to view what was happening on the monitor, the dalsa rep told him that they hadn't brought the downconverter because, with the metadata world, you don't need one. My friend said that he liked to have a monitor. The rep kept saying, 'no, you don't need that. this way is better.' In the end, when we all watched the footage from the four cameras at Laser Pacific, Dalsa had rendered the footage at the wrong settings and it was unwatchable. Makes you think someone should have had a monitor...

 

It seems that the people with the least usable, unfinished cameras lay down the thickest BS. The Arri and Panavision reps were great. They were honest and realistic about the limitations of their product. They've been in the game long enough to understand that their product isn't perfect and that to lie to people is just going to hurt them once appraisals come out of the real product.

 

If Red works, then great, but I think that hardselling everything and not admitting to the possibility of anything being less than perfect is just a sign of insecurity and desperation to be loved. If you build it, they will come. But take your head out of your ass until you have something real to show.

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We have a difference of opinion on who makes the best CCD sensors in the world! :)

 

Nice specs. How about putting those damn things to use in a pro d-cinema camera that we can all start using?

 

Or are you just trying to tease me?

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Nice specs. How about putting those damn things to use in a pro d-cinema camera that we can all start using?

 

Or are you just trying to tease me?

 

All those Kodak sensors like the 39 megapixel sensor are commercially available. Getting all that image data off of them and storing it at 24fps is the challenge.

 

Kodak sensors are at the heart of the Spirit telecine, and many of the reconnaisance satellites in space. Kodak developed the first scanners for Lucasfilm.

 

Kodak has been very involved in this area for decades --- the Lunar Orbitor that first provided high definition photos of the moon's surface and digitally sent them back to earth in the mid-1960s used a Kodak imaging system and scanner.

B)

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Kodak has been very involved in this area for decades --- the Lunar Orbitor that first provided high definition photos of the moon's surface and digitally sent them back to earth in the mid-1960s used a Kodak imaging system and scanner.

B)

 

I have a book that describes that particular mission. The probe had an onboard Kodak darkroom that processed the B&W film onboard (no need to worry about oxidation IN SPACE, lucky devils :-) ), 70mm film and then used what was essentially a souped up analog "wire-photo" scanner to radio the pictures back to Earth. The pictures included in the book were amazingly detailed for scans made in such a fashion, save the slight scan lines. The most famous picture taken on that mission was actually a picture the NASA technicians did as a test shot. It's called, appropriately "Earthrise". Since NASA pictures are public domain, I'll see if I can "scan the scan" and put it up here :-) While NASA probes now use digital sensors for astro-pictures, the manned missions still shoot film almost exclusively. There's even been IMAX footage shot in space. I feel it's kinda sad that '60s film technology routinely outclasses a lot of the digital imaging done today. Even digital pictures or scans taken at high res are downgraded to 2K in theatres, and it's surprising how many people I here griping about having HUGE 60MB powerpoint presentations because of all the pictures in them. That's the size of ONE FRAME of scanned 35mm slide film!

 

Regards.

 

~Karl Borowski

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I should have been more specific. I meant motion CCD sensors. From the little I know about it, my gut keeps telling me that Sony is the company to trust in this field. We have 3 Sony DCR-VX2000 cameras that we use for our wedding video business. They are amazing in low light (not that we don't use on-camera lights). And they just seem to keep getting better. Here is an interesting comparison link that is slightly impertinent to this discussion but gives you an idea of what Sony accomplished with the VX-2000 in comparision to Canon with the GL-1:

 

http://www.bealecorner.com/trv900/lowlight3/index.html

 

Back on subject though, I realize that Panasonic has the HVX-200 now, but it seems to me that Sony has been on the ball with the prosumer market niche and the HDR-FX1 seems like the right evolutionary step toward HD progress. As an aside, I'm not sure how Oakley/RED can compete. It's like David going against Goliath. But, back to what we were discussing, if Kodak ever made a motion CCD censor and prosumer camcorder I'm sure we would all be delighted to consider.

 

As of right now I use my Eclair ACL Super-16 camera and Kodak Vision2 film--so Kodak still wins in the end. :)

 

Thanks,

Mike Welle

Charleston, SC

 

We have a difference of opinion on who makes the best CCD sensors in the world! :)

 

http://www.kodak.com/global/en/digital/ccd...amilyMain.jhtml

 

http://www.kodak.com/global/en/digital/ccd....4.8.4.17&lc=en

 

KAF-39000.jpg

Edited by Mike Welle
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But, back to what we were discussing, if Kodak ever made a motion CCD censor and prosumer camcorder I'm sure we would all be delighted to consider.

 

As of right now I use my Eclair ACL Super-16 camera and Kodak Vision2 film--so Kodak still wins in the end. :)

 

Thanks,

Mike Welle

Charleston, SC

 

Kodak Image Sensors are also used by other digital camera manufacturers in "high end" applications.

 

Kodak is in the unique position of being a leader in both film and digital imaging technology --- the best of both worlds. :)

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Reading other lists and what they say about RED.

 

Many people are saying it brings 4K to the low budget filmmaker. There is no thought in how you will store or edit those huge files.

 

Which is one of the problems with RED they hype the camera but give no info on how you will deal with the data afterward.

 

Forget 4K all of this excitement would sober if people took a realistic look at how much it costs to build a good 1080P editing system.

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The thing I'm most surprised people are not talkng about is the whole issue of expanded lattitude from greater bit depth.

 

That is the thing I want in on.

 

 

And... why isn't kodak making a camera? If they rule both the film and digital worlds, it seems it would make the most sense for them to hedge their position with the single best motion picture camera available.

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How much does it cost?

 

Depends on what you need to do.

 

I know someone who just upgraded their Power Mac G5 for HD. Here is what he got.

 

Blackmagic Decklink HD

PCIe Card $1000

 

Fibre Channel card $500

 

Sony 20" HD monitor $14,000

 

Sony HDCAM Deck $40,000

 

2 TeraByte RAID $7000

 

Dual Processor XServe $4000

 

 

He got an HDCAM deck

which is 1080 3:1:1

but if you want to work in

1080 4:4:4 you need this:

Sony HDCAM SR Deck $113,000

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there is no reason to have a deck if you have the Red camera or any camera of it's nature (SI, truecolorspace, kinetta) unless you have a specific output need, and then HDCAM would not be the way to go as it is heavily compressed.

 

You would not HAVE to have a monitor there either. You could to a color correction studio or rent one for when you are doing your color correction, otherwise, you're just editing and can do that on flat panels.

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The thing I'm most surprised people are not talkng about is the whole issue of expanded lattitude from greater bit depth.

 

Mark,

 

IMHO thats because many people are happy with existing Video equipment. They don't see the problem so they think its good enough.

 

If Red can deliver what they promise I will buy a camera!

 

Stephen

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And... why isn't kodak making a camera? If they rule both the film and digital worlds, it seems it would make the most sense for them to hedge their position with the single best motion picture camera available.

 

The "camera" is only a small part of any practical system or "workflow".

 

As far as Kodak's future plans to leverage its leading-edge technology, time will tell, I won't. ;)

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there is no reason to have a deck if you have the Red camera or any camera of it's nature

 

Depends on the needs of the workflow. Hard drives have advantages as well as disadvantages. They crash for one and its not easy to transport terabytes of RAID.

 

Tape is long running, compact, portable, stable, physical storage medium.

 

You would not HAVE to have a monitor there either. You could to a color correction studio or rent one for when you are doing your color correction, otherwise, you're just editing and can do that on flat panels.

 

Also depends on what you are doing.

 

The guy I talked about above his company does television promo spots. They create graphics and text. They also often do effects and minor color grading to the video in Apple Motion, After Effects, and Photoshop. So they need a monitor no matter what camera the video was shot on.

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there is no reason to have a deck if you have the Red camera or any camera of it's nature (SI, truecolorspace, kinetta) unless you have a specific output need, and then HDCAM would not be the way to go as it is heavily compressed.
Well said.

 

You would not HAVE to have a monitor there either. You could to a color correction studio or rent one for when you are doing your color correction, otherwise, you're just editing and can do that on flat panels.
Well said - part II...

 

Most directors I know want to have a monitor, even for the most basic stuff.
What I can read from the Mark's words it is related to CC post work and not simple shot monitoring under of the directing POV interest (that is, directly related to). Edited by Emanuel
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Guest Kai.w
The guy I talked about above his company does television promo spots. They create graphics and text. They also often do effects and minor color grading to the video in Apple Motion, After Effects, and Photoshop. So they need a monitor no matter what camera the video was shot on.

You don't always need an HD Monitor to check colors. The decklink offers realtime SD preview on a broadcast monitor. In many cases thats enough. Would save you quite some money.

But still it is expensive. But so would be a digital film post route. You can still edit "offline" and give it to some post house to do you're 4k online work.

 

-k

Edited by Kai.w
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You don't always need an HD Monitor to check colors. The decklink offers realtime SD preview on a broadcast monitor. In many cases thats enough. Would save you quite some money.

But still it is expensive. But so would be a digital film post route. You can still edit "offline" and give it to some post house to do you're 4k online work.

 

-k

 

Hi,

 

You need a large HD monitor to check focus! Otherwise you can't tell if the take is sharp.

 

Stephen

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Guest Jim Murdoch
I hear the "Murdoch VW8000 Digital Cinematography Camera" got the second place award! :)

 

Just joking ...

Yeah, but that was before we had the website up and running. You wait; next year our proposed specifications will be twice as good as their proposed specifications, our engineers are working on them right now! And the clay of our model has almost dried! :rolleyes:

Edited by Jim Murdoch
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there is no reason to have a deck if you have the Red camera or any camera of it's nature (SI, truecolorspace, kinetta)

 

I can't help but notice that none of the cameras you just mentioned actually exist as a product you can purchase, rent, or use. So for the foreseeable future, the point it completely moot.

 

 

You can still edit "offline" and give it to some post house to do you're 4k online work.

 

"4K Online???????" What year do you think this is?

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Depends on what you need to do.

 

I know someone who just upgraded their Power Mac G5 for HD. Here is what he got.

 

Blackmagic Decklink HD

PCIe Card $1000

 

Fibre Channel card $500

 

Sony 20" HD monitor $14,000

 

Sony HDCAM Deck $40,000

 

2 TeraByte RAID $7000

 

Dual Processor XServe $4000

He got an HDCAM deck

which is 1080 3:1:1

but if you want to work in

1080 4:4:4 you need this:

Sony HDCAM SR Deck $113,000

 

just out of interest does this mean when you shoot on film you buy all your own equipment? The reason I ask is because once we remove the non- rental items- the deck and the $14,000 monitor we now have a figure of $8500 (using your figures) add another $4000 for a g5, HDLink and 23" apple display (for HD monitoring- not colour correction) and you have a grand total of $12500. This figure could be reduced further with deals. Your post is really quite daft and is completely misleading.

 

Keith

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Your post is really quite daft and is completely misleading.

 

Keith

 

Jesus H., Keith.

 

For the record, I was the one who asked the question and I appreciated the answer.

 

Between cranks like you and Jim Murdoch, I'm amazed anybody bothers to post on this site at all. The genuine information you add to the discussion is completely wiped out by your jerkwater attitude.

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Between cranks like you and Jim Murdoch, I'm amazed anybody bothers to post on this site at all. The genuine information you add to the discussion is completely wiped out by your jerkwater attitude.

 

Kim,

 

I agree. I'm particularly tired of one little mouse behind his big keyboard. I came here to ask for ideas, not idiotic banter. If any of you have suggestions you would like us to consider, please email us at 4k@red.com. Or visit some of the other forums where this stuff isn't tolerated.

 

Signing out.

 

Jim Jannard

RED

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Hi,

 

All I'd say is try and be standardised.

 

If there's a standard way of doing something (SMPTE audio-modulated timecode on BNCs, 3/8" Whitworth threads on tripod mounts, 4-pin XLR power connectors are trivial examples) please do it that way; don't cook up some odd way of doing it yourselves to save $5. What I'm trying to avoid by this request is the situation you get with small handycams covered from top to bottom in adapters and cables trying to turn it into a real camera.

 

And sturdy connectors, please. I appreciate this is difficult with standards like USB and firewire (when is someone going to define a standard for doing those on more robust connectors?) but audio comes on XLRs not RCAs and other things come on Lemos not DINs.

 

Probably all the previous goes without saying, but it's worth repeating.

 

Also, straightforward control interfaces for straightforward items. Close to activate contacts for start and stop and single-frame shooting on a readily available connector. Not XYZ complicated data bus. And, if like many cameras you're going to run a software operating system on the thing, at least provide an API for common functions - this will allow the opensource community to script applications for it to allow amusing things like wifi links to the script supervisor's laptop, and intelligent metadata processing. I'm not saying do it, I'm saying make it possible to do.

 

Phil

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