Red

[Guest Jim Murdoch]

A lot, actually. I can't think of any 35mm DOF camera (with full frame sensor) that shoots 4k at 60fps (other than film cameras). ....

Jim

What he's saying is: "How exactly is having access to a camera like that going to magically parachute you through the supposed 'celluloid ceiling' into fame, fortune and personal satisfaction in the film industry?".

 

With your money, I'm sure you could rent the biggest and fanciest camera and lighting package that Panavision could supply, but that's not going to turn you into Steven Spielberg, is it? There are far too many people here who seem firmly convinced that the only thing stopping them from becoming the next Tarantino or Coppola is that they don't have access to a camera.

[Stephen Williams]

there are no other full frame 35mm sensor cameras that are for sale on the market.

 

Jim

 

You might be surprised at the names of some DP's that have placed reservations.

 

Jim

 

Jim,

 

There are NO full frame 35mm sensor cameras for sale now. There are however working full frame 35mm frame sensor cameras that you can rent and test.

 

Today you can't buy, rent or test a Red camera. I am looking forward to meeting you and seeing the 4K output at IBC in September.

 

Stephen

[Emanuel A Guedes]

Jim Murdoch, we already know that you are a guy with a lot of humor. Really, I've been laughing with some of your gags for some time. But why you insist to be offensive with assumptions that you can't control? Because you are a human being (please don't ask me if I'm sure of that evidence or something like that...) - right?

 

To speak about money (again and again), work, projects, dreams... -- whatever!...that are involving others (and you are speaking like a superior knowledge :lol: :( of each one of us), it's not nice but just rude.

 

Last night, your recent achievement it was a closed thread...

 

(at least, I ask) what's your plans some hours later? To close another one? If your idea it is to try to end with all of the RED sub-forum, please, why not other method? Even faster? Or then, maybe another hobby?

Edited May 11, 2006 by Emanuel

[Guest Jim Murdoch]

What have you been smoking Dude?

What closed threads?

Edited May 11, 2006 by Jim Murdoch

[Stephen Williams]

Emanuel,

 

How much do you estimate your Red camera system will cost? Camera, Lens, recording, matt box, tripod, lights etc.

 

Stephen

[Emanuel A Guedes]

Emanuel,

 

How much do you estimate your Red camera system will cost? Camera, Lens, recording, matt box, tripod, lights etc.

 

Stephen

There are a lot of numbers around the forums (Jim J. said someting about $1,000 to the recorder) but my major concern are the 35mm PL mount lens! I'd like to use the Nikon F mount as it's possible to handle with the Silicon Imaging cam.

 

I read from you that you prefer 35mm used lenses than new Super 16 ones. Have you any suggestion where I can buy affordable? BTW, any adaptor to the use of SLR Nikkor lenses@PL mount cameras (in this case, the RED ONE) ?

 

Thanks in advance!

[Max Jacoby]

How much do you estimate your Red camera system will cost? Camera, Lens, recording, matt box, tripod, lights etc.

That's a question I've been asking myself as well. Although the price of the camera may seem low, it is just that, a camera body. Once you add all the necessary accesories, especially recorder, etc... the cost multiplies.

 

As far as lenses go, to be honest if you are shooting 4K you better use dedicated PL mount lenses, not some stills lenses that are not designed for motion picture use. As I've said before there are PL mount prime lenses that cost more than the camera itself...

 

 

You might be surprised at the names of some DP's that have placed reservations.

I am not surprised by that at all, since $1000 is nothing to a succesful DOP, so he can afford to take the risk. The same goes for rental companies, where in fact I'd be surprised if they did NOT make a reservation in order to get their place in the queue. It's just sound business practice.

[Emanuel A Guedes]

That's a question I've been asking myself as well. Although the price of the camera may seem low, it is just that, a camera body. Once you add all the necessary accesories, especially recorder, etc... the cost multiplies.

It's true! However if you will go to the RED codec (he's Nattress the man behind that and I have confidence in his skills as far as I know his high knowledge about the subject -- he promises a 10-bit codec similar to the David Newman's Cineform that it is very good even to theatrical release after blown-up), the SATA drive it will be enough, specially...

As far as lenses go, to be honest if you are shooting 4K you better use dedicated PL mount lenses, not some stills lenses that are not designed for motion picture use. As I've said before there are PL mount prime lenses that cost more than the camera itself...

...if you are going to the scaled 2k workflow (Stuart English made an interesting explaination following a thread that I opened there) I'm thinking that maybe, by now, still lenses though they will do their job -- or am I wrong? Edited May 11, 2006 by Emanuel

[Stephen Williams]

I read from you that you prefer 35mm used lenses than new Super 16 ones. Have you any suggestion where I can buy affordable? BTW, any adaptor to the use of SLR Nikkor lenses@PL mount cameras (in this case, the RED ONE) ?

 

Thanks in advance!

 

Hi,

 

Nikon to PL adapter will never work except for Macro. The Red camera would have to have a Nikon mount fitted if Jim is listening then that sounds like an option required.

 

Lenses are always an expensive issue. I was hoping to use my Cooke 20-60 if I get a RED camera as my standard (low cost) lens. PL 35mm primes sell from about $2500 per lens, New PL prime lenses cost $5000-15,000 each!

 

Good BNCR mounted lenses often sell from $1000, IMHO that might be a better bet than Nikon, but Red would need to make a mount option as after market modification cost far more.

 

Stephen

[Max Jacoby]

I'm thinking that maybe, by now, still lenses though they will do their job -- or am I wrong?

The problem with still lenses is that they are not designed for motion picture use. That means that the focus scale is too small for accurate focus pulling, they breathe and they are not very rugged.

 

The only Nikon still lens I've ever come accross is the 300mm T2 (with a PL mount). Focus-pulling was very hard, because the scale was so small and not very visible. If've never even heard of any life-action film shooting on Nikon still lenses.

 

2K needs all the resolving power of a lens that you can get, because hoenstly, it is not quite enough for the big screen.

[Emanuel A Guedes]

The problem with still lenses is that they are not designed for motion picture use. That means that the focus scale is too small for accurate focus pulling, they breathe and they are not very rugged.

 

The only Nikon still lens I've ever come accross is the 300mm T2 (with a PL mount). Focus-pulling was very hard, because the scale was so small and not very visible. If've never even heard of any life-action film shooting on Nikon still lenses.

 

2K needs all the resolving power of a lens that you can get, because hoenstly, it is not quite enough for the big screen.

Thank you for the answer...however, I'm thinking that 2k will be a nice format like 1080p is and there are several examples even at 2.35:1 for to prove it.

 

EDIT -- Of course, it depends of the project but if even George Lucas is there... - don't you think?

Edited May 11, 2006 by Emanuel

[Guest Jim Murdoch]

2K needs all the resolving power of a lens that you can get, because hoenstly, it is not quite enough for the big screen.

Actually, that wouldn't be such an issue with a 35mm-sized sensor, since the lens only needs to focus as well as the optical low-pass filter will allow.

 

It's much more critical with 2/3" sensors or 16mm film.

 

Actually, a worthwhile option would be some sort of micro-actuated auto-focus. Not the sort of full auto-focus you get with a Handycam, but just something that can automatically "trim" the focus by a couple of percent for maximum sharpness. That would go a long way toward eliminating the perennial problems of trying to focus on an electronic viewfinder.

[Jim Jannard]

Actually, that wouldn't be such an issue with a 35mm-sized sensor, since the lens only needs to focus as well as the optical low-pass filter will allow.

 

It's much more critical with 2/3" sensors or 16mm film.

 

Actually, a worthwhile option would be some sort of micro-actuated auto-focus. Not the sort of full auto-focus you get with a Handycam, but just something that can automatically "trim" the focus by a couple of percent for maximum sharpness. That would go a long way toward eliminating the perennial problems of trying to focus on an electronic viewfinder.

 

Oh, my! Productive, accurate and informative. Not a hint of disrespect. I love this post. Now I am all ears.

 

Jim

[John Pytlak RIP]

Consumer digital cameras (including many of the Kodak ones) use some very good (and patented) technology for autofocus:

 

http://www.kodak.com/eknec/PageQuerier.jht...pq-locale=en_US

 

Lots of high-end cameras and devices (e.g., scanners) are using Kodak image sensors:

 

http://www.kodak.com/global/en/digital/ccd...o&idhbx=imagers

[Chris Fernando]

How much do you estimate your Red camera system will cost? Camera, Lens, recording, matt box, tripod, lights etc.

 

Stephen

 

Instead of all the speculation why not ask Jim (Jannard, that is) since he's here. Of course sticks and lights are "extras". If Jim Jannard were going to take this thing out on a show what does he figure it would cost him. I'm thinking this probably includes a full set of decent primes (PL mount?) and a nice zoom (?).

 

In all the posts on all these forums, all I'm reading is hyperbole, market speak and what is becoming diatribe with no solid concrete numbers. Just asking here.

Edited May 11, 2006 by CMPhern

[Jim Jannard]

In all the posts on all these forums, all I'm reading is hyperbole, market speak and what is becoming diatribe with no solid concrete numbers. Just asking here.

 

The RED ONE camera body will be $17,500, including LCD (with a new focus assist system), and battery. There will be a 2.5" SATA slot that has several recording options. Cheapest will be a RED-Drive solution for under $1000. PL mount lenses can be found anywhere between $1000 and $300k for a complete Cooke set with a RED 300mm. You choose what you can afford. Our system will be "matt box and rods ready". We will not offer these as there are many companies in the industry to offer them. We have spoken with and will support a company that makes underwater housings. Our cages systems will not be expensive and will provide many shooting alternatives, from Steadicam to ENG style, to studio work. Add mics, monitors and other recording options as you wish. We will offer interchgangeable lens mounts if you wish to shoot something other than PL Mount and use lenses you already own.

 

Short answer, for just over $20K you can shoot and record 2k. Or you can build any kind of system you want... just like with every other camera, as your budget dictates.

 

Jim

[Chad Stockfleth]

I hope everyone has gotten the jokes and sly remarks out of their system. I am excited about the RED camera as well, but it has DOMINATED topic since I've joined. Has this always been such a turbulent forum?

[Chris Fernando]

The RED ONE camera body will be $17,500, including LCD (with a new focus assist system), and battery. There will be a 2.5" SATA slot that has several recording options. Cheapest will be a RED-Drive solution for under $1000. PL mount lenses can be found anywhere between $1000 and $300k for a complete Cooke set with a RED 300mm. You choose what you can afford. Our system will be "matt box and rods ready". We will not offer these as there are many companies in the industry to offer them. We have spoken with and will support a company that makes underwater housings. Our cages systems will not be expensive and will provide many shooting alternatives, from Steadicam to ENG style, to studio work. Add mics, monitors and other recording options as you wish. We will offer interchgangeable lens mounts if you wish to shoot something other than PL Mount and use lenses you already own.

 

Short answer, for just over $20K you can shoot and record 2k. Or you can build any kind of system you want... just like with every other camera, as your budget dictates.

 

Jim

 

Jim,

Excuse my uninformed nature, but what are the specs on the RED-Drive? I assume you didn't mention 4k under 20k due to storage issues, again maybe I'm missing something here.

 

What type of accesories will it support; I'm assuming the standard Arri products/specs? Any other manufacturers as far as MB's go, or will one have to shell out another 4k for a matte box?

 

Perhaps there's a FAQ link to all this somewhere. Thanks.

[Dan Goulder]

I hope everyone has gotten the jokes and sly remarks out of their system. I am excited about the RED camera as well, but it has DOMINATED topic since I've joined. Has this always been such a turbulent forum?

No...until the Church of Scientology ordered the first 5 production models of the RED camera.

[Stephen Williams]

Instead of all the speculation why not ask Jim (Jannard, that is) since he's here. Of course sticks and lights are "extras".

 

Hi,

 

I thought it more interesting to ask somebody who had ordered the camera what he was expecting to spend! In my experience the extras usually cost more than the camera body.

 

Stephen

[Chris Fernando]

Hi,

 

I thought it more interesting to ask somebody who had ordered the camera what he was expecting to spend! In my experience the extras usually cost more than the camera body.

 

Stephen

 

Stephen,

My aplogies if I came across as singling you and your post out. That was not my intention. I was only using it to get to the "horse's mouth".

[Tim Terner]

I hope everyone has gotten the jokes and sly remarks out of their system. I am excited about the RED camera as well, but it has DOMINATED topic since I've joined. Has this always been such a turbulent forum?

 

I totally agree with you Chad !!!

 

Best of luck Jim with the whole project. I for one will be one of 100's in the queue for it as soon as it's available

Edited May 11, 2006 by shiner

[Dan Goulder]

There's an expression in the electronics and technology field known as "vaporware". This term is used to refer to gear that is already being advertised, and thus implied to be already in existence, when in fact it really only exists as either a concept, or something still 'in development'. It can refer to things that are sometimes months, or even years away from actual release to the marketplace.

 

Some less-than-scrupulous marketers have advertised the impending release of "vaporware" as a means of getting the consumer to forestall any investment in a competing product. They whip up excitement for a product that doesn't even exist, at least not in the sense that one can see, touch, or actually use said item. They may even show pictures of non-functional mockups.

 

This is not meant to imply that the product referred to in this thread doesn't necessarily exist. This is merely a reality check for people that get all excited about specs and prices and things that only currently exist in the form of "projections".

[Guest rndfilms]

This is pretty close to what I was alluding to in re: "paint it with a UV laser"......and could be accomplished a number of ways (cf. John Pytlak's links to consumer autofocus). I can see many professional applications for autofocus, if properly implemented; I know this will probably irk you operators, but sports, news, fast live action, stunts &c. With a high resolution system (ultrasonic? UV laser? maybe triangulation via multiple emitters?), you could keep small fast moving objects (UFOs? my son? same thing) in focus with small DOF. I'd use that.

 

 

 

 

 

Actually, that wouldn't be such an issue with a 35mm-sized sensor, since the lens only needs to focus as well as the optical low-pass filter will allow.

 

It's much more critical with 2/3" sensors or 16mm film.

 

Actually, a worthwhile option would be some sort of micro-actuated auto-focus. Not the sort of full auto-focus you get with a Handycam, but just something that can automatically "trim" the focus by a couple of percent for maximum sharpness. That would go a long way toward eliminating the perennial problems of trying to focus on an electronic viewfinder.

[Emanuel A Guedes]

Oh, my!

Actually, that wouldn't be such an issue with a 35mm-sized sensor, since the lens only needs to focus as well as the optical low-pass filter will allow.

 

It's much more critical with 2/3" sensors or 16mm film.

 

Actually, a worthwhile option would be some sort of micro-actuated auto-focus. Not the sort of full auto-focus you get with a Handycam, but just something that can automatically "trim" the focus by a couple of percent for maximum sharpness. That would go a long way toward eliminating the perennial problems of trying to focus on an electronic viewfinder.

Productive, accurate and informative. Not a hint of disrespect. I love this post. Now I am all ears.

 

Jim

Peace for once! When I read...same feeling... Also because you, Jim J., deserve it. All of your posts are as accurate as possible to a high techie developer. And now you too Jim M. as poster here.

 

Will it be any auto-focus system? Or this possibility?

 

The RED ONE camera body will be $17,500, including LCD (with a new focus assist system), and battery. There will be a 2.5" SATA slot that has several recording options. Cheapest will be a RED-Drive solution for under $1000. PL mount lenses can be found anywhere between $1000 and $300k for a complete Cooke set with a RED 300mm. You choose what you can afford. Our system will be "matt box and rods ready". We will not offer these as there are many companies in the industry to offer them. We have spoken with and will support a company that makes underwater housings. Our cages systems will not be expensive and will provide many shooting alternatives, from Steadicam to ENG style, to studio work. Add mics, monitors and other recording options as you wish. We will offer interchgangeable lens mounts if you wish to shoot something other than PL Mount and use lenses you already own.

 

Short answer, for just over $20K you can shoot and record 2k. Or you can build any kind of system you want... just like with every other camera, as your budget dictates.

 

Jim

Your speech rocks. In this case, I'd like to know if there will be a SLR option for still lenses.

 

Nikon F mount for the use of Nikkor lenses?

 

Canon also?

 

And a c-mount option for this sort of lenses?

 

As you have a large colection of photography lenses, maybe you can follow my interest. BTW, any problem with the use of these kind of lenses with 2k? Or even with 4k to the 35mm even if from the photography field?

 

Thanks in advance!

Edited May 11, 2006 by Emanuel