IBC footage...

[Mike Brennan]

Yes and a lot more to come from Sony, JVC, & Panasonic, when they rip off Jim's idea and come out with their own 4K camera at half the cost of Jim's.

 

A rip off is a copy of someone elses idea. If you think other manufacturers will rip off the 4k technology you are mistaken as they already have their own.

 

Hard to figure who had the first concept for a digital storage movie camera, NAC have been doing interesting stuff with digital high speed cameras for a while and now have a 4k camera, Sony started their digital line with a stills camera, the Mavica digital still camera way back in 1981.

 

 

Do you mean that Oakley may be first to market a 4k digital camera and others will rip off the market?

 

But Olympus already have a 4k camera, with seperate recorder, using pixel offset, its available for rent in Japan since Janurary.

http://www.olympus.co.jp/en/crdc/hfds/service/?ote=1

 

In respect to your comment about manufacturers in the future releasing a product that is "half the cost" of the RED (as though it is a bad thing) isnt this is what RED is hoping to do to HDCAM?

 

 

 

 

Mike Brennan

[Guest]

Richard, I re-read my post (after reading yours) and can see that it might be taken differently than I meant. What I meant was why post in the HD Only section of this board, not this site in general. I was genuinely curious. As to why I am posting on the HD Only section of Cinematography.com... it seemed better than posting on the 35mm section. :-)

 

I mean no disrespect. If it sounds like it, I apologize.

 

My best,

 

Jim

 

Do billionaires need to apologize to any one :D

 

As to why I would read the info you have posted and respond, you are making a product that it seems some believe will replace film on a certain level, so I'm one of the many film shooters chiming in on the film side. Having said that, so far Kodak and Fuji have only given me maybe 1000 ft of free film, so they have not done me any huge favours.

 

But like I said before, I hope your camera does very well, and knocks a few more people out of the film market.

 

Since I'm saying nice things about your camera now, can I have a ride on one of your private planes?

 

I feel kind of justified in asking because as a Canadian tax payer I subsidized the construction of your Bombardier planes. It's a Quebec company that only succeeds because of the billions it gets from the Canadian tax payer. :D

 

 

Thanks

R,

[Mike Brennan]

In those scenarios, film is a much more stable, safe, and PROVEN method of long-term storage. Don't ask me, just talk to archivists, the members of AMIA.

 

If one doesnt have the cash or the will to keep something in the archive it will be lost regardless of the format.

Digital means multiple copies which in my view increases the chances of a copy surviving.

Last month in London a hugh fire in a so called secure archive wharehouse completely destroyed building and contents.

 

FIlm has been around a long time, yet a parlimentry report in 2003 in the UK critisised the BFI for failing to store the countries national film heritage properly and that it was degrading at an alarming rate, even the saftey stock.

On the other hand on August 7th apparently all/some of the master tapes of rough cuts to 4 parts of the 13 part BBC drama Robin Hood were stolen in Budapest.

Apparently no copies had been made, or if they had they too were stolen.

What is easy to store is also easy to steal. Production company Tiger Aspect is offering US$60k reward, newspaper reports state that the theives want $1.5 million ransom.

 

 

Summary of the parlimentry repert below.

 

 

Publishing a report about access to historic film, a UK Parliamentary committee says the stewardship of the nation's film heritage by the British Film Institute's National Film and Television Archive has led to "an unacceptable state of affairs."

 

"The Public Accounts Committee comments: "Film in the Archive is decomposing, particularly nitrate film kept by the BFI in old vaults. Film duplicated onto safety stock for safekeeping is now proving more unstable than the original nitrate film. And large quantities of film in the archive which have not been examined and catalogued are not yet accessible to the public, suggesting that the BFI has been unable to keep up with the volume of work." Committee Chairman MP Edward Leigh said the BFI "does not know how much of the safety film might be decomposing or (is) at risk of deterioration".

 

He called on the UK Film Council, which controls BFI funding, to take "a much tighter grip" over the monies it provides, which amounted to £14.5m ($21m) during the 2001/2 financial year, to ensure that the film in its custody "does not rot away."

 

The committee recommends: "To ensure that the nation's film heritage is managed effectively, a fundamental review of the BFI will need to determine clear objectives and priorities for the Archive which are capable of being realised within the resources that are likely to be available."

 

 

 

Dated Dec 7th 2003

 

 

Mike Brennan

[Brian Drysdale]

I believe Robin Hood is being shot on film, so the neg will be in the labs. I expect they're trying to avoid the costs of a new TK and matching everything up to their old EDL.

[Mark Bonnington]

Yes and a lot more to come from Sony, JVC, & Panasonic, when they rip off Jim's idea and come out with their own 4K camera at half the cost of Jim's.

 

Don't know about everyone else, but I'd still buy the RED at twice the cost of the Asian companies. I've grown weary of the Asian Oligopoly overcharging people... and it pisses me off to see them turn a profit while intentionally holding back technological progress. And if RED ever falls out of the market, the oligopoly would go right back to their old, over-priced practices.

[Keith Walters]

We had a 4k screening at one of the major studios on Friday. I asked the question, "if film is a 10 in resolution, color and soul, what is this footage?". The answer was "9.985". I guess we still have some work to do. But not too bad for 8 months and our 1st footage. The studio is pretty well known and just aired a "super" movie shot digital.

With the greatest respect Jim, I didn't think THOSE pictures were all that "Super" and I'm certainly not the only one. (I'm not saying they were TERRIBLE, but I would have expected more form a project with a budget that size.)

However if you could get pictures of that quality from something that costs under US$20K, well that would be an entirely different story, and I don't think too many people would disagree with that.

Can we ask what sort of images you shot for your recent 4K screening, and how they were stored?

And why can't you show us a picture of your breadboard? Most people know what a prototype looks like, nobody is going to laugh at you.

[Emanuel A Guedes]

Do billionaires need to apologize to any one :D

 

As to why I would read the info you have posted and respond, you are making a product that it seems some believe will replace film on a certain level, so I'm one of the many film shooters chiming in on the film side. Having said that, so far Kodak and Fuji have only given me maybe 1000 ft of free film, so they have not done me any huge favours.

 

But like I said before, I hope your camera does very well, and knocks a few more people out of the film market.

 

Since I'm saying nice things about your camera now, can I have a ride on one of your private planes?

 

I feel kind of justified in asking because as a Canadian tax payer I subsidized the construction of your Bombardier planes. It's a Quebec company that only succeeds because of the billions it gets from the Canadian tax payer. :D

Thanks

R,

Judging a man for the size of his success isn't accurate not even fair. Just rude.

 

EDIT -- Specially, following his previous humble input(s). Sad.

Edited September 2, 2006 by Emanuel

[Michael Most]

Don't know about everyone else, but I'd still buy the RED at twice the cost of the Asian companies. I've grown weary of the Asian Oligopoly overcharging people... and it pisses me off to see them turn a profit while intentionally holding back technological progress. And if RED ever falls out of the market, the oligopoly would go right back to their old, over-priced practices.

 

I don't know if you have any knowledge of the inner workings of camera manufacturers, but my guess is you don't. Overcharging?? Compared to what?? Do you have any idea whatsoever of their costs in terms of R&D, manufacturing, advertising, and support for these products? Or do you have any idea of the actual numbers of sales of the high end products? No, I didn't think you did. Nor are you noticing that these same greedy, wealthy, non-American criminals are also selling HD capable cameras to you and anyone else for $3000.00!!! If that's "greedy" and "overpriced," then the only thing that wouldn't be would be to give them away for free.

 

And while we're at it, let's lose the racist overtones, please. It's a big world out there.

[Emanuel A Guedes]

Emanuel,

 

I stand corrected!

 

Stephen

Stephen,

 

OK, let's forget it! Anyway, I appreciate your new words. As well, all the good will wherever there is. That's why I am where I am. And I believe in any Jim Jannard's project he may give us.

 

Is it possible to get an idea from the others' input? I believe so. Especially after 8 months of coherence in all of his posts. Besides 100% accurate. Besides his career as photographer/shooter, collector and, last but not least, as entrepreneur since 30 years ago.

 

BTW today, Jim updated his RED delivery info here:

http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?p=672418#post672418

 

Emanuel

 

<PS> I was in your website where I could see your samples. I must do as the japanese (as Paulo Rocha -- portuguese filmmaker LINK once taught me @Lisbon Film School) and to be grateful for what each other can give to the world. And we must grateful for your work as DoP artist.

[Guest Kai.w]

Seen the footage today at IBC. Apparently projected with the new sony 4k projector. Hmmm what to say.

Most of it was faces in front of dark backgrounds plus some close shots of sunglasses and a watch ;-)

I can't say that it looked much sharper/detailed than highend HD cameras but I felt it hard to judge with this sort of footage. I felt like skintones were a bit too red (similar to David Mullens HDCAM grabs he posted recently) but with better graduation. An interesting shot was that of a studio setup of a porsche. I think that the dynamic range looked good especially in this shot but it was all so short...

I can't say that I was overly impressed but thats more with the footage and I'm not an expert on this.

I guess the good news is that apparently it is working and for first footage there was nothing really wrong at least to my unexperienced eye.

Somebody said the footage will be put up on the webpage so one can examine it more closely and with time.

 

 

-k

 

I guess this will be my last post here due to that naming business. Have fun and thanks for all the info I got here.

Edited September 9, 2006 by Kai.w

[Mike Brennan]

Saw the footage, twice!

 

 

It was expalined it was a simple initial test of the sensor at the factory.

 

 

On the face of it, I thought that the detail/resolution was better than 2/3 inch ccd cameras.

Not sure about dynamic range although most would say it is better than ccd I'll reserve judgement.

Exposure/projection created a low key look which suited the subjects.

 

In respect to combination of lens imager recorder and 4k projection, the more relevant test is a big wide shot with lots of detail, like the stem footage and where 2/3 inch cameras look softer than film.

 

 

Red test subject were not the best hoice to display resolution characteristics;

Faces, male female, Asian Caucasion, chewing gum and blowing bubbles and smoking a cigar!

closeup watch

closeup sunglasses

Track along silver porsche, shooting off set to show lights and flags.

 

No sign of fixed pattern noise, blacks were very clean.

Yes it had 35mm depth of field (half the subject was out of focus, noticable on 4k projector!)

A good advert for 2/3 inch depth of field and 4k resolution..only half kidding folks:0

 

 

Promise of a $10k short zoom.

Price point is what will drive this camera rahter than the finer points of noise and dynamic range.

 

Those that buy Red will not be dissapointed if recorder and camera reliability are within tolerance of their particualr segment of the industry.

 

 

Also saw the Infinity production model, which is a no brainer for mid res HD projects, pity it isnt 1920x1080 sensor, but this will come in the future.

 

Given the delivery time frame it is clear that some reliablity proving will be done in the hands of customers once they have purcheased.

With this in mind the biggest risk Red run is promising but not delivering industry standard reliability to a group of custmers who will be using the camera for self funded/private/speculative projects with narrow margins.

This segment of the market can live with lower quality but gets hit hard if the camera breaks down or there is a recording problem that costs more to fix in post than the purchase price of the camera.

 

 

But in summing up, so far so good!

 

 

Mike Brennan

[JA Tadena]

Doesnt it look like it was shot from a video camera and uploaded in "you tube" ? I guess its hard to tell how the original images looked like especially with You Tube. I hope they have a downloadable link of their samples.

[Guest Kai.w]

Doesnt it look like it was shot from a video camera and uploaded in "you tube" ? I guess its hard to tell how the original images looked like especially with You Tube. I hope they have a downloadable link of their samples.

 

 

http://red.com/images/gallery/still-downsize-for-web.jpg

 

that's at least one higher res still from the footage.

 

 

-k

[Phil Rhodes]

Hi,

 

It's very lovely but I notice two red flags, no pun intended.

 

- They're not releasing any raw images.

 

- They're claiming a lot of things they can't possibly have done, like go from not even a test slice to a working sensor since NAB. Sorry, people, not possible.

 

Either they're not telling us the truth regarding their schedule. They had at least a test slice by NAB and have worked like demons since, or they're actually using a preexisting sensor (which would be entirely doable.).

 

I'm sorry, every time I read anything about this project I just smell more and more... well, you know.

 

I want to see a picture of the device that shot those images.

 

Phil

[Graeme Nattress]

Development started 8 months ago. At NAB we'd just got test slices of the sensor. A short while ago we got full working sensors back from fab. I don't know how you can claim that something is "impossible".

 

We are most certainly not using a pre-exisitng sensor. And anyway, no pre-existing sensor does 4900x2580 @ 60fps with > 66db snr.

 

You don't want to see the camera that took the images. It was a quickly assembled frankenstein machine, with a large refrigerator sized drive array to record the uncompressed nearly 5k images.

[Phil Rhodes]

Hi,

 

> You don't want to see the camera that took the images.

 

Yes, actually, I do. I want to make sure it doesn't say "Thompson LDK-7500" on it anywhere (although I say this without having seen the pics).

 

>I don't know how you can claim that something is "impossible".

 

Because I know how long it takes to design and fabricate advanced semiconductors. For crying out loud, this is not Oakley, we are not fashion followers, you are talking to an informed audience here.

 

You really need to stop your trade show floor people from talking about holding detail in 15-over highlights. It would avoid all this derision and unpleasantness.

 

Phil

[Matt Workman]

http://red.com/images/gallery/still-downsize-for-web.jpg

 

that's at least one higher res still from the footage.

-k

 

This looks computer generated, IMO. I'm I alone?

[Rod Otaviano]

This looks computer generated, IMO. I'm I alone?

 

I had the same impression ... It looked like it was made with Maya or some other 3D modeling app.

[Mr. Shannon W. Rawls]

Because I know how long it takes to design and fabricate advanced semiconductors.

Really? How long?

[Graeme Nattress]

Hi,

 

> You don't want to see the camera that took the images.

 

Yes, actually, I do. I want to make sure it doesn't say "Thompson LDK-7500" on it anywhere (although I say this without having seen the pics).

 

>I don't know how you can claim that something is "impossible".

 

Because I know how long it takes to design and fabricate advanced semiconductors. For crying out loud, this is not Oakley, we are not fashion followers, you are talking to an informed audience here.

 

You really need to stop your trade show floor people from talking about holding detail in 15-over highlights. It would avoid all this derision and unpleasantness.

 

Phil

 

Come on! It's quite pointless really because no matter what we say or do, you're going to say it was faked.

 

Red does not claim any particular dynamic range in stops. Some viewers of the footage have claimed some rather extra-ordinary figures of how it looked, but all we have said is > 66 db snr.

 

And for those of you think it was 3d generated - why would we put in dead pixels and a couple of small pieces of dirt on the image if that was the case? Looks to me that it's utterly pointless to post here if that's what is going to be suggested. Quite frankly, that the footage looks so good that Rodrigo thinks it was done in Maya is incredibly flattering, but really, it's beyond belief.

[Matthew W. Phillips]

I don't think it is so much that it looks cgi that makes people suspicious as the fact that the whole RED operation has sounded fishy. No prototype but yet this "brilliant" footage. How am I to be convinced that this mystery unbuilt camera produces this great footage and will be available at the price suggested when there is no camera yet. I think that RED seems grossly behind target to reach their release deadline and I didnt hear what sort of lense was used to acquire these images. A realistic entry level lense or some other worldly priced prime? Many more questions than this exist in my mind before I start ditching film.

[Guest Kai.w]

Many more questions than this exist in my mind before I start ditching film.

Oh gosh you people are really funny. That was not even the topic. I`ve seen the footage on the 4k projector and I rather sure this was not CGI (and here I`d say I`m rather experienced). I know how the typical CGI DOF looks like, plus there were some rather organic imperfections. In theory, nothing is impossible in CGI but it would have taken quite some amount of work to achieve even such a mechanical object like a watch with this sort of quality. Furthermore the faces and the porsche (which had the same look like this watch) were most definately not CGI either ;-)

 

 

-k

[Jim Jannard]

This thread is just too funny. I guess it is being suggested that our footage looks too good to be real? Thank you so much. And just because you can't do it doesn't mean that we can't either? Let's see, the Assimilate people are in on the hoax? And David Stump, head of ASC, is in on the hoax? And the people at Quvis are in as well? You guys really kill me. Do you have anything valid to offer besides such nonsense?

 

Please excuse me if I take personal offense that my 30 year business career (and public scrutiny, NYSE-OO) has lead to being accused as a fraud. Get a life.

 

Jim

 

By the way, Otto Nemitz has personally been to the RED building, seen our camera, has seen the raw footage, and witnessed the grading of the footage.

 

Jim

Edited September 11, 2006 by Jim Jannard

[Matthew W. Phillips]

This thread is just too funny. I guess it is being suggested that our footage looks too good to be real? Thank you so much. And just because you can't do it doesn't mean that we can't either? Let's see, the Assimilate people are in on the hoax? And David Stump, head of ASC, is in on the hoax? And the people at Quvis are in as well? You guys really kill me. Do you have anything valid to offer besides such nonsense?

 

Please excuse me if I take personal offense that my 30 year business career (and public scrutiny, NYSE-OO) has lead to being accused as a fraud. Get a life.

 

Jim

 

By the way, Otto Nemitz has personally been to the RED building, seen our camera, has seen the raw footage, and witnessed the grading of the footage.

 

Jim

 

I never said you were a fraud. Honestly, my concerns are really that you aren't going to have your camera done as soon as you say and also that the perceived value of the 17.5k camera is going to disappoint as all the neccessary add-ons factor in. I am a low budget filmmaker so a package costing upwards towards 30k might as well be like shooting 35mm film for me. It still seems to make more sense, cost wise, to shoot 16mm. This camera most likely will not change that.

[Bryant Jansen]

Not sure if this had been posted yet:

 

IBC2006 - Red Q&A

Edited September 11, 2006 by Bryant Jansen