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Reservation timing to delivery


Patrizio De Sica
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Hi,

 

> I would like to see a grey scale exposed from +8 stops to -8 stops in 1 stop intervals.

> Happy to fly over and do the tests myself if you want!

 

I made exactly this offer to one of the folks on the stand at IBC...

 

If you post this sort of information, people will be less suspicious.

 

Actually I thought the pictures were pretty good. The reason we're being a bit cagey is that you can light something to any range you want; saying "look, that's a nice shot" doesn't tell us much if anything. Yes it's a nice shot and the sensor has very low noise; this is good. But posting images without spot meter readings in them is not informative.

 

Phil

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We had three days to shoot and still make IBC. The Porsche 959 shot was our attempt to show something brave and difficult.. We'll shoot more and test more as soon as we get home. But we are very proud of what was presented at IBC. We had many people tell us the footage was more than they had ever expected and better than they had ever seen from digital... some said better than 35mm film. We expect extreme scrutiny. And we are prepared to provide footage and information to satisfy the most demanding critic. Just give us a week. After all, we started 8 months ago.

 

Jim

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RED is not promising a firm delivery date yet. They are targeting Q2 of 2007 for the first production units, but that's just a target at this point. Your delivery will also be subject to your place in the queue.

If my delivery will also be subject to my place in the queue, the first 500 units will be delivered in the first month? Two? Three months? Jim, can you answer please?

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If the crew at RED are currently reluctant to shoot and post a professional greyscale test to prove their dynamic range claims, maybe they will shoot their own redscale test instead!

 

Jim, why do you keep coming back to this forum? You're damned either way it seems. And accusations that Red is being fraudulent are just being thrown around for fun now!

 

Forums are for public discussion, but comments like the one above could only be made from the a safe hiding place behind a computer.

 

I haven't seen footage, Australia is a bit too far from IBC, but look forward to the online posting. Or I can be flown out to supervise that grey scale test is totally above board. :)

 

I'd put it to Graeme a few times to develop something like Redcode Raw. It's great you guys are tolerant enough to maintain a dialogue with your potential customers and tailor a product to suit the needs.

 

Thanks for the patience.

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First people were hypothesizing that the RED would never show footage, then they said it would never make it to market, then they said it wouldn't be as advertised, then they said....

 

 

am I the only one with a wait and see attitude? Who the hell cares prior to release if Jim accomplishes all he set out to? Thats his money to worry about. As it stands I got 4200 feet of film in my fridge because no camera could be rented at a comperable cost/quality scale.

 

In the future (when I can get my hands on one) would I like a new choice in the price range? Hell YEAH! thats why I am rooting for them. More options can never be a bad thing. Will everyone abandon 35mm film for the Red or 65mm? no probably not, but options only empower a film maker, never limit.

 

The price range is more in line with low end HD cameras, high end SD cameras. If I had to shoot a video and had the choice between the SDX-900 and this, what would I choose? If I had seen the porche shot, maybe I would have a better idea. I was not at IBC or even in amsterdam, so what sense does it make speculating (I assure you, I have seen and followed all the red info comming out, and there is nothing to base a desicion off of. I would even hesitate to decide on their footage shown at IBC. would you watch a movie and decide the camera they used must be right for your film? I doubt it. Testing and 'quality' is a subjective thing.)

 

(before I get railed for quoting an SDX-900 compared to Red, given the cinema lenses needed for the red, assume you were planning to rent a PL addaptor and a cine lens (You know, a comperable test, substitute the SDX with the new XD HD cameras if you'd like). 27,000 SDX-900 17,500 Red + allow 10K for recording options. the rate to rent would be comperable. (I don't know what it would cost to record x amount of footage, but 10K can buy a lot of storage space rental)

 

By the way jim: I offered about 6 months ago to help you get some beutiful footage of my homestate Alaska, and you told me to contact you again when you have shown footage. Consider comming up for a visit. Its beautiful this time of year, sunsets are unmattched. Bears are still out of hibernation and moose and caribou are always present. Gorgeous footage is availible. I have contacts to the tyler mount guy up here if you want areal footage, and know all the hot spots for footage (portage glacier, denali (aka Mt McKinnley, biggest mt. in north america), North slope (get 4k footy of BP scratching their head trying to fix their damn pipes! HD footage of our corrupt politicians) native communities etc. A week or two spent up here would get you some amazing footage. Private message me if your interested.

 

If you wait too long, snow will fly and the logistics will be very different (still beautiful, but difficult to get if your still working on a breadboard.....btw, how can you handle the clock speed on a breadboard. I was never very good at EE, but I would assume a breadboard wouldn't have the sheilding to handle such high data rates, plus the capacitance between the ground lines that run every 5th line or so)

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What the hell are you talking about?

 

Jim

 

Thanks Jim, finally I got your attention for once. My hypothesis was correct in thinking that you would not leave these boards afterall. I had previously asked you a question in another thread and I dont think it was ever answered. I was utmost sincere when I asked it and I still am.

 

I will rephrase how I asked it before...

 

Is RED a good value for the filmmaker who can only afford to shoot on 16mm? When I ask this, I mean total workflow and everything. Would the cost be reasonable considering shooting till editing on a computer? For instance, if I want to make a 90 minute feature, would the RED be a better cost/ value tradeoff than 16mm film? I mean this question with all sincerity. And I dont consider a fire sale of the RED after production as a true indicator of value. Afterall, you have to come up with money initially to fund a project.

 

As far as my remark about him never having it in his hands, it is because I think as the project goes on, demand will increase such that he wont get one. Also, I feel that the price will go up as interest increases. A good thing never lasts for us poor folks, you can count on that. And I am assuming this will be a good thing. But if it is, there will be a catch.

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Thanks Jim, finally I got your attention for once. My hypothesis was correct in thinking that you would not leave these boards afterall. I had previously asked you a question in another thread and I dont think it was ever answered. I was utmost sincere when I asked it and I still am.

 

I will rephrase how I asked it before...

 

Is RED a good value for the filmmaker who can only afford to shoot on 16mm? When I ask this, I mean total workflow and everything. Would the cost be reasonable considering shooting till editing on a computer? For instance, if I want to make a 90 minute feature, would the RED be a better cost/ value tradeoff than 16mm film? I mean this question with all sincerity. And I dont consider a fire sale of the RED after production as a true indicator of value. Afterall, you have to come up with money initially to fund a project.

 

As far as my remark about him never having it in his hands, it is because I think as the project goes on, demand will increase such that he wont get one. Also, I feel that the price will go up as interest increases. A good thing never lasts for us poor folks, you can count on that. And I am assuming this will be a good thing. But if it is, there will be a catch.

 

Matthew... we had begun a cost analysis of shooting 35mm and S16 vs. REDCODE RAW before leaving for IBC. It isn't finished yet but I hope to have it done in a couple of weeks. Testing the camera is 1st priority and we still need some current numbers for telecine. Thing to remember is that from the time we post, digital will go down (drives, etc.) and film will go up.

 

Jim

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Boy Jim...

 

I appreciate you taking time to answer all the questions on this board, but isn't this getting a bit too much for you and your crew? You only just presented the first images of the camera and already you are being swarmed by people who want to know the exact delivery dates (down to when 'their' camera will be ready), the stop range, a cost comparison, etc...

 

Not that these are not valid questions, but they'd certainly be a lot easier to answer if the camera were already finished, instead of the work in progress that it is now.

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Had you said you were amazed (as all the other people who saw it), I would have flown you out to test our sensor, on my dime. Too late. :-)

Jim

 

With respect, Jim et al, this forum is starting to border on the surreal!

 

Two possibilities present themselves:

 

Either:

A. Jim Jannard is doing his very best with what he sees as a lifelong "labour of love" but, due to his lack of experience in dealing with technically-literate film and video people he is saying the wrong things and raising their suspicions.

 

Or:

B. For reasons best known to himself Jim Jannard is staging an elaborate hoax, but again, due to his inexperience in this field, the cracks are starting to show in the charade. (Before you fly into print Mr Jannard, nobody has actually seen your camera in operation, apart from yourself and your technicians. All that has been seen are some recorded images on a screen, about which unkind critics might raise the question of their actual source.)

 

With either scenario, I would have thought a sensible person would take note of what issues the so-called "Nay-sayers" are raising and modify his stance accordingly. Statements like the above quote are not particularly helpful, they only serve to "up the yeah, right ante."

 

While I personally think it would be splendidly ironic if the home of advanced Television camera design returned to the US from whence it originally sprang, apart from that I have no real interest in whether this project ever comes to fruition.

 

Until RED are able to offer a complete package - camera, recorder and lens(s) - at a firm price, I suspect a lot of other people won't be either.

 

I'm not entirely sure what advantage a lot of the people here think the RED is going to be to them anyway. If it works as advertised, you are most likely going to find yourselves competing with people who not only have a lot more industry credibility, but as like as not, also have the resources to buy a lot more REDs than you!

 

Like a lot of recent technological advances, the most likely potential outcome is that it will lift the image quality of the "bottom end" product, without necessarily producing any significant improvement in profitability, and definitely not improving the performance of any actors or writers involved!

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Hi,

 

> A. Jim Jannard is doing his very best with what he sees as a lifelong "labour of love" but, due to his lack of

> experience in dealing with technically-literate film and video people he is saying the wrong things and raising

> their suspicions.

 

I suspect that's exactly what's happening, in which case it'll all come out in the wash.

 

On occasion I have tried to say, "you really need to not say that/say this/release this data" to Red people, and they are variably receptive.

 

Phil

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I can't see the motive why someone like Jim Jannard would feel the need to set up such an elaborate hoax.

 

I can't understand why someone would crash a fully-laden airliner into an office building either, but it still happened.

 

I never specifically said it is a hoax. I was simply suggesting two possible scenarios and pointing out that in either case, his most sensible courses of action would be remarkably similar.

 

You tout yourself as supreme expert

Jim

Where?

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It seems to me that walters is an engeer. In my experience braodcast engeneers tend to be arrogent, brash, and have a slight superiority complex. This isn't a bad thing, just something I have noticed. I like all the engeneers we have at our TV station and trust me they all have the same traits.

 

That said, an engeneer is always very usefull, even if you have to put up with a certain level of abuse (most times its abuse thats a bit tounge in cheek, because our problems seem like childsplay to most engeneers). I have learned a lot from our engeneers, and from other tech people.

 

Having one on our board I think will be great, even if he does have the mentality. I think you just need to know how to interact with them and not really care if they are a bit harsh (its sorta funny to me now, cause I see it more as a game thats played) but with him on our board we can get straight answers about things we know nothing about (please don't try and dumb it down though, we are smart, if only without specific knowledge of the design and physics of a particular device. I used to study EE, until I relized I hate math, and the creativity of EE is short busts, with long computation between)

 

But also, I am curious to your exact experience myself. I probably will be addressing some questions to you in the future, so I would like to know. Maybe another post would be a better place to put the reply, I don't know. I am too lazy to start a new one, but don't really want to hijack this sharply focused disccussion.

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I'm not entirely sure what advantage a lot of the people here think the RED is going to be to them anyway. If it works as advertised, you are most likely going to find yourselves competing with people who not only have a lot more industry credibility, but as like as not, also have the resources to buy a lot more REDs than you!

 

This doesn't make any sense. I'm responding because I feel you're talking to (and by "talking to" I mean to a degree "insulting") me, as someone who called up RED within hours of them announcing their reservations to reserve one. So, presumably, I'm one of these people you speak of.

 

I'm a filmmaker, not a DP (despite one imdb credit as such I really only know enough to get by), so I hire DP's for my work. However, I also hire out cameras. Every shoot. Long shoots, short shoots. And NONE of them has as good specifications as the RED camera. And none of them are a perfectly elegant solution to the problem of independent filmmakers like myself who would love to shoot film, but rarely have the kind of budget that would require. So, why would this not be of use to me to have a camera system that I can use for everything I shoot? And if I didn't own one, I've already seen places wanted to position themselves as red renters (http://indierentals.com/cameras.html). The price is just over an SPX900, just under a varicam (depending on where you price). How could it not be an exciting idea to have a camera with vastly more lattitude and rersolution options for virtually the same price (depending on where and what you rent).

 

So I don't understand where the negativity towards people who want to create better imagery for the same price would come from? You're going to need good acting, good story, good design either way. So, where is the downside? Where does this negativity come from?

 

Are you trying to protect us in case the camera doesn't ever come to perfect fruition? Don't worry - we know it's "in development." We'll live if, like the kinetta, it enters the land of just a hope. We'll just keep renting inferior cameras and wait until one of the major names sees that there is a huge market for what Jim started.

 

Frankly, the more people say it's impossible, the more I want it. Maybe the dissenters are an elaborate marketing scheme that I'm falling for. You know, the old con where the people in collusion say, "no way, that is too good of a deal!" and then buy the cheap way over priced stolen goods so that other people think "wow, this must be a great idea."

 

I think I may be onto something here.... at least it would make sense. The constant forum torlling though with no discernable benefit to poster, vender, or consumer does not make sense though.

 

Anyway, I sure wish I had a RED camera for the shoot this weekend... until then, I use what I have and wait.

 

Mark Allen

RED #89

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This doesn't make any sense. I'm responding because I feel you're talking to (and by "talking to" I mean to a degree "insulting") me, as someone who called up RED within hours of them announcing their reservations to reserve one. So, presumably, I'm one of these people you speak of.

 

 

Mark Allen

RED #89

What I meant was, there appears to be an inordinate number of potential RED buyers who seem to imagine that the simple ownership of a RED will enable them to take work away from the likes of yourself. A far more likely scenario is that they will then simply be competing with more experienced operators (like yourself) who also own a RED (or REDs).

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Your signature identifies you as a specialist.

 

Please tell us a little about yourself, Mr. Walters.

I regret that because of pending legal action, I have been advised not to make further postings on this forum, and to close my account forthwith.

I will simply go back to "read-only" lurk mode in future.

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Tim, there appears to be no way I can close my own account.

Can you do this for me?

If that makes all my posts disappear and you would rather not have that happen, I can just leave the account and not log on again, but otherwise I would rather it was removed completely.

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just for the record:

 

- i (and 3 of my employees) have been at the IBC, including the panavision, arri and red presentations in the c-cinema

 

- no one of red has ever claimed 15 stops in our presence, but after the presentation many people in the audience speculated that. the red team said, sensor has min. 66db, ~11-12 stops.

 

- judging with only my eyes in relation to the 4K Light in the scene i would suppose that the porsche shot were 11-12 stops dynamic, with a very nice, soft "burn" out.

 

- all employees of my company saw the footage, all work hdcam/35mm on daily basis, and we all were really impressed by the testfootage.

 

sadly, i have to say, that the tone of some posts here in the forum, isn´t neither fair or balanced IMHO.

This is why i have high respect for jim jannard answering here anyhow. real sportsman.

 

What the team at red is aiming to produce is a blessing for the filmmaking community and industry as well.

 

For my company, which happens to own 35mm and hdcam gear worth several 100.000$, i see red as an oppurtunity, even if it will shake up quite a bit the rental-side of our business. I have to admit that i am not easily immpressed, but windowed 120p, 35mm sensor, finally 4k _buyable_, and an open business communication policy are nothing less than brilliant from my point of view.

 

- i we would have a working red today, 2 of 3 upcoming productions at once would be switched from 35mm and hdcam to red: one is a drama shot in a very narrow space (train compartiment) with tense action, mid-budget, 70% handheld fake-documentary shots, so 35mm dof + digital would be a excellent choice for that project.

the other one a episodic fullfeaturefilm with a brilliant cast were the emotion and closeups would perfectly blend into 60/120p modes, and with 4k we could pan/scan so the dop wouldn´t have to go to the extremes all the time. 4k isn´t really necessary for distribution/release, but it gives one so many advantages in postproduction.

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RED is not promising a firm delivery date yet. They are targeting Q2 of 2007 for the first production units, but that's just a target at this point. Your delivery will also be subject to your place in the queue.

Just to clarify, RED's repeated goal for production is (and has always been) December for engineering samples and Q1 2007 for production, not Q2.

 

And Matthew, Patrizio asked about the availability if he has a reservation. Your comment stating "as the project goes on, demand will increase such that he wont get one," makes little sense as he would have a camera already reserved for him. He'll get whatever camera is allotted to him regardless of the demand. Also, the prices are locked in if you have a reservation, so even if by production time they decide to increase the cost of the camera, those who have reservations will not be affected. Therefore, he is guaranteed a camera at the price he was quoted by having a reservation.

 

Where is all of the hostility on this board coming from?

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