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Break-in...


Jim Jannard

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These Red forums are getting worse than those nerds on the Star Wars forum.

 

There are more post and threads about the Red camera than any other HD camera in this forum.

& that includes actual existing pro HD cameras like the Cinealta and the Genesis...

Is it just me or is this ridiculous.

 

Well both types of net geeks (the Red geeks and the SW geeks) have one thing in common.

They are fighting over imaginary universes. :D

 

 

Let hope the Red delivers as much as it hype.

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I understand that this forum is run by Americans but I though it was international community? i.e. it is not America and anyone from any country in the world is free and encouraged to contribute?

 

 

Hi Brendan,

 

Please be careful about terms like "you all" because this forum, like the others, is comprised of individuals with varying opinions.

 

Greg

 

You're absolutely right, I'm sorry for saying that. Also, I'm sorry I said America, I did forget this was an international forum, I was just referring to freedom of speech (text). I'm now sorry I said anything, and no, I'm not on acid for being in America.

 

I'd appreciate if you'd just correct me, rather then call me a drug addict, that might help me actually start liking this forum. Once again, I'm sorry I said anything...

 

Brendan

Edited by Brendan Maroney
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There are more post and threads about the Red camera than any other HD camera in this forum.

& that includes actual existing pro HD cameras like the Cinealta and the Genesis...

Is it just me or is this ridiculous.

 

RED appears to be shooting for far higher volume that other digital cinema camera companies. If RED delivers as promised at $17.5K, the camera will probably be regularly used by (at least) dozens of times as many people as the CineAlta or the Genesis. So, no, it honestly doesn't seem too ridiculous that this forum gets more traffic. A lot of those people are excited.

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RED appears to be shooting for far higher volume that other digital cinema camera companies. If RED delivers as promised at $17.5K, the camera will probably be regularly used by (at least) dozens of times as many people as the CineAlta or the Genesis. So, no, it honestly doesn't seem too ridiculous that this forum gets more traffic. A lot of those people are excited.

 

 

Double that of the Sony Z1 & FX1 with I believe 60,000 cameras sold?

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Double that of the Sony Z1 & FX1 with I believe 60,000 cameras sold?

 

Well, those are prosumer cameras. This forum mostly isn't a prosumer crowd. Those cameras get more attention at dvinfo.net and dvxuser.com.

 

RED is also frankly just a lot more newsworthy. Sony's HDV cameras got lots of buzz on various forums, back when they were the first cameras that people without huge budgets could use to shoot HD. But that's old news now.

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My only problem is with this myth that the camera cost $17.5, that's only for a body....

Outside of Circuit City, that's the way camera systems are sold. The price of a Varicam is $68K (or whatever they sell for now). That's for the body. EVERYTHING is ala carte with high-end systems.

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Outside of Circuit City, that's the way camera systems are sold. The price of a Varicam is $68K (or whatever they sell for now). That's for the body. EVERYTHING is ala carte with high-end systems.

 

Don't know how to respond... should I laugh or cry... no kidding... that's my point about the myth of the $17.5...

 

If I come across a little harsh... sorry... not sure how you meant it...

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Hell, that's true inside of Circuit City, at least with still photgraphy equipment, which is the only imaging device I might actually buy at a Circuit City.

 

The first thing I probably would have done with a bundled lens would have been to put it in a box on a shelf in a closet somewhere... not exactly a value.

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Hell, that's true inside of Circuit City, at least with still photgraphy equipment, which is the only imaging device I might actually buy at a Circuit City.

 

The first thing I probably would have done with a bundled lens would have been to put it in a box on a shelf in a closet somewhere... not exactly a value.

 

Its real nice to know that everyone has so much money to burn on lenses and such. Heck, if you got that much money burdoning you down, I would be happy to relieve you of some of that burdon. I see nothing wrong with the low-budget crowd expecting a basic stock lense with a camera package that's aimed at being low cost compared to competition.

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My only problem is with this myth that the camera cost $17.5, that's only for a body....

 

I'm well aware of what's included in the $17.5K reservation package, as, I suspect, are the vast majority of RED's other supporters on this board. You get the camera body (with PL lens mount) and a camera-mounted monitor (LCD, OLED, etc. yet to be determined). RED hasn't mentioned what the power situation will be; it's possible the base package will also include a battery, though I've been assuming it won't.

 

It's frankly a little insulting that people keep pointing out that you don't get a full camera package for $17.5K, as if they believe that people who make positive comments about that price are unaware. Honestly, even in the prosumer camera world, I don't think many people who plan to use a camera for serious work believe that just the camera itself makes for a complete camera package -- even with a fixed lens camera there's lots of other stuff to buy.

 

Yes, if you actually had to accessorize RED with $40K lenses, $4K matte boxes, $20K follow focus units, $10K tripods, etc, then the $17.5K price wouldn't do much to make it more affordable. But there are lower priced alternatives, if you're willing to make compromises that are quite reasonable to make for shooters who aren't working on sets where there are a couple dozen people making union overtime wages if a shot takes a little longer. Can you get a usable package for $17.5K? No. But you can get one for $25-30K. Some people will probably manage to get out there and shoot for ~$22K, using photo lenses they already own, etc.

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Well, those are prosumer cameras. This forum mostly isn't a prosumer crowd.

You're partially wrong, I'm sorry for saying that but there is a cinematography.com subforum on 'these prosumer' cameras.

 

I'm well aware of what's included in the $17.5K reservation package, as, I suspect, are the vast majority of RED's other supporters on this board. You get the camera body (with PL lens mount) and a camera-mounted monitor (LCD, OLED, etc. yet to be determined). RED hasn't mentioned what the power situation will be; it's possible the base package will also include a battery, though I've been assuming it won't.

 

It's frankly a little insulting that people keep pointing out that you don't get a full camera package for $17.5K, as if they believe that people who make positive comments about that price are unaware. Honestly, even in the prosumer camera world, I don't think many people who plan to use a camera for serious work believe that just the camera itself makes for a complete camera package -- even with a fixed lens camera there's lots of other stuff to buy.

 

Yes, if you actually had to accessorize RED with $40K lenses, $4K matte boxes, $20K follow focus units, $10K tripods, etc, then the $17.5K price wouldn't do much to make it more affordable. But there are lower priced alternatives, if you're willing to make compromises that are quite reasonable to make for shooters who aren't working on sets where there are a couple dozen people making union overtime wages if a shot takes a little longer. Can you get a usable package for $17.5K? No. But you can get one for $25-30K. Some people will probably manage to get out there and shoot for ~$22K, using photo lenses they already own, etc.

Well, those are prosumer cameras. This forum mostly isn't a prosumer crowd.

You're absolutely right, I'm sorry for saying that but... Do you guys have fear of a still photography lenses set-up competition?... :lol:

 

Or do you think your knowledge (and talent?) isn't it enough to compete with the 'prosumer' crowd? :D

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I'm well aware of what's included in the $17.5K reservation package, as, I suspect, are the vast majority of RED's other supporters on this board. You get the camera body (with PL lens mount) and a camera-mounted monitor (LCD, OLED, etc. yet to be determined). RED hasn't mentioned what the power situation will be; it's possible the base package will also include a battery, though I've been assuming it won't.

 

Okay so you're one of the few who at least half way gets it... but you and I still have unknown answers...

 

1. We don't know the cost of RedRam... the RedDrive or what other recording device... a $1,000... that's just some number that's been thrown out... it hasn't been confirmed...

 

2. We really don't know the cost of post work flow... oops why do we not know... we don't know because they're still working on it...

 

Chris answer an honest question... would you go buy a car for $17.5 if you had no clue what features it comes with... well.. they say it'll go a 120 mph in five seconds... so you're guessing it has a V8... yeah maybe it does... maybe it want or maybe it'll go 120 mph down the biggest hill in town...

 

Would you still go out and buy that car?

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Or do you think your knowledge (and talent?) isn't it enough to compete with the 'prosumer' crowd? :D

 

No I have no fear... I've seen some great stuff shot with the prosumer stuff... I've seen kids who can light and have more talent than I did when I was a kid... gee I have to admit I'm older... :(

 

I can remember my first sync sound film project in film school cost me well over $3,000 for just a minute because are final grade were based upon seeing a film print... but by doing that minute project it taught us the whole film making process in terms of making a film... and gee back then my film school buddies and I would have loved to have all this prosumer gear back then...

 

I just believe in reality... and when the reality says that a kid posts on another site... "wow... when I get my next pay check on Friday... I'll finally have my $1,000 to put a hold on the camera"...

 

Where is he going to come up with the money for lights, sound, grip equipment and a hundred more little things... to me this guy will learn more on buying prosumer equipment and make several films over the course of the next year or so and that will help him more than owning a Red...

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Okay so you're one of the few who at least half way gets it... but you and I still have unknown answers...

 

1. We don't know the cost of RedRam... the RedDrive or what other recording device... a $1,000... that's just some number that's been thrown out... it hasn't been confirmed...

 

2. We really don't know the cost of post work flow... oops why do we not know... we don't know because they're still working on it...

 

The "under $1,000" number for REDDRIVE has been mentioned by RED employees. It's also a price that's quite technically feasible. The digital magazine will basically be a 2.5" hard drive in an external case, after all; you can buy an 80 GB 2.5" FireWire 800 hard drive in a ruggedized case for $180. Given RED's other pricing, it seems pretty far fetched they'd try to charge some outrageous price.

 

As far as post workflow goes, we don't know the cost in the sense that RED might come up with a cheaper, more convenient way to finish in 4K. There are ways to finish at 4K today on a reasonable budget. Edit offline, conform in Final Cut (yes, it can be coerced into working at 4K), do color grading in AfterEffects or Shake. This requires maybe a $3K workstation and $1500 worth of hard drives for a feature (assuming you never go to uncompressed, which is possible). A lot of people interested in RED probably already own the workstation.

 

Alternatively, since there's not much reason to finish in 4K unless you get a serious theatrical distribution deal, don't do a 4K conform until you get one, and get the distributor to pick up the tab for a more traditional (and expensive) DI workflow.

 

Chris answer an honest question... would you go buy a car for $17.5 if you had no clue what features it comes with... well.. they say it'll go a 120 mph in five seconds... so you're guessing it has a V8... yeah maybe it does... maybe it want or maybe it'll go 120 mph down the biggest hill in town...

 

Would you still go out and buy that car?

 

It's not a valid analogy. Deposits are fully refundable. It's extremely doubtful that RED will demand people make a final decision about whether to buy before the full specs are known.

 

Hi Chris,

 

Do you know of any $20k follow focus units?

 

OK, you get a wireless unit that controls more than just focus for that much, but even so.

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Chris... I guess you're a braver soul than myself... its my parents fault (just kidding)...

 

I like the idea of Red... I like the idea of what its trying to do...

 

But I can't keep getting this saying out of my head that my father used to say... He told me never to buy a car the first year it comes out... buy it the second year after all the bugs are worked out...

 

So I rather wait and buy the next years model... and see how much this camera is really going to cost... and I understand about your workflows... I'd be happy with just a 35mm dof 24p 1080p camera...

 

I like some of the images... again a repeat that I've said... not just because we have some young women being shown... but I have liked what I saw... the dead pixel things... I figure they'll get that all worked out...

 

The only shots that I didn't care for where the watch and car... they looked too fake to me (one never been a big fan of cgi or actually too much cgi)... and again let me say... I like the shot of the girl blowing bubbles...

 

But like I said I'll wait and learn from all your mistakes... I'll let you be the guinea pig... did I spell that right... :o

Edited by Gary McClurg
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The only shots that I didn't care for where the watch and car...

 

Gary,

 

Thank you for that! JJ was very annoyed with me for saying I was 'disappointed' with the car footage, apparently the whole world except me thought that shot was brilliant!

 

Stephen

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Gary,

 

Thank you for that! JJ was very annoyed with me for saying I was 'disappointed' with the car footage, apparently the whole world except me thought that shot was brilliant!

 

Stephen

 

I think the first report out of IBC... they guy said he didn't care for those shots (but he did say the rest of the footage was something between film and HD)... so there are others... but let me repeat... feel like you have do this everytime... I like the other shots... oh I'll take that back... didn't care for the green screen... I just saw the frame grab... again not saying it can't be green screen... I just didn't care for the shot of Jarred chainsawing a pumpkin...

Edited by Gary McClurg
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Yeah, the script could go something like this: New hi-tech startup borrows lots of money to develop prototype. Investors get antsy when prototype doesn't live up to hype...feel they're being taken for a ride. When company can't make good on investment, investors decide to confiscate equipment. Company employees hasten to hide gear, claiming it was stolen. They even keep jacking up the reward money, since they know it will never be paid anyway. Company brass end up being charged with fraud, after which they're sent to "country club" prison, where they proceed to hustle fellow prisoners into backing them for the next startup, which will be referred to as "Blue". Sorry, I couldn't resist, but something sounds fishy.

 

Anybody ever told you you are a D*?

 

Jim, why dont you look after your project man. If I had reserved one, I would be pissed right now. But not at the burgler but at you for not protecting our interest. Sir, it all comes down to you. You are the leader and the praise and the blame stops at you. I assume 20+ years in business taught you that much.

 

God, the D* invasion has no limits. OMG! Dude, get a life and get out of the RED or the HD forum for that matter. If RED ain't for you stop trolling and leave people that are looking forward to RED the h* alone.

Go shoot some 35mm and forget about us here.

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Anybody ever told you you are a D*?

God, the D* invasion has no limits. OMG! Dude, get a life and get out of the RED or the HD forum for that matter. If RED ain't for you stop trolling and leave people that are looking forward to RED the h* alone.

Go shoot some 35mm and forget about us here.

 

Mike, look at the date on that post. Have you looked at updated post? I said I wasnt going to "harass" RED products anymore. And I haven't. The only mention I have made has been concerning price. Don't insult when you arent even up to speed on posts.

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You can't be serious?

Taking people's money for a product you never intend to deliver is called fraud, people go to jail for such things. Now I'm not saying that is the case with JJ and Red.

 

 

Yeah right!

 

I just want to know what hole you guys will hide when RED start shipping.

 

 

 

 

 

PS: Cleaning up the glass? Next time try iron bars.

 

Of course, Iron bars, because every camera manufacturer have the security of a nuclear power plant on their facilities. Gosh!! Give us a break dude. Just go shoot some 35mm and evaporate from the HD forums already.

 

Why are you posting that? I already read it at DVXuser.com. I dont need to read it here too. You couldve posted a link but this is just spam.

 

Oh, and what you and some others have been doing since RED started is not spam?

 

 

 

 

 

 

ok :rolleyes:

Edited by Michael Maier
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Mike, look at the date on that post. Have you looked at updated post? I said I wasnt going to "harass" RED products anymore. And I haven't. The only mention I have made has been concerning price. Don't insult when you arent even up to speed on posts.

 

 

That doesn't change the fact you spammed us all for months with those numb minded stupid comments. I actually still wonder why you are still around if you don't believe RED? Why don't you just hang out on the film forum or whatever is it you respect?

After comments like this one :

Clint, if you think people become Billionaires by being honest upright folk, you need to do your research. I quit being a business major because of the many awful and cruel stories of businessmen and their practices, which are largely acceptable in that field. For instance, car manufacturers who would rather pay out settlements instead of recalling cars because its cheaper to let people die than to recall the cars. Thats about how business works.

?that has nothing to do with the break in or cinematography, just to once more insult Jim, you have the face to ask not be insulted? If you don't have a though skin don't insult others. I can and will hold you for anything you said. I don't care if it's now or a week ago, it still moronic.

 

I'm just sick of all the personal attacks and silly jokes and absurd theories on this particular forum by people that don't even intend to buy the camera (apparently). They are just bringing the whole community down. Just get out if you don't like RED or put your money where your mouth is and present some EVIDENCE of all the crap and fraud accusations you all have been vomiting around. Otherwise SHUT UP and let people that want to wait and see before criticizing exchange useful thoughts.

 

Oh, and it?s Michael for you!

 

 

 

Yeah, especially those expecting a refund.

 

Why isn't this guy banned yet?

 

This is ridiculous! Jim should sue this guy for all he's got so he would learn never to make unfounded accusations anymore.

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