Why Red causes conflict, and the future of filmmaking

[Gavin Greenwalt]

im bashing the non believers.. the people who have no faith in JIM and RED. the camera will be the best thing ever. i cant wait. i think its funny when all these people try to claim its not possible because blah blah blah. I dont care if THEY cant make it work.. all that matters is that RED CAN make it work and they will

 

First of all there should be no such thing as a "believer" in an unproven technology. I think they have a relatively high probability of success, but they could always discover tommarow that for reasons beyond their comprehension the sensor ceases to function outside of the state of california.... to list just one of many possible scenarios that can come up. The point is nobody knows. Not reservation holders, not critics, and not the developers. I would be careful what assurance you attribute to the activities of any human being other than yourself. You can guarantee you'll love red. That's fine. But you can't guarantee it'll come to production. Jim might accidentally kill an intruder and be taken to jail for the rest of his life because it was his ex-girlfriend's lover and they were seen fighting hours earlier. It *could* happen and until it does happen we just don't know.

 

- Gavin

[jan von krogh]

I read this on the Red forum at DVX and almost fell out of my chair:

 

"I wish RED would release a high quality, low price, very wide angle prime. Seems like there is a good demand for it."

 

What? A complainer a whiner a doubter? He's going to be on the DVX banned list very soon.

 

R,

 

Mr. Boddington,

 

you were the first or second person i have ever seen banned at dvxuser.com, a community which usually is friendly and open for critic.

 

that they have banned you is a move that i can understand. destructive and offensive posts are rather the exception there.

 

i don´t think that it makes any sense that you blow up your personal vendetta to a us vs. them topic. There is no "us", and no "them", and bad manners are no way to alter that.

 

also, i think 3 or 4, maybe even 5 members here should watch their language. i think it would be in the best interest of this bulletinboard to try to use a more civil language to allow constructive discussion with professional content, something i certainly missed in your recent posts.

[Emanuel A Guedes]

But on the dozen or so feature films that I have worked on (...) in 'Girl with a Pearl Earring' was an interior set and we put (...)

Did you know my countryman Eduardo Serra? I had opportunity to know him personally during my film school years. Nice and humble man. And an unique cinematographer too. Edited November 3, 2006 by Mr. Emanuel A. Guedes

[Matthew W. Phillips]

also, i think 3 or 4, maybe even 5 members here should watch their language.

 

Who are you anyway? The forum police? I think you are ridiculously offensive and are a fanboy to boot. But I dont continually remind you of that point. Facts are: DVXuser is not a free speech community...cut and dry. Its total groupthink there, and frankly it borders on nauseating at times. I agree with whomever said they couldnt read past a page of the uncontested praise and worship JJ was getting for a still of some milk maids.

[Guest]

Mr. Boddington,

 

you were the first or second person i have ever seen banned at dvxuser.com, a community which usually is friendly and open for critic.

 

that they have banned you is a move that i can understand. destructive and offensive posts are rather the exception there.

 

i don´t think that it makes any sense that you blow up your personal vendetta to a us vs. them topic. There is no "us", and no "them", and bad manners are no way to alter that.

 

also, i think 3 or 4, maybe even 5 members here should watch their language. i think it would be in the best interest of this bulletinboard to try to use a more civil language to allow constructive discussion with professional content, something i certainly missed in your recent posts.

 

Yes mother will do.

 

Oh and one last thing mother...my post at DVX was in no way offensive. Unlike the numerous posts I see over there that use four letter words, mine contained NONE.

 

Oddly I see you have no qualms with DVX members who come over here and say things like this in this very thread: "im bashing the non believers.. " Why don't you lecture them?

 

Night night mommy.

 

R,

[Häakon]

First of all there should be no such thing as a "believer" in an unproven technology.

Belief in the unproven is what motivates most of this world.

[Rik Andino]

I have a reservation. It seemed like a good bet;

if it doesn't pan out to my liking, I'll cancel, get my money back, and wait until someone tries again.

 

So are you getting this camera only because you love gadgets or are you an actual shooter.

Most working filmmakers don't have a year to wait for a camera to shoot their film.

There are many formats and cameras out there that are affordable for indie filmmakers to use.

 

It seems most of these red supporters aren't serious filmmakers

They're just amatuers waiting for this camera to come out so they can shoot their 4k opus.

 

Good Luck (the rest will continue shooting with what's available now)

[Bill DiPietra]

Belief in the unproven is what motivates most of this world.

 

It's a camera, not a deity. Get a grip, people.

[Max Jacoby]

Oh boy...

 

In my opinion.. i hope red does in fact raise their prices.. at least high enough so the non believers and skeptics on this site cant afford one once its amazing glory comes to life..

 

Ever heard of the concept of renting? Cause that's what you do when you go beyond the no/extremely low budget work of wedding and bar mitzvahs shoots. If someone really, desperately wants to shoot on the Red, he will get it from a dedicated rental company.

 

and also.. theres gunna be too many cinematographers out there.. i want job security. so please raise the red rates..

Same here too, once you get to a proper budget level, people get hired based on skill, not on the kind of camera they own. A camera is just a tool and if you think owning a Red will make you a better cinematographer, think again.

 

 

Did you know my countryman Eduardo Serra? I had opportunity to know him personally during my film school years. Nice and humble man. And an unique cinematographer too.

Eduardo is a lovely man and an amazing artist I was disappointed when he didn't get the Oscar for 'Girl', because I really felt his work was by far the best that year.

[Rik Andino]

yah im from dvx.. but so what? im bashing the non believers.. the people who have no faith in JIM and RED.

 

I dunno about The DVXuser forum (gosh what a great name for a forum :rolleyes: )

But here in Cinematography.com Forum you're required to use your real name no net aliases.

So I recommend you change it or else risk having Tim boot you out.

 

Second--Red is a camera not a religion please don't treat it as such.

 

 

Is it remotely possible we could avoid having this thread degenerate into another forum war? Discussing some of the issues on which different demographics don't see eye-to-eye with respect to RED and the future of cinematography is reasonable, but sniping at posters on other forums, making vague generalizations about diverse groups of users, etc. is really rather boring and unproductive.

 

This is a very sensible post and I agree...

Although I will say it's not boring--ridiculous & unproductive...yes

But it's never boring watching idiots insult each other

It's like kangaroo boxing matches. :D

[Brian Drysdale]

In my opinion.. i hope red does in fact raise their prices.. at least high enough so the non believers and skeptics on this site cant afford one once its amazing glory comes to life.. I don't care if it goes up in price.. im on the reservation list. im guaranteed 17,500. and also.. theres gunna be too many cinematographers out there.. i want job security. so please raise the red rates..

 

Why should a new camera create too many cinematographers? It's not just about a camera, there's a whole package that comes with being a cinematographer. Just because you've got a word processor doesn't mean you're a writer.

 

RED is a just camera under development, not a new religion. It needs someone with vision using it, the camera itself doesn't create the vision, it's only a means to an end.

 

Job security doesn't come with raised prices and, unfortunately, you won't find it in this industry.

[Gavin Greenwalt]

I just want to remind some individuals that DVXuser.com is the composite of more than 20,000 members, myself included. Let's not make overarching, insulting comments about a group of individuals that large. Many of them I've come to know as thoughtful, intelligent and well informed individuals. I don't judge Cinematography.com and include myself in its community, and I expect the same of DVXuser.com

 

I didn't expect the RED camera to ever produce a 4k image by July. I thought the whole thing was unlikely considering the resources available to such a small team in comparison to a mega corporation with established digital cinema contacts. I thought that the ability to shoot 4k would be a pipedream because no indie could afford the storage and pipeline. And I've said as much on DVXuser.com over the last year. Guess what, I never got banned, I never got insulted, I never was rediculed.

 

When I see something of worth I compliment it. When I see a problem I point it out. In April there was a discussion on DVXuser about the "Revolution that RED would bring." I replied that there was no revolution adn the whole thing was nothing more than a cool new gadget. You know what Jared's reply was "Jesus im.thatoneguy... incredible post." <http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?p=511901#post511901> He didn't call me an ass hole, he wasn't insulting and that's more than I can say about some of the posts here.

 

So don't tell me what DVXuser.com is and isn't. I know what it is, I've been a member for more than a year. Less time than I've been reading Cinematography.com but I think I've come to mostly understand it. It's not a big pile of religious zealots marching off to war with Film for glory and the digital way of life. 'JarRED' isn't some sort of spiritual leader spreading rumours and lies he's another guy who's excited about something new. He's helpful, insightful and knows his tech. Jim can be brass, he can be bold (not unlike some of the members here) and he speaks his mind. He's also excited about what he's doing and doesn't hold back. He's not some goon out to bury film and turn a profit at the expense of a bunch of neophytes who don't know any better (I don't think RED will ever take more than a hobby sized chunk from his bank account.) And DVXuser.com is comprised of experienced, inexperienced, intelligent, outright stupid, promising and hopeless individuals: all speaking their mind. The signal to noise ratio might pretty low, but it's loud either way.

Edited November 3, 2006 by Gavin Greenwalt

[Häakon]

Good Luck (the rest will continue shooting with what's available now)

That excuse is tiresome and loses validity with every passing day. It's not as if the camera is still three years off. If you have work to shoot now, use whatever it is you're already shooting with and stop whining. It doesn't change the fact that in four or five months something better than whatever you're using now is coming down the pipe and those of us who care about the quality of the images are interested in constructively discussing the pros and cons of the system. Pointless negative banter is just a waste of bandwidth.

 

It's a camera, not a deity.

I'll gladly put my money on the camera showing up before the second coming of your deity. :)

[Keith Mottram]

yeah, we have negotiations with 2 fullfeatures & 1 doc for mid-late 2007 who want to go red if available. 1 instead of 35mm, 2 instead of cinealta. all are b-budget.

i am not certain. the body (after the first peak in demand) will be less expensive than a typical arri/sony.

however, as we have integrated post etc i suppose more service there and also i expect that the typical 30-60 days shooting * 5-8 / year schematic we see per camera will be somewhat more outbooked.

 

also, the HDV & DV & broadcast rental houses charge -sick- price for the hvx & jvc hdc.... the hvx is going ~200/day here in berlin, and the ps pro 35 is also overpriced IMHO. so i suppose we will fish in that pond a little bit as well.

 

then - usually we have lot of unrented 35/16 glass, as we have a choice here. usually 50-75% HD glass and 25-50% 35/16 glass in use. I suppose that besides the regular clients budget-style red-clients will show up which would be excited to rent zeiss 35 / s16 primes pr even sets of them.

 

cinealta however has its niche of its own anyhow, i am rather interested in seing how 35mm digital / 35mm chemical will be balanced.

 

and finally, rental is just one part. we are a studio, we produce, we have inhouse grade/di and digital vs. film is much cheaper if you own and know HOW to do it.

 

Jan,

 

your company sounds very interesting and versatile, have you a link for it please.

 

keith

[A. Whitehouse]

It depends on the individuals, some people use zooms all the time (like Vilmos Zsigmond) and some hardly ever. But the point is that these shows use zooms that are about a stop faster (T2.2 for the 17-80mm Optimo, T2.3 for the 17.5-75mm Primo) than the Red Zoom (f2.8 which should be about T3) and they also have budgets to light sets to their desired lighting level. Make no mistake, a T3 zoom does not get you very far if you have a night scene and no budget to light it.

 

Hi Max,

 

I was wondering how often many of these productions get close to shooting wide open? Although not related, I worked with the Optimo on the front of the P + S pro and was amazed how stitched up we were and how often we would reach for the superspeeds. I know how slow the system is but its amazing the difference a stop can make when you're shooting in a small room with hot lights...

 

The other question (for everyone generally)I have is whether the red will still shoot 4K if I limit the sensor to S16 sized frame with S16 lenses? I suspect not... and if not what then would the effective resolution of that frame be? And, while Im sure that I can go and find the specs buried somewhere, I find it misleading to stack the features of the camera as though no sacrifices need be made. For instance will I be able to do this at once:

 

Outstanding Image Quality (This term comes up a lot)

Shoot 4K

4 : 4 : 4

120FPS

With S16mm lenses ( and some way of monitoring sharps, would an optical finder be nice?)

To a format which I will be able to watch back on set whether through the camera or through a laptop or split

with support for this format the week it comes out rather than a year down the line (ala PAL support for the HVX)

 

Reading a spec lists it would seem all of this is possible and more. I know its possible on film...

 

"People who have backgrounds in digital media or technology, on the other hand, aren't really too surprised by or skeptical about what RED is claiming. We've been seeing rapid innovation for years, small companies that upset industries, dramatic price shifts, etc. It's just the way the industry works."

 

I would say from my experience that most film sets Ive been on have been with some of the most bleeding edge equipment and technically proficient people Ive met. I dont think anyone in the film industry is afraid of rapid innovation and I can think of long lists of film makers who have caused industry wide upsets. I would think that the cell phone saw a more rapid uptake amongst filmmakers than almost any other industry. That was a revolution. Can I point out that the film industry is a MUCH maturer industry than both the digital media and 'technologies' industries. How many RED1 users will be happy to continue shooting once the RED2 comes out and how will that effect the rental and second hand markets. How many "DVXusers" are going to want to plonk down 18K every two years to remain "Bleeding edge". I know all these points have been made before, I dont post often, I apologize for the repetition.

The HVX has proven enormously popular here in Melbourne and it has driven the prices of S16mm rentals way down. I must admit it can be hard to swallow sometimes when you're renting a 15 year old SR2 package and you just imagine how many times it must have paid itself off over the years.

Im sorry; I dont post very often, I just wanted some of these questions answered. RED just seems to take so much energy out of this forum.

 

Sasha

[K Borowski]

Jim can be brass, he can be bold (not unlike some of the members here) and he speaks his mind. He's also excited about what he's doing and doesn't hold back. He's not some goon out to bury film and turn a profit at the expense of a bunch of neophytes who don't know any better

 

He may not be a goon, but I definitely think he's out ot burry film. I think he has more money than he knows what to do with, and for a "hobby" he can put his money to much better uses than stirring up an industry and trying to loose a lot of people their jobs.

[Chris Kenny]

So are you getting this camera only because you love gadgets or are you an actual shooter.

Most working filmmakers don't have a year to wait for a camera to shoot their film.

There are many formats and cameras out there that are affordable for indie filmmakers to use.

 

It seems most of these red supporters aren't serious filmmakers

They're just amatuers waiting for this camera to come out so they can shoot their 4k opus.

 

Good Luck (the rest will continue shooting with what's available now)

 

I'm not a professional DoP, if that's what you mean. I'm forming a company with a couple of other people (who have done some shooting on 16mm, etc.), that will do a range of video production work, with the goal of increasingly shifting over toward producing features. I'm personally coming into this from the tech industry. I have a pretty broad skill set; everything from network administration to web development to video editing, including significant experience with the more creative side of things (web design, etc.).

 

I think that's a pretty valuable skill set to have, in terms of tackling the technical and creative challenges that will be associated with this camera. With, say, web development, there's a lot of technical stuff, but it all works in service of an end-user experience incorporating beautiful design, streamlined functionality etc. It's very much a creative process. This kind of marriage between the creative and the technical is also why I'm attracted to filmmaking, I think. I've been having a lot of fun giving myself a crash course in, well, pretty much everything related to making a feature.

 

None of this is waiting around for RED; the wheels are already in motion. But RED seems pretty much ideal for this operation. It's one camera with the flexibility to do just about everything we'll be doing, that's cheap enough for us to buy outright. Being able to buy is important, since we'll be using the camera many more days per year than we'd be likely to if we were just shooting features.

[Max Jacoby]

Hi Max,

 

I was wondering how often many of these productions get close to shooting wide open?

It depends on the cinematographers really. Some, like Benoit Delhomme on 'Merchant' work a lot with bouced light and really like that shallow-focus wide-open look. The film was shot on 5218 500T and Ultra Primes and there were instances where even day exteriors where shot at T1.9 or close to it. A lot of the lighting in these instances was about taking light away with huge black-cloth frames. Most night scenes in that film were wide-open as well and the focus-pullers really earned their pay. Day interiors were between T2 and 2.8 mostly I recall. I think the highest he ever went was T2.8 1/2 and that was for the big court-room scene at the end.

 

On 'Girl' the night scenes were also around T2 and T2 1/2 (on the Cooke S4s), but we also carried some Superspeeds that were used wide-open for some wider night scenes.

 

In general the smaller the budget, the more wide-open it gets really, especially for night scenes. Only big-budget Hollywood films can afford to light large night exteriors to T2.8 or T2.8 1/2, which they need for their anamorphic lenses to start looking their best.

[Timothy Brown]

He may not be a goon, but I definitely think he's out ot burry film. I think he has more money than he knows what to do with, and for a "hobby" he can put his money to much better uses than stirring up an industry and trying to loose a lot of people their jobs.

 

 

Interesting statement Karl. Perhaps this is a fundamental concern and thus a cause for an abundance of the backlash on these boards for what the Red team is trying to accomplish. Personally I think most of the cinematographers on these boards have little to fear from those that are enthusiastic about the introduction of the Red One as I see it as just another hammer, but I have been wrong in the past. I just don't understand all the back and forth, so perhaps Karl's statements hit the nail on the head.

[Chris Kenny]

He may not be a goon, but I definitely think he's out ot burry film. I think he has more money than he knows what to do with, and for a "hobby" he can put his money to much better uses than stirring up an industry and trying to loose a lot of people their jobs.

 

I doubt Jim specifically wants people to lose their jobs. But stirring up industries is a hobby I firmly approve of, and will probably take up myself if I'm ever worth $1.5B. Heh. That's how progress gets made, and in the long run everyone generally ends up better off as a result.

Edited November 3, 2006 by Chris Kenny

[Gary McClurg]

He may not be a goon, but I definitely think he's out ot burry film. I think he has more money than he knows what to do with, and for a "hobby" he can put his money to much better uses than stirring up an industry and trying to loose a lot of people their jobs.

 

This one gets me... I don't really know Jannard... never met the man... so I have no clue what he's like as a person.... he could be an okay guy or he could be a not so okay guy...

 

But why is it that people always think if you work your butt off you have to give your money away...

 

That was weird it posted what I wrote like three times in the same page...

Edited November 3, 2006 by Gary McClurg

[Guest]

He may not be a goon, but I definitely think he's out ot burry film. I think he has more money than he knows what to do with, and for a "hobby" he can put his money to much better uses than stirring up an industry and trying to loose a lot of people their jobs.

 

It's not a concern Karl no one will lose their jobs because of Red.

 

A scenario like this will never happen: Major network TV show like "er" gives DOP job to 22 year old with Red camera, and saves thousands. Not going to happen.

 

If there are people out there with visions of busting down the doors of the Hollywood establishment with their Red cameras and tossing all the ASC members out onto the streets, they'll be dissapointed.

 

How do you see Red costing jobs Karl? I'm not buying one, but I don't see how people will lose their jobs?????????

 

There are already lots of low cost high quality HD systems available.

 

R,

[Chris Kenny]

As several people have pointed out previously, we've seen this kind of thing before. The desktop publishing revolution didn't put graphic designers out of business. New creative technologies merely open up opportunities; achieving actual success still requires talent.

 

We probably will see the industry open up a little more and become more competitive. This isn't necessarily bad for the folks who are in the industry now; they've probably got the skills they need to compete very well.

Edited November 3, 2006 by Chris Kenny

[Dan Goulder]

People should quit getting dazzled over marketing hype and "numbers". (Wow...4K is a whole two-thousand more than 2K!) The differences between various electronic capture systems above the standard def level are far more subtle than they are dramatic. Anyone who thinks yet-to-be-released technology is going to make them look any more professional than they would using current state-of-the-art gear (including 35mm) is sadly deluded.

[Leo Anthony Vale]

But why is it that people always think if you work your butt off you have to give your money away...

 

Andrew Carnegie said it's the proper thing to do.

He spent half of his life amassing a fortune and half giving it away.