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...about film prints...


Filip Plesha

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I always wondered about some print issues...

i guess you people here can answer them..

 

The cinema where i go usually is an older type with one big room (red curtains and all..) and does not have a platter system,but uses two projectors

changing after 20 minutes.

 

First reel looks normal always..

second reel has a bit sharper image,more contrast and in times when

they had optical sound,the sound was always way more sharper almost

unpleasant at some points.

then the third reel goes back to normal,more smooth image,less contrast

and smoother optical sound..

So every odd real has a normal look and even reel has a sharper look.

 

After they installed dolby evething sounds same,but the image still changes

from reel to reel.

 

first i thought it might be that they have different projector manufacturers for

each projector,but i noticed it in other cinemas too,

and on some TV programs that were telecined from prints (like some old

european films)

 

i remember while waching the first lord of the rings film,one reel looked really vierd

with a look remiscent of DVD edge enhancement...this was the

even (sharper) reel,perhaps forth

 

Allso,why do few frames on the end of the reel fade to black?

 

 

And one more question, how are those circles in the corner acomphished?

Does the film printer have an automated feature form making those circles?

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That is a tower system that probably has so many different components gone through it over the years that when it changes reel it is practically another projector throwing the image. Lens, Bulb, Bulb Housing and Mirror can all lead to the diversity you are seeing, however I would say that this is mostly a bulb issue and you can get it too with Platter systems. If the bulb is old the image quality can change dramatically from reel to reel.

 

Also some reels are not printed in the order of 1 to 6. Sometimes one printing house is allocated reels 1,3,6 and another does 2 and 5 and there can be slight differences in the quality from each.

 

The reason while the reels are turning black is because of poor projectionists not doing the reel changes in time or cutting the film right when assembly for the platter takes place. It should not happen and will not happen with good projectionists.

 

The lab that prints the films makes those dots you see. They are put on the master print and copied.

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I didn't mean the frames on screen...

 

i meant if you look at some prints,the end few frames fade to black,sometimes with a color tint to them..

 

 

i know lab does those circles,but how is my question..

is it automated? Does the printer machine do them?

 

Anyay,about the reels,as i said,i have seen this exact effect in more

than one theater...

it is not that reels are different,but they are different in the exact sam way

It would be a coincidence that they had exact same combination of

projectors or their parts and age...

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The circles are done by hand (in NZ anyway). The lab has a small solid base which holds 4 frames and a round scraper is inserted into each hole and the film emulsion is scraped off. For bulk printing it can be done to the Int/Pos and then when extra negatives are made these don't need to be made on every print.

 

There are two sets of four holes, the first set is 12 feet from the end of the roll, the second is 22 frames from the end of the reel. Which should give the projectionist time to start the second projector and then do the change over to the next reel.

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I didn't mean the frames on screen...

 

i meant if you look at some prints,the end few frames fade to black,sometimes with a color tint to them..

 

 

i know lab does those circles,but how is my question..

is it automated? Does the printer machine do them?

 

Anyay,about the reels,as i said,i have seen this exact effect in more

than one theater...

it is not that reels are different,but they are different in the exact sam way

It would be a coincidence that they had exact same combination of

projectors or their parts and age...

I have projected thousands of hours of footage, made up films and broken down more than I can remember and I am a certified projectionist by the way.

 

Okay your question about the quality change in reels is probably like I said. Reel 1, 4, 6 are printed by a different printer to reels 2, 5, 7 etc and then packaged together elsewhere. The difference is in the printers quality and that is what can cause the films to look different. Tower switching can also do this too if they projectors have different components.

 

Have you noticed a film break (not a reel change but a damaged area that has been fixed) and then this change happens? If so then that is because the gate moves slightly and the image changes because of this (fraction of a mm can make all the difference in the quality. In reality the projectionist should always check focus after a reel change.) but if you are seeing changes in the actually quality of the film from reel to reel the answer is in two different printers doing the reels.

 

 

The reels fade to black sometimes at the end (the foot) but not all of them. Sometimes they just stop dead and the projectionist cuts the last frame away. If they fade then they are usually marked afterwards as to where the cut should be made. In most cases this is just simply a fade out on that scene before the next one and this is where the distributors decided to stop that reel. Fade outs are a pain in the ass for projectionists by the way. We prefer to cut on an image we can clearly see but you can do it both ways. Sometimes they do add fades to the end of the reel just to make the transition easier to the next reel.

 

Give me more details and I could probably help you with anything projection related.

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The http://www.film-tech.com Film Handlers Forum has about 2000 projectionists, theatre managers, and equipment service engineers participating, and is a good place to better understand the good and bad things that affect theatrical presentation quality. Their motto is "Film Done Right".

 

Seeing a distinct difference between even and odd numbered reels points directly at the theatre's projectors as being the cause. Although different printers are used by the labs, there is no direct correlation between reel number and the equipment used.

 

Cue marks are usually put on the film in the intermediate stages, not to the cut original negative. Cues and leaders are specified by standard SMPTE 301M.

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@ IBL

 

About the fading...

you dont really notice it on screen...

i am talking when you hold the print in your hands,you can see it on some prints.

 

And about tower swiching..

 

If this is only a matter of different projector then it is really

a coincidence that more different theaters have the same

set of different projectors,because in more theater i have seen this.

And it is always the same way...first print smoother,second sharper and

contrasty..

 

Anyway....those cue marks are on the internegative right?

Because you never see them on interpositives from which DVD's

and TV transfers are from..

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@ IBL

 

About the fading...

you dont really notice it on screen...

i am talking when you hold the print in your hands,you can see it on some prints.

 

And about tower swiching..

 

If this is only a matter of different projector then it is really

a coincidence that more different theaters have the same

set of different projectors,because in more theater i have seen this.

And it is always the same way...first print smoother,second sharper and

contrasty..

 

Anyway....those cue marks are on the internegative right?

Because you never see them on interpositives from which DVD's

and TV transfers are from..

Yes the fade out on the actual print can be 2 things.

 

1) That scene actually fades out.

2) This is done on the print for a smoother transition to the next scene.

 

However it is not on all prints or reels. Only some have this.

 

I could be wrong here but I think this has to do with the following scene and if there is a big difference in brightness or contrast then the cut might be more harsh on the eye without a little fade between the cuts. I know the fade you mean. It looks like a fade going down but not quite right? Like the last 10 frames or something.

 

 

About the change from reel to reel. This is usually just two projectors with different parts that get replaced as time goes by. However I also know for a fact that reels get printed by different companies and the quality does change a bit between them sometimes. 1,3,5 done in ROME and 2,4,6 done in PARIS or something like that. However I have also seen bulbs that have lost some of their luminance do this too and when new bulbs are installed the difference goes away. This is actually one of the problems with film. It is not always that faithful because of the various reproduction processes for screenings. Also some stock is terrible when compared to others in terms of quality. The cinematographer might have done the best possible 35mm shoot in his career but if the distributors cut corners by using lesser quality stock it shows in the final produce and the cinematographer will only see a good reproduction of his work at the films Premiere (This is usually a print done directly from the best copy) or on the DVD release. This is one area where digital film can actually boost the cinematographers work. If things go fully digital then there is no reason why all projectionists should not be able to throw the exact same image if the digital projectors adhere to the same standards. I have worked with dozens of projectors of different types and the difference in quality from each is astounding at times. In fact it can be quite frightening when you understand that EVERYTHING - A $50,000,000.00 production is in the projectionists hands and if the quality of the print is crap then it really does not do 35mm justice at all. If the projectors are not well maintained then certainly the image will suffer.

 

I am not sure about the cues on the reels. I have heard them done at several different stages in the prints production. I am not sure if there is any one standard there. Notice they also look different sometimes.

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IBL wrote:

In fact it can be quite frightening when you understand that EVERYTHING - A $50,000,000.00 production is in the projectionists hands and if the quality of the print is crap then it really does not do 35mm justice at all. If the projectors are not well maintained then certainly the image will suffer.

 

Unfortuately, I've had some really bad experiences with Digital Cinema presentations as well. One screening of "Ice Age" was cancelled when the theatre's server kept hanging up, posterizing the image and having the image "freeze" up and go black. A digital screening of Tim Burton's "Planet of the Apes" in August 2001 had truly "ugly" looking tone scale, with highlights that clipped and murky shadows. Another digital screening at a theatre owners trade show looked like it was projected through a dirty lens, with lots of obvious flare.

 

Digital Cinema will not look good in theatres that don't care about presentation quality, or cut corners on maintenance and good operators. :(

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