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Is 16mm Obsolete?


Robert Hughes

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Chip sensitivity and 500ASA film are pretty close I guess. But with the chip I expose for the highlights. Take a city night shot: I want to keep the lights. With film, I´d have to open about 2-3 stops to somehow save the shadows. Plus, the Arri has a fixed shutter, I do HD night (moving cars) with open shutter for a bit of motion blur/smear. Makes 3-4 stops.

 

The technology you speak of has actually been around since the late 1980's. Panasonic/Quasar made a one-chip prosumer video camera with this very feature that you are talking about. Yes, it does create more sensitivity by slowing the shutter down to like 1/15th or 1/4th of a second, but I don't believe that that type of shooting is considered normal, it's a specialty type shot.

 

I suppose you could claim that if one underexposes Hi-Def by one stop and overexposes negative by one stop, that could create a bit of an advantage for the HD. but keep in mind that the TV show LOST uses film specifically because they are shooting outdoors, in essence, in national geographic type of scenes.

 

Yes they shoot 35mm, but I doubt they would flinch at shooting Super-16 if they had to.

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The company I work for makes shows for The History Channel, Discovery, National Geographic, etc. I won't speak for all the production companies in the doc/reality realm, but I'm fairly certain the reason most shows originate on HD instead of S16 is because it is cheaper and quicker. Pretty simple.

 

16mm is not obsolete it is just relegated to higher budget projects, which is mostly not what these channels make.

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The company I work for makes shows for The History Channel, Discovery, National Geographic, etc. I won't speak for all the production companies in the doc/reality realm, but I'm fairly certain the reason most shows originate on HD instead of S16 is because it is cheaper and quicker. Pretty simple.

 

16mm is not obsolete it is just relegated to higher budget projects, which is mostly not what these channels make.

 

That's just being cheap, period. When one considers how many times these shows will run, and rerun, and overun, easily they will all air OVER A HUNDRED TIMES over the course of a decade, the cost of the film is actually neglible.

 

There may be a logic in using HD for the current material to contrast the archive film footage which usually represents the only footage of an earlier era. Interviews may make sense on HD just because they can let the person being interviewed go on an on and not sweat it.

 

It would be interesting if they designated one night as their "film night" and only show film originated programming and then track that night to see if there is any difference in ratings. I'm not saying there would be, but if there is even a tiny uptick, spread over the hundred reruns, that becomes much more significant than the initial cost differential.

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That's just being cheap, period. When one considers how many times these shows will run, and rerun, and overun, easily they will all air OVER A HUNDRED TIMES over the course of a decade, the cost of the film is actually neglible.

 

There may be a logic in using HD for the current material to contrast the archive film footage which usually represents the only footage of an earlier era. Interviews may make sense on HD just because they can let the person being interviewed go on an on and not sweat it.

 

It would be interesting if they designated one night as their "film night" and only show film originated programming and then track that night to see if there is any difference in ratings. I'm not saying there would be, but if there is even a tiny uptick, spread over the hundred reruns, that becomes much more significant than the initial cost differential.

 

 

film night on discovery HD would be awesomness

Edited by adam berk
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The company I work for makes shows for The History Channel, Discovery, National Geographic, etc. I won't speak for all the production companies in the doc/reality realm, but I'm fairly certain the reason most shows originate on HD instead of S16 is because it is cheaper and quicker. Pretty simple.

 

16mm is not obsolete it is just relegated to higher budget projects, which is mostly not what these channels make.

 

No, in my case it´s definitely not a money thing. The money they save with not shooting film they put into hiring expensive HD gear. I get a better day loan if I bring my HD than my S-16 gear.

 

I encountered a lot of indifference or even resentment regarding S-16. Producers are interested in marketability and money, not in film asthetics. HD is the sound of money.

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The technology you speak of has actually been around since the late 1980's. Panasonic/Quasar made a one-chip prosumer video camera with this very feature that you are talking about. Yes, it does create more sensitivity by slowing the shutter down to like 1/15th or 1/4th of a second, but I don't believe that that type of shooting is considered normal, it's a specialty type shot.

 

I suppose you could claim that if one underexposes Hi-Def by one stop and overexposes negative by one stop, that could create a bit of an advantage for the HD. but keep in mind that the TV show LOST uses film specifically because they are shooting outdoors, in essence, in national geographic type of scenes.

 

Yes they shoot 35mm, but I doubt they would flinch at shooting Super-16 if they had to.

 

No, I mean open shutter with 25p, that makes 1/25th exposure. Like Michael Mann does in his new movies...

 

Underexpose one stop for HD? You can look much much deeper into the shadows. Try it when you have the opportunity. Film I overexpose 1/2 stop generally on zone 5. - Take a situation with 6 stops contrast, say F2-F11. This can be handled with film and HD. If I want it all on film, I go for F 4/5.6 because 2 stops too dense highlights are still ok in post without much trickery. With HD, I go for F11. Makes at least 2 stops difference. Plus one for the open shutter my arri doesn´t have.

 

Thanks for taking the trouble to post this, Adam !

 

I recall ~ 10 years ago CBS was saying the same things about S16 & HD, well they weren't getting into the compression issue - but claimed it was inherently too unsteady (& too 'dirty' - PTR's -- Hello ??).

 

Which I *think* has been disproven :) (I'm doing comps with footage shot on a 40 year old Arri S !! & you can not see vertical registration error or weave with this from a Spirit > D5HD transfer NB film dailies projected same thing...)

 

Maybe I'll try & torture this in some MPEG 4 codec (I DO have better things to do with my time though :D

 

-Sam

 

S-16 in all respect - steadiness is a real problem with Arri SRs, even if you have every part of the many variables serviced regularly. I never could really get to Arri specification with my SR2. 2C was absolutely steady. Arri S was much simpler construction with no quick exchange mags, complicated pressure plates etc., but is really not the standard for shooting any more.

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I was unaware that the spirit was considered a noisy machine. Everything I've heard about the spirit w/s16 has been good, as in much less noise than tube based telecines like the c-reality.

Is the arriscan used much for TVC/music videos? I was sort of under the impression that the arriscan is mostly a feature film driven device.

 

Do you know of any USA facilities, other than EFILM that use Arriscan?

 

 

Hi,

 

I don't think a Spitit is generally considered noisy, however I hate the look of noise reduction. I always want it turned OFF, ideally or on a very low setting. Then it's clear what is noise and what is grain, the colorist will usually try to turn it back on when I am not looking!

 

Scanning is currently quite expensive, but I think the rates are falling fast. On a job where you can do a one light pass and a final 'Telecine' I try to a scan of the selected takes. The difference is huge IMHO.

 

Stephen

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S-16 in all respect - steadiness is a real problem with Arri SRs, even if you have every part of the many variables serviced regularly. I never could really get to Arri specification with my SR2. 2C was absolutely steady. Arri S was much simpler construction with no quick exchange mags, complicated pressure plates etc., but is really not the standard for shooting any more.

 

Aaton. (or later modified SR's or SR3 Advanced i.e. copying Aaton....)

 

(the "S" was just an example).

 

-Sam

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S-16 in all respect - steadiness is a real problem with Arri SRs, even if you have every part of the many variables serviced regularly.

 

Hey,

 

My high speed SR became very steady after I had new rails put on it. I had bought the camera used and had one filmmaker that liked to do all his post work on video and he like dissolves within the same shot to compress time, or do a lighting change. I was never able to see any registration issues on these shots and was happy with the results. Although we had never done any of those shots for something projected. I would have highly recommended a better pin registered camera for projection.

 

Best

 

Tim

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...is 16mm obsolete? As I was browsing the forum index, I just noticed the "16mm" forum is the most used forum at Cinematography.com - second only to "general discussion"..... The statistic seems to speak for itself.

 

Steve

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The BBC is a typical dinosaur - a plodding monopolistic leviathan which continually needs to prove thats its at the cutting edge of culture and technology, usually with embarassing results.

 

Most people who work for the BBC don't seem to have an aesthetic bone in their body. The technicians are more like digital pen pushers than artists and BBC shows attempting to emulate look of US programs like 24 never seem to succeed on any level.

 

And scrap the licence fee too.

 

At least people in the US and other countries get to watch the best of the BBC free, in the UK we are compulsorarily taxed for it.

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Just look at how many sitcoms use 16mm now days, when almost all where on video during the 70's and 80's.

 

The only sitcoms I know of on 16mm are Scrubs and 30 Rock (at least I think 30 Rock is 16mm). As a matter of fact, the only sitcoms on film at all are Scrubs, The King of Queens, Two and a Half Men, My Name is Earl, and 30 Rock. Every other sitcom I can think of is shot on 24p HD video.

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Guest Brett Waszkelewicz

30 Rock is 3-perf 35mm - which I only know 'cause they were TKing it at the post house when I was there with my 16mm student film. Also, add Veronica Mars to the above list, I think.

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30 Rock is 3-perf 35mm - which I only know 'cause they were TKing it at the post house when I was there with my 16mm student film. Also, add Veronica Mars to the above list, I think.

 

Veronica Mars is not a sitcom, at least I don't think of it as one. But even in dramas, the only current dramas I can think of that are 16mm are the already mentioned Veronica Mars, One Tree Hill, Gilmore Girls, and The OC, at least among network programs. The rest are all on either 35mm (almost exclusively 3 perf) or HD video (Close to Home, What About Brian, Justice (cancelled), Jericho, the MyNet soaps, and maybe one or two that I'm missing).

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But even in dramas, the only current dramas I can think of that are 16mm are the already mentioned Veronica Mars, One Tree Hill, Gilmore Girls, and The OC, at least among network programs.

 

I knew I'd forget one. Friday Night Lights is also on 16mm.

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The only sitcoms I know of on 16mm are Scrubs and 30 Rock (at least I think 30 Rock is 16mm). As a matter of fact, the only sitcoms on film at all are Scrubs, The King of Queens, Two and a Half Men, My Name is Earl, and 30 Rock. Every other sitcom I can think of is shot on 24p HD video.

 

Everyone of the shows mentioned above I would consider a quality show and most of those shows have been top 20 shows if I'm not mistaken. If Kodak wants to keep in step with HD acquisition, they should do a survey as to how well filmed shows do in the ratings.

 

Many of the HD shows "leading the charge" are the bottom feeders when it comes to ratings. Yes there are top shows shooting HD, such as the Office. Ironically I think that show lools like it is shot on film.

 

The company I work for makes shows for The History Channel, Discovery, National Geographic, etc. I won't speak for all the production companies in the doc/reality realm, but I'm fairly certain the reason most shows originate on HD instead of S16 is because it is cheaper and quicker. Pretty simple.

 

16mm is not obsolete it is just relegated to higher budget projects, which is mostly not what these channels make.

 

I'm kind of thinking the future of 16mm would be the opposite way. People who can sling a Canon

Scoopic over their shoulder or a Bolex Rex and actually complete their project may have the best potential of cost to quality, assuming they aren't pointing it at poorly lit scenes or getting poor sound.

 

It seems to me as the budgets increase that at the very least one would shoot Super-16.

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I believe that as far as 16mm beign obsolete, I think that is not really true, Yes Technology is going forward with HD, but that dosen't mean that film developers like Kodak or Fuji are falling behind, also pioneer companies like Aaton they are delivering new technology that is allowing new forms of film capture, for example the Aminima is a great for all the people that want the feeling of a camcorder in your hand shooting film, now you can do it.... anyway the main point is that technologies keep coming strong, from both ways, Hd is fast and easy but you have to realize that film is also ....

I feel that people argue about this nonstop.... trying to make so much sense but the level of their preojects don't change and I feel that that what should matter the most

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  • 2 years later...
The morning began with an introduction from Alan Yentob, Creative Director of the BBC. He began by saying he didn?t know too much about the subject of High Definition. This might explain why he struggled somewhat to repeat accurately the information he had been given by the ?white coats? at the BBC?s research facility, Kingswood Warren.

The bombshell was dropped early though, and this at least was clear. Here it is:

?Drama on film has got to stop?

 

Well he may not know so much about all this film and video malarky but thankfully he knows all about putting on a good spread:

 

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/21/20090717/tuk-e...00-6323e80.html

 

A very merry-tocracy to you all! ;)

 

love

 

Freya

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Well he may not know so much about all this film and video malarky but thankfully he knows all about putting on a good spread:

 

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/21/20090717/tuk-e...00-6323e80.html

 

A very merry-tocracy to you all! ;)

 

love

 

Freya

 

 

Evidently the British Gov. (and probably every other Corporation and Gov) knows a fair bit about bribery....

 

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/blackmoney/

 

I wouldn't think the nhk/sony/panasonic whatever pact would be much different...

 

-Rob-

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Were the distributors less silly had we 16-mm polyester prints in the cinemas. The exhibitors in their turn break a fly on the wheel by using 35-mm equipment opposite twelve foot high screens. That's the realm of small gauge.

 

Let there be reduction printing !

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Am I correct that Ken Burns' "National Parks: America's Best Idea" was shot completely in super-16? I've found a few stills from the project showing an aaton XTR.

 

This show comes out this September (2009). I'm sure it's been in the works for a few years, but what does that say that Ken Burns is still shooting (documentary!) s16? If they were starting this project today and not a few years ago, would they still choose s16? I will be interested to see if his next few projects stick with film. I can't wait to see this one.

 

There seems to be a 24 minute preview here (though I won't have time to watch until tonight):

 

http://www.pbs.org/nationalparks/

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You are correct, I have seen the promo DVD (family member works for a PBS affiliate) and there are several sequences with Burns and his crew in action using an Aaton XTR series S16 camera.

 

 

Am I correct that Ken Burns' "National Parks: America's Best Idea" was shot completely in super-16? I've found a few stills from the project showing an aaton XTR.

 

This show comes out this September (2009). I'm sure it's been in the works for a few years, but what does that say that Ken Burns is still shooting (documentary!) s16? If they were starting this project today and not a few years ago, would they still choose s16? I will be interested to see if his next few projects stick with film. I can't wait to see this one.

 

There seems to be a 24 minute preview here (though I won't have time to watch until tonight):

 

http://www.pbs.org/nationalparks/

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