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RED production schedule


Carl Brighton

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RED footage is NOT film. The post of RED vs. film was really intended to be a comparison of the two, not one is better than the other (although the headline admittedly implies controversy). They are different.

 

What I heard from just about everyone at the NAB screening was that our footage looked very "filmic". We heard that it doesn not look exactly like film, but it does not look like video either. It has a "feel" to it that is lacking from most other digital video systems. We have gone to great length to achieve this "feel". Our footage does not have grain, for better or worse. It also does not have the dynamic range of film (although we are working on that). Our workflow is designed to be much easier than working with film. REDCINE got rave reviews from the most hardened critics. And the fact that Apple is supporting REDCODE RAW in FCP6 makes for two compelling workflow possibilities.

 

We entered this market to provide a film alternative... not a replacement for film. Most cinematographers that are already dabbling in digital seemed happy that they have a better alternative to existing cameras. And we have won over several to consider RED as a real alternative to film. That is all we ever hoped for.

 

There is one movie in production that will use both. There are several big budget films planned to be shot with a RED camera later this year. But there are still 100's that will be shot on film.

 

We are still in development. We will continue to be for many years. Each new sensor rev. will increase dynamic range and every update will make our camera more useful.

 

Jim

 

Any new product that pushes the envelope is great! It just makes all the other camera vendors work harder to keep up. It is a WIN situation for cinematographers. If you are not 100% sold on it, you can always rent it and form your own opinion.

 

No one is going to go out of business by not having one of the first Red cameras. Personally, I would not buy one of the first generation cameras, recorders, etc.

 

All the hype of the Red camera reminds me of the dot-com bubble hype in 2000 and the Holland tulip hype in 1637.

 

You still need the writing, directing, acting, art direction, lighting, etc. to make a good film/video. The Red is just a small piece of the finished product.

:rolleyes:

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Shooting 35mm as opposed to the red is more expensive but not that much for example a 35mm camera second hand can be bought at a fraction of the cost of a red so the only real expense is the film. A master like steven spielberg can edit his film on a moviola. Im not suggesting anyone do that especially when film can be edited using an edit decision list, but good deals can be had with the labs. Good enough to make filming with the red and real film equal except in quality where film excels.

 

The real appeal with the red is you can view your footage as it comes in. You can set up the studio to the image etc. In truth it is leveling the playing field for those who either can't be bothered or don't have the technical skills neccesary. Really though all you need to learn these skills is a cheap camera something like a GL2 would do.

 

I have been looking at some of the films made by cameras like the JVC 200 Series etc these cameras can produce beautiful pictures through tweaking and post that are a look in their own right. But their just not filmlike and the quality wouldn't get past basic standards set by many TV companies. The amatuer productions lOOK beautiful until someone starts acting or a myriad of other weaknesses. If all this was right its only a small part of the whole even the film score can be 60% of the final product.

 

The truth is there is a huge market for filmakers who really want to make films and believe resolutely in themselves they are the ones that can break through because after all were all armchair critics and see weaknesses we know we could do better. But of all the many things that can go wrong with film if just one thing is out of step by just a little the whole film looks amatuerish. Getting the film quality right is still a long way from a film. Its why often when people make criticisms of others work there is a harshness and nastiness or too far the other way and a film with clear weaknesses praised highly. We owe it to each other to help make better film makers of ourselves by being open constructive and truthful from our own point of view.

 

The red camera will be for many a gamble on the biggest part of the movie making process being the camera and the expense of film. And that everything else can somehow be achieved. I.E. Lighting, FX, Acting, Sound,

 

If you have a camera that gives the same quality of film you have a really good chance to create something for your local community or prove to investors you could make a real film etc. Who knows you could even make the next indie film that makes it mainstream but as for film industry standards you can't. The doors are usually closed through distribution anyway. Thats why top actors get paid top money? What they do looks so easy and it is but its an illusion acting is the art of being yourself in an artificial way and its not easy to do convincingly. how much money goes into all the other professional equipment set design set builders etc. and even just a small skimp on standards budget abilty shows through like a single duff note in a song to ruin the lot.

 

The red camera is a tool that really does everything all the other cameras can do but to no advantage where you might save money or make better pictures.

 

I.E.

In a film production the red can't compete with film

In a HD production its not much cheaper and doesn't have the bells and whistles of others.

In a HDV Production Its way overpriced

 

So what market does the red really clean up in? Those who want to make films on a budget? well hardly when you factor in all the other costs and workflow? Film can compete and be of a higher standard.

 

Those who want a do it all camera like a studio? I think a red camera will be owned by many as a secondary do it all camera that will get a fair amount of use. But it will not replace much.

 

As a consumer camera? It will be competing against the likes of sonys new XDCAM EX which will be a LOWER cost so it wont compete there either.

 

The Camera is a great product and its a jack of all trades and It will have its uses. Maybe even become a firmly establised favourite but it has a lot of work to do in promotion and competition they need to get some cheaper variations out too.

 

If the red had truly become a replacement for film then everything would have changed.. Everything

 

Personally I couldn't see how it was possible I was shocked when it was said they had because its like saying water can be turned into wine. Film is a physical chemical process. Video is a similar process using electronics. Film is like looking in a mirror at reflected light. Video is a mathmaticly calculated reconstruction that has been organised into set shapes.

 

but as it stands the red is high end video that isn't that competitive at least from all the available evidence. Im sure we will get some very filmic looking specially prepared footage now that will wow everyone and it will have to be tested in real life situations.

 

Film is still the best tool for making Film.

Edited by Mark Williams
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Mark... I guess I don't understand why so many high profile cinematographer's have RED cameras on order.

 

Jim

You know Jim your right many are saying that digital will replace film even our BBC over here don't use 16mm cameras anymore. And I really would be the first to admit if this were true but it just plain isn't and although your camera may come the closest perhaps. Its still not going to compete with film from the publics point of view. At least not on what I have seen so far. Many seem so wrapped up in the future they're neglecting whats in front of them.

 

The truth is if I was going to make a feature film today I would use a 35mm camera.

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Its still not going to compete with film from the publics point of view. At least not on what I have seen so far.

The truth is if I was going to make a feature film today I would use a 35mm camera.

 

I guess the key phrase is "at least not on what I have seen so far". You certainly can shoot your feature on film. Still doesn't explain why so many high profile cinematigraphers ($100M-$1.8B box office) have orders for RED.

 

This is a great life... you can continue to shoot film and I can continue to make this camera. Both of us will be just fine.

 

My best,

 

Jim

Edited by Jim Jannard
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Still doesn't explain why so many high profile cinematigraphers ($100M-$1.8B box office) have orders for RED.

 

My best,

 

Jim

 

Hi Jim,

 

Which high profile cinematographers shooting ($100M + box office) have personally ordered a Red.

 

Stephen

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I guess the key phrase is "at least not on what I have seen so far". You certainly can shoot your feature on film. Still doesn't explain why so many high profile cinematigraphers ($100M-$1.8B box office) have orders for RED.

 

This is a great life... you can continue to shoot film and I can continue to make this camera. Both of us will be just fine.

 

My best,

 

Jim

 

Well knowing alot of those high profile DP's and knowing what they make a week and what they get on rentals of their own equipment, purchasing a RED is the cost of a 5 day work week, a no brainer and no risk whether it lives up to their expectations or not. I mean have all those dps seen footage from the cam or are they buying on faith which for them is a drop in the bucket finacially and a financial boon for them if it does? Maybe its an inconsequential gamble for them.

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I guess the key phrase is "at least not on what I have seen so far". You certainly can shoot your feature on film. Still doesn't explain why so many high profile cinematigraphers ($100M-$1.8B box office) have orders for RED.

 

This is a great life... you can continue to shoot film and I can continue to make this camera. Both of us will be just fine.

 

My best,

 

Jim

 

Congratulations Jim! I wish you every success with it and I hope you continue to do as well. :)

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The RED camera is being used on a big budget project in Prague right now (Wanted)... with consequences I guess.

 

As for the names, we don't have permission to say other than Peter Jackson. But I think that will change in the next month.

 

A month ago, if I said we had a high profile director shooting our NAB footage... my bet is that there would have been skeptics if we didn't give out his name.

 

Jim

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The RED camera is being used on a big budget project in Prague right now (Wanted)... with consequences I guess.

 

As for the names, we don't have permission to say other than Peter Jackson. But I think that will change in the next month.

 

A month ago, if I said we had a high profile director shooting our NAB footage... my bet is that there would have been skeptics if we didn't give out his name.

 

Jim

 

No ones asking for names just want to know have all those dp's seen footage from the cam and then put their order in or did they jump in on faith like so many others?

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A month ago, if I said we had a high profile director shooting our NAB footage... my bet is that there would have been skeptics if we didn't give out his name.

 

Jim

 

Hi Jim,

 

I only asked because the no. of films taking 100M + at the Box Office is fairly small. Therefore the no. of cinematographers shooting those films who have personally ordered a Red camera is under 1% of reservations & orders to date. Please correct me if I am wrong in my assumptions.

 

Stephen

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Hi Jim,

 

I only asked because the no. of films taking 100M + at the Box Office is fairly small. Therefore the no. of cinematographers shooting those films who have personally ordered a Red camera is under 1% of reservations & orders to date. Please correct me if I am wrong in my assumptions.

 

Stephen

 

Stephen... not sure what you really are getting at here. There are lots of $100M+ movies over the years... but yes, under 1% of the people, but over 1% of the units. Some of the movies coming up where RED is planned to be used are over $100M budget, not box office.

 

Some orders were placed prior to seeing the footage, some after. Some that had orders before seeing the footage ordered more cameras after seeing the footage. I think it is safe to say that the Peter Jackson footage had a tremendous impact on many high profile cinematographers and dp's. One director with more than one $100M box office hit upped his order to 16 cameras after seeing the PJ footage.

 

Jim

Edited by Jim Jannard
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Stephen... not sure what you really are getting at here. There are lots of $100M+ movies over the years... but yes, under 1% of the people, but over 1% of the units. Some of the movies coming up where RED is planned to be used are over $100M budget, not box office.

 

Some orders were placed prior to seeing the footage, some after. Some that had orders before seeing the footage ordered more cameras after seeing the footage. I think it is safe to say that the Peter Jackson footage had a tremendous impact on many high profile cinematographers and dp's. One director with more than one $100M box office hit upped his order to 16 cameras after seeing the PJ footage.

 

Jim

 

 

That is encouraging news. I look forward to seeing footage. Thanks for your openness.

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Seriously I just hope they film indiana jones 4 with a real film camera or I will be upset.

 

He He, very likely, Spielberg is leading the charge against digital. He has said so many times.

 

Although Lucas is leading the charge the other way.

 

But since Spielberg is the director I'm sure he'll win out.

 

R,

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Hi Jim,

 

I was trying to quantify what you meant by "so many high profile cinematographer's"

 

Stephen

 

Hi Stephen. I am not sure if you want to go the money-route 101...

 

however (i am mid 30) i do own $.$$$.$$$. camera & lenses.

financed only by the biz they did.

I have placed 2 orders for the red cameras.

i wish i would have more.

ludwig in munich has extended its order to 10 red one cameras, it seems.

 

if you want to go the artistic route, i would like to add that i rather do longform. sometimes even as producer.

you seem to prefer shortform & commercials, don´t you?

 

so, lets go to the "high profile cinematographers"-topic which you raised.

as an individual mid 30 guy, i am not certain how i should classify myself.

maybe the recents new york film festivals (only silver btw, to narrow down the search) or the documenta 1992 might be helpful.

if you insist to help out, my -rather artistic- insight into filmmaking is certainly not able to fullfill your (and all of the 8posters remaining here) requirements necessary allowance to shoot...

---

--- highly succesful

--- well shot

--- interesting movies.

 

so, let me apologize to have been any disturbance in the realm of your....

"high end" whatever.

 

btw. if you really need (or want) to learn how to operate a red camera in 2007, as a dp, i might be a fruitul ressource.

if this is a emotional discussion only, then please spare me.

if you prefer to use inferior proven products (as we do), then shoot on on the viper.

 

 

but don´t complain or get to emotional on the red hoax. ok?

btw - if you need a cheaper thomson viper or sony hdcam, combined with zeiss primes or angenieux lenses, my small shop in berlin might be a ressource for your shooting. but lets assume that price/performace or imagequality isn´t your paramount.

 

so it seems that we are certainly not the right, how did you type, "high-profile" shop for your needs.

we only focus on film & image quality.

i didn´t had the impression, that image quality is the main interest for some of the few remaining posters on the digital side of the board.

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Every RED thread in this entire forum eventually winds down into becoming a huge BODDINGTON. It's kinda like when men and women get to talking . . . the conversation always seems to boil down to sex. I wouldn't mind at all if Stephen and Tim decided to just shut the whole goddamned thing down.

Edited by Ralph Oshiro
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Hi Jim,

 

I was trying to quantify what you meant by "so many high profile cinematographer's"

 

Stephen

 

Well this time buddy Stephen W is egging it on :huh:

 

R,

 

PS: Haven't I seen you posting at Reduser.net Ralph? Some of those film v digital debates on there have gone over 20 pages as well.

 

One thread that is called "Film VS Red" is, at the time of this writing, on page 49!!!

 

Are we really that bad by comparison Ralph?

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Well this time buddy Stephen W is egging it on . . .

Yes, I see, Richard. We're all guilty of it here to some extent. But, I must say Richard, your posts become very positive towards RED since NAB. Kudos to you, and all the rest here who seemed to have lightened up a bit in recent weeks.

 

PS: Haven't I seen you posting at Reduser.net Ralph? Some of those film v digital debates on there have gone over 20 pages as well.

Yes, I hang out there quite a lot. Since many of the RED team members both post and moderate there, there's a lot of quality information to be gleaned from the site. The RED vs. film debates there are just as silly, just in the opposite direction as you point out.

 

Of course they are heavily slanted the other way and dissent isn't as well tolerated as it is here.

Yes, they are. But then again, what would you expect at a RED-oriented site? I do think more dissent should be both expressed and tolerated there, however. Dissenting, critical opinions (not mindless "film is better" rants, mind you) of RED can only make the product better, and its customers more savvy. I wish more members here would state some of their concerns there. David Mullen has recently been posting more there, and his posts are always a breath of fresh air.

Edited by Ralph Oshiro
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Are we really that bad by comparison Ralph?

Well, you've got to admit, Richard, that in the beginning, it was some pretty rough territory over here for us RED supporters. Once the unwarranted personal attacks stopped, and the accusations that all RED supporters are just a bunch of inexperienced, wide-eyed dilitantes subsided, it's gotten better. But it always seems to be a game of one-upsmanship here. It's very combative, and, for lack of a better phrase, it always seems to end up being a very big dick-measuring contest. I'm certainly guilty of some of it myself. But, I've gotten to know some you early skeptics, and yes, actually have gotten to like you. You, Carl, the others, I know that all of you are heavily invested in your respective crafts and that you all have strong opinions about it. But many of you were man enough to say, "Yup, it looks pretty good. They actually did it. I was wrong." Of course, most of you add the corrollary, "But film is still better," which is admittedly true in some respects, and certainly your perogative to say so.

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if you prefer to use inferior proven products (as we do), then shoot on on the viper.

 

Hi Jan,

 

If i want to shoot a job today digitally, I don't believe the Viper is an inferior product. I will be testing a Phantom HD this afternoon so I may change my mind.

 

I am looking forward to testing a Red One & Sony F23, when they hit the street.

 

Stephen

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