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RED production schedule


Carl Brighton

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The marketing has had counter productive effects, Recently I spoke to one London/French based production person who's usually quite up on things. He seemed to nearly regard RED as the Internet fantasy camera of a sunglasses billionaire that could to all things, including recording onto DVD. I had to explain that it was a serious project and give him the specs.

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We use our opinions and beliefs to justify cruel, or less than civil behavior. Some use being "right" to justfiy their lack of interest in one another's feelings.

 

My dissappointment lies in the moderators of this board, who feel that it's ok to have such talk, to be rude. Every point made in every post can be made in such a way as to make the target of the post feel good about themselves rather than hurt and angry. Good moderators can hold it's posters to a higher standard. I am sad to see they don't

 

Jay do you live in a world of fluffy bunny rabbits? I too have been critical of Red's approach to many aspects of their marketing and probed some of their claims. I am now becoming more interested in the product as it becomes closer to reality and it does seem that it has the potential to be a really useful tool. but as for 'moderators' inforcing 'civility' on this forum well fu** that. i live in london and speak my mind- you know who i am, my name is here and whether you like my language or not its a hell of a lot more honest than butt kissing under an idiotic pseudonym. this is a world wide forum, so lets not have debate squashed by individual or regional concepts of civility.

keith

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This forum is just not a lot of fun.. It spends more time complaining than helping.. And when some agrues for the right to be mean..

 

Clearly I am in the wrong place.

 

See ya all. I have projects to make and this place is not teaching me anything that useful, and what it does teach is hidden deep in posts of cruelity and negative comments.

 

 

Jay

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This forum is just not a lot of fun.. It spends more time complaining than helping.. And when some agrues for the right to be mean..

 

Clearly I am in the wrong place.

 

See ya all. I have projects to make and this place is not teaching me anything that useful, and what it does teach is hidden deep in posts of cruelity and negative comments.

Jay

 

Another satisfied customer, glad we could be of help :D

 

R,

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This forum is just not a lot of fun.. It spends more time complaining than helping.. And when some agrues for the right to be mean..

 

Clearly I am in the wrong place.

 

See ya all. I have projects to make and this place is not teaching me anything that useful, and what it does teach is hidden deep in posts of cruelity and negative comments.

Jay

 

Jay,

 

If you haven't been able to gain any useful information from these forums, then your focus is most likely being disrupted by your need to have the information served to you in euphemisms. My suggestion is that you focus more on the content and less on delivery.

 

Being a veteran of the still industry, yet new to the motion picture industry, I have scoured most of the available filmmaking sites for constructive and, more importantly, informative forums, and Cinematography.com is by far leagues above the rest. A greater percentage of its members actually make their livings in this industry, and they offer real-world advice. This is the type of information that people pay exorbitant tuitions to procure.

 

If you can't handle the candor found here, find another hobby or career path, because this one will eat you for lunch.

 

Cheers,

 

Ken

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Jay,

 

If you haven't been able to gain any useful information from these forums, then your focus is most likely being disrupted by your need to have the information served to you in euphemisms. My suggestion is that you focus more on the content and less on delivery.

 

Being a veteran of the still industry, yet new to the motion picture industry, I have scoured most of the available filmmaking sites for constructive and, more importantly, informative forums, and Cinematography.com is by far leagues above the rest. A greater percentage of its members actually make their livings in this industry, and they offer real-world advice. This is the type of information that people pay exorbitant tuitions to procure.

 

If you can't handle the candor found here, find another hobby or career path, because this one will eat you for lunch.

 

Cheers,

 

Ken

 

Amen.

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I have scoured most of the available filmmaking sites for constructive and, more importantly, informative forums, and Cinematography.com is by far leagues above the rest. A greater percentage of its members actually make their livings in this industry, and they offer real-world advice. This is the type of information that people pay exorbitant tuitions to procure.

 

Which is exactly why it's so frustrating that specifically in this forum, people spend so much more time attacking the project than discussing substantive issues, on which some of them could provide valuable input.

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Which is exactly why it's so frustrating that specifically in this forum, people spend so much more time attacking the project than discussing substantive issues, on which some of them could provide valuable input.

 

Here is the title of this forum: RED production schedule, How is it going?. The answer is pretty simple. Only the designers and manufacturer maybe know the answer, and they have spent most of their time here bombarding us with an in-your-face promotional circus.

 

Out of 310 posts, The few that suggested that none of this matters until the camera is available for real testing were all that were needed to wrap up this forum. Everything beyond that, including my spray, is superfluous. However, I will give the thread a C+ for its entertainment value.

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This place IS by far the most entertaing of the fora I'm on -;)

 

But I don't find much information in the threads I'm seeking.

 

It's the most generalizing place I'm on.

 

What I don't see is some peoples reasoning for making assumptions on others peoples behalf in regards of experience, income, working conditions, professionalism, integrity, independentness, honesty etc. That's sorta just offensive and not all that entertaining or informative and triggers only bad blood.

 

Of course it's good to disagree and be sceptical.

But those kind of remarks really does not keep the topics clean, and I hardly see them on any other boards I attend frequently

 

(The cow, dvinfo, dvxuser, reduser and a couple of Norwegian, cml.net)

 

But that's just me...

 

 

Gunleik

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Here is the title of this forum: RED production schedule, How is it going?. The answer is pretty simple. Only the designers and manufacturer maybe know the answer, and they have spent most of their time here bombarding us with an in-your-face promotional circus.

 

Talking to people about your camera in relevant forums is not an "in-your-face promotional circus". It's something that should, in fact, be encouraged.

 

It's sort of funny, because I'm also an Apple watcher. Apple similarly gets accused of hyping its products unreasonably. Except, people claim Apple hypes its products by maintaining an unreasonable level of secrecy until the day of release; IOW, by being too closed. Apparently Red hypes its products unreasonably by... being too open? I'm not sure I get it.

 

I think what's actually going on in both cases is that there are people who are legitimately excited... and the people who don't understand why, instead of accepting that those folks might just value different things, instead assume all the excitement must be invalidly generated by corporate hype.

 

Out of 310 posts, The few that suggested that none of this matters until the camera is available for real testing were all that were needed to wrap up this forum.

 

Here are a half dozen currently active threads on Reduser discussing substantive issues:

 

What Size Mattebox?

EVF or LCD?

720p WYSIWYG 4K?

Thoughts on a RAM buffer

RedCine Licenses?

NLE choices

 

In some of the threads asking questions, Red employes actually show up and answer. And nobody implies they're lying. And when they say they can't give out certain information yet, people actually understand that's often a valid answer for a product that's still in development.

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Here are a half dozen currently active threads on Reduser discussing substantive issues:

 

What Size Mattebox?

EVF or LCD?

720p WYSIWYG 4K?

Thoughts on a RAM buffer

RedCine Licenses?

NLE choices

 

Those all seem to be questions that would be better answered when the product is released not when no one participating in the forum is going to be able to give real hands on advice. Unless the discussion is between the engineers and Jim Jannard? When people ask for solid specs they don't mean speculation. Jay appears to have entered this forum, accuse everyone of acting like children and then been upset when people reacted. Of his four posts or so he didn't offer a piece of relevant information or insight, beyond his opinion of the attitudes of the members of this forum. What did he expect?

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Those all seem to be questions that would be better answered when the product is released not when no one participating in the forum is going to be able to give real hands on advice.

 

Enough is known that it's possible to have substantive discussions. For instance, the issues that determine whether one should use an EVF or LCD are well known by people who shoot regularly. Storing footage can be discussed, because Red has given us some information about data rates. Issues related to lenses, matteboxes, etc. are substantially similar between cameras. We know what resolutions the camera is expected to support, so it's perfectly possible to have a discussion about what editing or processing tools will work.

 

It's helpful to talk about all of these things before cameras start shipping so people can figure out what to buy, what to learn, how much money they'll need to spend, etc.

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It's helpful to talk about all of these things before cameras start shipping so people can figure out what to buy, what to learn, how much money they'll need to spend, etc.

 

That may be true...

 

Chris since you seem to know a lot when are the final specs suppose to be out...

 

!. This is the camera...

2. This is the post work flow.

3. This is how much not only is the camera going to cost... but this is also how much the work flow will cost so that you have a total price... is this NAB?

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[quote name='Chris Kenny' date='Mar 17 2007, 10:50 AM' post='161126'

 

It's helpful to talk about all of these things before cameras start shipping so people can figure out what to buy, what to learn, how much money they'll need to spend, etc.

 

How can these issues be discussed substantively when no one has any experience with the gear. It's exactly this type of speculation which leads people to buy gear they don't need and don't know how to use. How can anyone offer any insight into whether they should purchase the EVF or LCD when no one has seen or used these products. As far as work flow, has anyone outside the company taken this product through a full pathway? Im not trying to rag on anyone, I can understand excitement, but is there any reason to believe that there wont be similar issues to the ones faced by HVX users (I'm in a PAL territory) for the first 4 months?

I respectfully disagree that anything substantive can be discussed without a single hand or eye touching the equipment.

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That may be true...

 

Chris since you seem to know a lot when are the final specs suppose to be out...

 

!. This is the camera...

2. This is the post work flow.

3. This is how much not only is the camera going to cost... but this is also how much the work flow will cost so that you have a total price... is this NAB?

 

NAB is what Red folks have been saying over at Reduser.net. They also apparently expect to have the first of the production cameras assembled about a month from now -- basically right before NAB. So, I assume they plan to have working cameras there.

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NAB is what Red folks have been saying over at Reduser.net. They also apparently expect to have the first of the production cameras assembled about a month from now -- basically right before NAB. So, I assume they plan to have working cameras there.

 

So if you don't have all your answers then... will you still buy...

 

I would ask them what do I need for a basic package to get by with vs. the give me everything package.

 

I would ask them what would the final post workflow costs be...

 

Plus S. Whitehouse wrote basically the camera needs to be tested...

 

I'm not trying to be a pain... but it seems like so many have signed up for the camera and the best way to explain it is this way... would you buy a home with out a home inspectors report?

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NAB is what Red folks have been saying over at Reduser.net. They also apparently expect to have the first of the production cameras assembled about a month from now -- basically right before NAB. So, I assume they plan to have working cameras there.

Thank you for making my point, Chris. I couldn't have said it better, myself.

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So if you don't have all your answers then... will you still buy...

 

I would ask them what do I need for a basic package to get by with vs. the give me everything package.

 

I would ask them what would the final post workflow costs be...

 

Plus S. Whitehouse wrote basically the camera needs to be tested...

 

I don't need that much hand-holding. I have a tech background. If they tell me how their system stores and spits out footage (and they mostly have already), I can figure out what I'll need and what it'll cost me.

 

I'm not trying to be a pain... but it seems like so many have signed up for the camera and the best way to explain it is this way... would you buy a home with out a home inspectors report?

 

I've seen some of the footage from the early prototype, projected at 4K. I expect they'll release a lot more, and more varied stuff, at NAB. Buying into a new camera system is a risk, but it's a calculated one. And buying into an existing camera system with something like this coming along would be a risk as well.

 

Anyway, we've got reservation #404. People will probably be playing around with the cameras for 2-3 months before our turn comes up. Plus whatever shakedown the current prototypes are getting.

 

Thank you for making my point, Chris. I couldn't have said it better, myself.

 

What is your point? That because it's impossible to make absolute statements about the future, there's no point in discussing it?

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What is your point? That because it's impossible to make absolute statements about the future, there's no point in discussing it?

 

You were complaining about a lack of substance here, which is the result of discussing something without much real information to base a discussion on, hence the high signal to noise ratio. So you need to expect and accept that 90% of what you are going to read will be opinion and conjecture until the final camera is released.

 

Sure we can discuss trivial things like matteboxes, but what exactly is so unique about the RED camera that traditional film matteboxes can't be used? We could discuss post-production, but considering this is a cinematography forum, many of us won't be involved in the finer details of posting RED footage (and a lot of independent people won't want to -- or be able to -- deal with a 4K workflow.) This isn't quite the same group of people that are normally in a DV users group.

 

What most of us care about here, in a cinematography forum, before all other things, is simply what does the footage look like from the final camera, in all sorts of shooting conditions. And until the camera is out, we can't know that! Everything else -- matteboxes, filters, lenses, workflow, costs, etc. -- is secondary to that, and are often things where there is already marketplace support for and are known issues.

 

And once again, I've just contributed more useless noise to the subject...

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"Anyway, we've got reservation #404. People will probably be playing around with the cameras for 2-3 months before our turn comes up. Plus whatever shakedown the current prototypes are getting."

 

It'll be damned interesting to see how many of the reservation holders actually buy cameras, and how many decide to ask for the ir $1K back.

 

I can't help wondering if there isn't some sort of speculator element at work here, where a certain segment of the reservation holders have no real use for a camera, but are attracted to the notion that if the RED proves to be a runaway success, they can sell the rights to their early reservation for a profit.

 

That could explain at least some of the runaway up-sucking from on certain forums from people who obviously wouldn't know poop from shaving cream :P

 

If the RED works as well as advertised, that might not be such a silly notion, and all they'd be risking is the interest on $1,000.

 

Well as I said, I'm not interested in buying one, but I certainly know some people who are.

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Anyway, we've got reservation #404. People will probably be playing around with the cameras for 2-3 months before our turn comes up. Plus whatever shakedown the current prototypes are getting.

 

So you will get to benefit from the experiences of Red users who are out in the field and possibly out in the cold. Is it possible that you will change your work flow and or purchases based on these experiences rather than the speculation on an internet forum, for a product which hasn't seen the light of day and wont until RED #1 rolls of the production line and has been used to shoot a production which goes through a full post production pathway?

The HVX was discussed and examples given in a similar way and this did nothing to help the vanguard of productions who found themselves up poop creek.

Im surprised that someone who describes themselves as a "tech" guy would be so brash as to claim that you will be able to work with and cost out anything they feed you. Maybe another "tech" guy can help me out here and help point out some of the holes in the workflow (which doesn't actually exist yet).

I think that endlessly answering peoples doubts about this product on this forum (which is full of real world skeptics, cynicism built from real world experiences overtime) with speculation is rash. This might be misconstrued as fact by casual readers or first time posters when very few real facts are known. The price was unknown until recently (and was admittedly surprisingly cheap) and yet I can remember very firm arguments from posters about what the package would include for their $17,500.

I agree with some of your points Chris, I think that the RED will be used for low budget work using gear which is less than ideal (like still lenses) because I went through similar struggles and trials by fire in the past on low budget shoots with gear like the HVX and the P + S and in particular the A-Minima. In a certain frame of mind you do what ever it takes to get something made but don't shoot the messenger. Most of the points made in this forum are entirely legitimate, as a working camera asst (or jack of all trades) and DP I do not look forward to shooting with Nikons wide open on the types of projects I work on becuase it will be every bit as difficult as the experienced cameramen on this site have described. And having watched some of the fatal problems experienced by early HVX adopters I shudder at the tears which will be spilled despite all the talk from RED engineers a month before its release.

I face a production in a couple of months with Nikons on the front of a HVX with the Redrock adapter. I had to be very straight up with the director about the limitations of the system and had to push to get a HD split to judge focus. This was based on experience with the system in the past, something I would not care to repeat.

I guess Ive written such a long post because I feel so close to the market which this camera has been pitched at endlessly and friends and I have felt burnt in the past by similar speculation (which often turns to fact when standing in a rental house). I appreciate the questions and points made by the experienced members of this site and like them I hope that this camera is everything the hype would have me believe, but I have my doubts. And even after NAB 99% of my questions wont be answered except perhaps that the camera isn't vaporware and that it might not be as akward to work with as the pictures would have me believe.

Finally, perhaps someone can help answer this question, will the RED be able to shoot using the full sensor, aka 35mm depth of field, but down rez it to 720p or 1080p for storage and post reasons without using some sort of REDCODE propriety codec in 4:4:4? Similarly what is the maximum resolution I can expect to put down to the hard drive when using S16mm PL mount lenses ( I understand that it will not use the full sensor) and what codecs will I be able to work in camera with (in particular will I be able to work in DVCpro HD)? Can these questions be answered with out experimentation with a real unit? I dont know.

 

My 10 or 20 cents,

Sasha

Edited by S. Whitehouse
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