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RED annonces prices on accessories


Eirik Tyrihjel

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This means that with the $2500 credit for reservation holders, $17,700 now gets you the camera, LCD, charger, and one battery. Are you really going to complain about that extra $200? Realize that you're now getting a separate 5.6" LCD. The original design was for a smaller fold-out screen.

 

Hi Chris,

 

People will always complain. I don't understand this, if the price difference is only $200, why Red did just swallow that for the Reservation holders? This would cost Red under $300,000.

 

 

:D He would never sell 1,500 units over these forum pages.

 

 

You're wrong, big player!

 

Hi Patrizio,

 

I think he would but it make take 5 years!

 

Have you cancelled your 5 cameras?

 

Stephen

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Hi Chris,

 

People will always complain. I don't understand this, if the price difference is only $200, why Red did just swallow that for the Reservation holders? This would cost Red under $300,000.

 

Stephen

 

Hi Patrizio,

 

I think he would but it make take 5 years!

 

The Mitchell company delivered approx 1466 Hi Speed cameras in 34 yeras!

 

Stephen

 

You should be happy with their move, isn't it Stephen?

 

Some of us (film students, young movie makers) will still be in business but with 1/3" or even 2/3" chips... At least, the SI camera has composite out. B) Don't worry, the Red will have competitors soon. Really revolutionary. In fact, the new HDV already are a little bit. And lighter, definitely. It seems the Red camera has now 9 pounds.

 

A few of those RedYesUsers believed in the words of Jim Jannard when he declared publicly 15 pounds for the combo with the Zoom lens. Figure!

 

Don't forget that the content is still the king. And with those Yes Men, I just dunno, I dunno. :rolleyes: I know a lot of eventual Red customers (but skilled shooters) who won't be there anymore. But not for just $200...

 

Simply they don't post their feelings.

 

Some of the RedYesUsers are only teenagers, having their own Steven Spielberg dream. They don't buy.

 

I repeatedly stand: Jim Jannard wouldn't sell his camera if he published the accessories list first. Like it was supposed to be. Or it should be in any case. Then, you can bet Chris, it had not been so high. The production packs, for example. The industry owners and their pairs are grateful.

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I don't understand this bickering about the price of the accessories either. Did people really expect that they would get a fully working camera for 17.5K? It seems to me like some potential users had some unreasonable expectations, fueled perhaps by the Red marketing, about the cost of this whole enterprise. But then again anyone who put a bit of thought into this (or even bothered to read this forum) would have realized that the price is going to be higher than just that of the camera.

 

Unfortunately there are still people who seem to think that they don't need to invest much beyond the inital price to get a fully working camera setup. Obvioulsy they'll get the camera working, but what do they do when something breaks down, as things ineviteably do? Or when they're on a location without a power source and their 2 batteries run out? Wrap up and go home? In any camera package I'd expect some basic spares, especially cables, which have a tendecy to get lost, but also extra batteries, an extra charger, recording modules, etc... in order to be able to overcome technical problems and keep on shooting.

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You should be happy with their move, isn't it Stephen?

 

Hi Patrizio,

 

I don't have a reservation, so I am not directly effected by the price changes.

 

Why should I be happy with their move? I don't understand your point.

 

Stephen

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There'no balance between the body price and the accessories. That's the philosophy that counts.

 

You cannot target a market and change it when it seems you always knew what you want (the accessories list could be released at any time). Or test the business up to the limits.

 

You cannot sell wine for the price list of water and charge it as oil.

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I think anyone who has worked with professional cameras understand how they don't come with all the accessories. The RED is a pro camera. People coming from the world of the DV revolution would, perhaps be a little shocked. Wait two years, there will be some consumer options which will shock everyone.

 

Anyone who actually "drank the Kool-Aid" and put in an order should be very happy since they have now a 110% rebate offer to give up their reservation. Or, they can finish their sale and resell it pretty easily (perhaps making profit off that $2,500 discount).

 

I ordered the camera the first day it was available simply because most people said a camera like that could not exist at that price. I can't afford film for most of my projects and It hurts me to struggle with some of the limitations of the HVX200 and other cameras I use. Even if I hadn't reserved one, I'd be thrilled that there would be a rentalbe option like the RED. Even if I never rented one, I would be happy that someone is setting a all new price target for that level of quality.

 

Being a reserver though (who has avoided these forums for quite a while) I now look at things one month from NAB and think "Wow... they actually did it. Neat." Coming within $200 of a promised price even. That's pretty remarkable if you think about it.

 

I will tell you the things I really want to see though....

 

1. More footage - a wider range of environments and conditions.

2. The Warranty and Repair Policy.

3. My next project shot with this camera.

 

3 isn't likely to happen since it will be happening before NAB... ah... one more rental....

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There'no balance between the body price and the accessories. That's the philosophy that counts.

 

You cannot target a market and change it when it seems you always knew what you want (the accessories list could be released at any time). Or test the business up to the limits.

 

You cannot sell wine for the price list of water and charge it as oil.

 

 

Hi,

 

I always thought this was a 4K digital cinema camera, not a cheap camcorder!

 

I have mentioned in threads on rental that I expect the body will be included free with a package, on a film shoot a back up body often is!

 

With film cameras, lenses have always been the most expensive option, followed by the video assist!

 

Stephen

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I repeatedly stand: Jim Jannard wouldn't sell his camera if he published the accessories list first. Like it was supposed to be. Or it should be in any case. Then, you can bet Chris, it had not been so high. The production packs, for example. The industry owners and their pairs are grateful.

 

Do you really think these accessories are expensive? I've just bought an F900R and the Red prices look pretty good value if they turn out to be as well made.

 

I also happen to have a Red reservation but for me the jury is still out until I get my hands on a working version, if that ever happens!

Edited by Nick Bennett
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There's a different meaning between the pejorative cheap and affordable. $17,500 is not cheap but can be affordable. It would depend on the accessories policy. A really revolutionary policy? Or a Sony-like?

 

There has been lots of discussion on various forums over the past year that you wouldn't get a shooting camera package for $17.500. There has also been loads of feedback about the original drawings and questioning of the original form factor was the best for a camera of that size and wieght. RED seem to have taken much of this on board and also realised that the main market isn't the prosumer market. Although, some people will move up, however, that has always happened, even with film, going from 8mm to 16mm and then 35mm.

 

The unique selling point of RED is 4k 35mm, in other respects other upcoming cameras in the price range can shoot 2k. The other selling point is the system, an idea that Panavision developed for the Panaflex in the 1970s.

 

I think some people got excited because the camera module looked like a prosumer camera, which was something they were used to. In really, a shooting configuration RED is around the same size and weight as a broadcast SD camera (not including lenses). This was flagged up by various people over the last year.

 

There are a number of interesting new HD cameras coming out. However, the difficulties in actually making a film/programme remain, no one camera is going to change that and these new HD cameras just increase the number of options available for producers.

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Well, that explains it, doesn't it.

 

And so what? Do you have anything against to? Listen to me newcomer: where do you come from? Given this your first post, I'd say: directly from RedYesUser?

 

Perhaps I had already known a larger number of international film festivals with my shorts than your work at the Dvxfests till now.

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Do you really think these accessories are expensive? I've just bought an F900R and the Red prices look pretty good value if they turn out to be as well made.

 

I also happen to have a Red reservation but for me the jury is still out until I get my hands on a working version, if that ever happens!

 

It happens! 1500 payers x $25 000 (as average) = $37.500.000 (that's what counts)

 

For the 900 user, this accessories list will be acceptable. For who sells 1500 units (even before its manufacturing) from rendering images posted online and says I am not the electronics Ray Ban called Sony (this is a revolution), nope.

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Seems to me, you could have a really pimped out RED (minus glass) for between $30-$35k. That seems like a pretty fair price given it lived up to specs. Isn't this what we were expecting? I've heard people saying it for a long time. Compared to what is out there it is CHEAP!

 

It's interesting seeing some who were great champions of RED starting to turn. I wonder if this will be a continuing trend.

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I think to some extent Partizio has a point on what was first announced to what REd has now. Onboard 4k wasn't what got people excited at first but they gave it to you anyway by taking away some of things that made the camera appealing for some.

Yes specs have changed for the better but the assumption originally was for onboard battery and on board lcd included in the price and yes its now $200 more for those things but how do you mount the battery?

 

Surprise! the RED one production package at $1250. remember you've already spent your $2500 allowance on bat and lcd if you have a reservation.

 

Yes the battery is bigger but if it used smaller on cam batteries the form factor and weight would have been closer to what was originally promoted and cheaper batteries would be used. then you could have a bunch at $80 each for a day of shooting.

 

Arri SR, ENG vid cams, etc., click a mag on, click a battery on, slap a lens on, and slap on your shoulder.

 

No rails, no brackets, no handles if you don't want them. And many films and events have been shot this way.

 

Can't do that with red. You need at least some of the Red One basic production pack and I really beleive that had Jannard offered the mounting of the battery and a way to put it on your shoulder in the 17.5 k price he would not have any people questioning the price of accessories.

Edited by Michael Peploe
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I first heard about the camera I believe on dvinfo.net.... the thread was this title or close to it...

 

What would you want in an HD camera for around $10k...

 

People thought it was just another guy trying to build his own HD camera... then they found out it was Jannard the owner of Oakley Sunglasses... a guy with money so it might work...

 

In a nutshell the camera was marketed to the crowd who buys the proconsumer cameras where the batts, charger, etc. come with the camera. A way to get a buzz going... which it has...

 

Like someone posed a while back we already have more higher end cameras that you can hold and use and we're all talking about a camera that hasn't even hit the market yet... great marketing...

 

Then the price is released... no lens... when some people were upset... a Red Team member posted no don't worry batts, charger, etc. is included in that price...

 

Plus you can use still lens on the camera so the little guy wouldn't have to spend tons of money on glass untill he was making enough money to buy a better set of primes, etc...

 

The whole marketing was promoted as where helping the little guy complete against the big guys...

 

A repeat sorry guys and gals... but when I posted that I thought to get into the camera, with their zoom, a matte box, follow focus, rods, monitors, tripod, etc... and to upgrade my post equipment... I would have to spend $60k... I was told over and over again... no you can shoot with the camera using still lens for only $22k... and your post costs maybe $5k... why because the Red Team told them so... now the guy who does HDforindies.com posted that to really use the camera its more like $40k with no post costs thrown in...

 

So I believe that it was all marketing to get the word out about the camera which worked... but myself... I like people who are straight forward and say this is how much its going to cost... its going to be $40k... plus let's just say $20k for post costs (not talking about post house costs, just editing myself)..

 

Like I said before... for $60k (including editing)... you can shoot as good or better image than a Vaircam or Cine Alta... that's pretty darn good... plus having 35mm dof... that's even better... a camera that upgradeable... that's even better yet... but just tell me the truth about the costs up front... which I believe that they knew those costs from the begining...

 

 

 

Off subject... but Chad I see you're from Kentucky... how's the crew base there... I'm reading a script for a feature that someone wants me to direct back there...

 

I know in Missouri the only crew base is in St. Louis or KC who have done features or higher end productions...

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On accessories, I stand. The timing was perfect. They didn't need to have any data... They could publish their famous list last April when they did related to $17,500. And they did not. Why?... It's obvious.

 

Um... I rather doubt your premise here. You think they just make arbitrary prices up off the top of their heads? They need to talk to suppliers and manufacturing facilities. And they need to actually have the specs locked down first, which they didn't last April.

 

There'no balance between the body price and the accessories. That's the philosophy that counts.

 

I don't understand this. Is your objection that the camera costs 1/6 of what you'd expect the market price to be, so the EVF is outrageously priced because it costs 1/3 of what you'd expect the market price to be? This is fairly ludicrous.

 

Surprise! the RED one production package at $1250. remember you've already spent your $2500 allowance on bat and lcd if you have a reservation.

 

That's basically the Red Rail. (The more expensive production pack is the rail system + the cage.) I don't know what other people were assuming, but I had $1500 down in our budget for the rail system. So, Red actually came in under the price I had guessed.

 

And you don't strictly need the rail system. You can attach the battery and drive to the top of the camera and shoot like that; there are some pictures on Red's site.

 

A repeat sorry guys and gals... but when I posted that I thought to get into the camera, with their zoom, a matte box, follow focus, rods, monitors, tripod, etc... and to upgrade my post equipment... I would have to spend $60k... I was told over and over again... no you can shoot with the camera using still lens for only $22k... and your post costs maybe $5k... why because the Red Team told them so... now the guy who does HDforindies.com posted that to really use the camera its more like $40k with no post costs thrown in...

 

Reservation holders can get the camera + power pack + LCD + production pack + Nikon mount for $20K, add some F-mount primes, and still have a bit of money for a cheap follow focus and mattebox while coming in under $25K. We've extensively discussed the compromises involved with such a setup, but nothing in Red's pricing announcement makes it impossible, and I bet some people will do it.

 

And you should be able to handle everything in post with under $5K of equipment, particularly for a 1080p or 2K finish, but probably even for a 4K finish. Red's support for REDCODE in QuickTime allows the use of standard desktop tools for working with the footage. And there's no need for an expensive deck, etc. The only problem in low-cost workflows is likely to be the lack of a color-accurate monitor. But even that problem is likely to go away, as the desktop video editing world adopts the color management techniques of the desktop publishing world.

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Gary,

 

It's a small pond, but there are some talented, hard-working people here. Louisville and Lexington provide most of the crew. Grips, AC's and the like can be had but I'd bring along your over-the-line players.

 

Dreamer, Seabiscuit, Elizabethtown and some others have all come through in the last few years. Does your script involve horses? :P

 

http://www.kyfilmoffice.com/

 

Cheers!

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Thanks Chad... no horses... shooting in Cumberland... have to do some research or at least that's the name of the town in the script... only been through their once... Kentucky that is... not sure if I've been through Cumberland or not...

 

Chris, I'd be happy with 1080p... 24p... different frame rates, etc... 4k is something that is down the road...

 

Correct me if I'm wrong but hdforindies or Mike was posted that he wasn't sure now if Red Code... is going to be in the base price or not...

 

So that seems strange to pay for getting your footage out of the camera...

 

Chris why don't you post your idea for the $25k price... thanks....

Edited by Gary McClurg
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Listen to me newcomer: where do you come from?

 

Perhaps I had already known a larger number of international film festivals with my shorts than your work at the Dvxfests till now.

 

 

You're baiting me, but I'll bite.

 

I'm a commercial DP, working for over 18 years in the industry in Seattle, Los Angeles and now Nashville.

 

I am a partner in a large commercial studio facility with around 2.5 million in lighting, grip and camera.

 

In Los Angeles, I ran the country's largest Grip & Lighting rental house for 10 years or so, loading features like Titanic, Blow, Master & Commander: Far Side of the World, The Village and a few other films you may have heard of.

 

That's where I come from.

 

I don't usually post, I've lurked for a while, and forgive my early morning call out, but I'd just like to point out that this incessant whining is really completely unrealistic.

 

Those of us who shoot professionally are all waiting to see what really comes out. Yes, as a company, we're taking the risk free bet that the guys at Red have done something incredible, but we still haven't seen it work- haven't touched it... however, you don't really hear too many professionals complaining and whining, particularly about prices that sure seem better than the money we've spent with Sony for the last 20 years.

 

Pro's usually don't whine too much. That's all I was saying.

 

Cheers,

 

bw

www.griptruck.com

 

btw- what the hell is a DVXfest? is that like a sausage fest?

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Again Chris, since you curried favor with Jannard, judging from your posts on the marketing site, and your love of debating skills is getting you "in" with your posts here, FOR SOME people who got on board when it was first announced they never factored the price of rail system because they didn't need it and it wasn't necessary with respect to the form factor first announced. Maybe you got into this late and have no recollection of that.

FOR THEM, if they had a reservation its now $200 plus $1250( or less depending on ala carte accessory purchases) extra to get a working cam because the cam didn't need to be shoulder mounted disregarding all extras that they have added ,as they say at no extra cost, but which was never a desire for SOME.

IIRC now that at least 32 gigs of flash was included in the price. But now no free flash either.

I have a couple of hand held rigs that would have worked for the original specced cam but cannot be used the way the cam is now. Also you wold need to purchase a bracket at your extra cost if you top mount which would also make tha cam top heavy if you include the red raid and now do need the rails and shoulder mount.

The original marketing had certain people thinking a certain way and now its costing extra. Thats a fact not fantasy. And if he changed the form factor to give us more goodies he should have mentioned that extra cost factor sooner to those he definitely knew would be bothered by it. Because lets face it he did market to the a younger more prosumer market.

Judging from posts on the marketing site this forum aaaaand is posts are sem to still be an issue for Jannard and I hope his comments to you about why you are still posting here hasn't emblodened you to post here just for your amusement.

When the cam comes out I'm sure we'll have a more technical and thoughful discussion of the cam and maybe Jannard will find his way here again to answer some questions but the pre market hype machine he expects some of us refuse to lockstep to will always bother him and thats unfortunate for him.

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Correct me if I'm wrong but hdforindies or Mike was posted that he wasn't sure now if Red Code... is going to be in the base price or not...

 

The software definitely will be included with the camera. Jim Jannard has confirmed multiple times. What some people are wondering about is just how open the licensing will be. Will rental houses be able to give it to their customers, so their customers can process the footage themselves, for instance? That's not entirely clear yet.

 

Chris why don't you post your idea for the $25k price... thanks....

 

Well, not sure how much point there is in being too specific, since different people will want different things, but:

 

Camera body ($17500)

Power pack ($1450)

LCD ($1700)

Production pack ($1250)

Red Drive ($900)

Nikon mount ($500)

 

That's $23,300 - $2500 reservation bonus = $20,800.

 

As far as Nikon lenses go, there are a bunch of options, but you can get a couple of Nikon zooms or 3-4 primes for under $2700 combined.

 

RedRock Micro has a follow focus designed for photo lenses for $650, and is introducing a mattebox (presumably also designed for use with photo lenses) for $500 around NAB. There are other options as well, if those don't work out for some reason

 

So, let's say we're up to $24,650 at this point. Obviously this doesn't include a tripod, but this is a pretty lightweight setup, probably around 15 pounds, so you can get by with a fairly low-cost tripod. Many people in Red's market probably own something that would work.

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Is it really practical to focus for 2-4k image with 35mm depth of field for projection on an LCD?

 

I don't like to focus off the monitor even with 2/3" HD cameras going to standard def television.

 

Is an EVF not considered a "Must Have"?

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