Night Time Metering

[Aaron Tan]

Hello,

 

This is a two part question.

 

I'm wanting to shoot some scenes on Vision2 7218 500T at night in the city using only available light. I'm going for the "Lost in Translation" look when Bill Murray is in the taxi driving to the hotel. I've read some past posts regarding pushing the film one stop but I've never had experience with pushing stops.

 

1. What happens to the film when you push the film by one stop? Lets say for example I shoot something which is exactly one stop under. If I push one stop will the image be correctly exposed as if normally or will it be correct but with some loss of quality? Sorry but I'm not really familiar with pushing.

 

2. How about metering at night? How does one acheive that? Where and what do you meter?

 

Any help appreciated. Thanks.

[Greg Gross]

Vision 2,7218,500T 16mm motion picture film:

Reciprocity:

Shutter 1/1000 to 1/10 , no filter or exposure adjustment.

Shutter 1 sec.,increase exposure 2/3 stop,CC10R filter.

Shutter 10sec.,increase exposure by 1,CC10R filter.

 

CC=Color Compensating Filter

[J. Lamar King IMPOSTOR]

1.  What happens to the film when you push the film by one stop?  Lets say for example I shoot something which is exactly one stop under.  If I push one stop will the image be correctly exposed as if normally or will it be correct but with some loss of quality?  Sorry but I'm not really familiar with pushing.

 

2.  How about metering at night?  How does one acheive that?  Where and what do you meter? 

 

Any help appreciated.  Thanks.

1. Esentially correct, you would meter the film as if it were ASA 1000. An example would be if your metered stop was 1.something with the film rated normally @ 500 and you needed a stop of 2 or more. You would change your meter setting to 1000, which would (hopefully) give you 2.something. Then order the lab to push or force the film one stop to compensate. 7218 will handle a push very well and the usual artifacts are increased grain and changes in contrast. Whether these artifacts are considered a "loss" of quality is a subjective thing. I think 1 stop on a film such as 7218 would not generally be considered a loss in quality :unsure: , though you run the risk of mismatching if the scene is intercut, which it usually is.

 

2. Metering @ night is like metering at day. Just concentrate on your subject and make sure they are seen or not seen as the case may warrant. Points of light in the BG are going to register on the film with no problem. What you have to look at is where things that are lit in the BG fall in relation to the subject, there may be some overly bright buildings etc. If it is a driving scene I highly recommend holding your meter open on the subject as you do a run through. You could discover streetlights or signs etc. reflecting off the glass in a rythmic pattern which could be irritating/or not.

[Greg Gross]

One thing that I can safely say about night photography is that there

are no middle tones(lack of) considering now on the street(Broadway)

versus say in the country small community. This is exactly what causes

problem with accurate exposure. You'll have changing levels of light and

the films latitude(apply to accurate exposure). What you deal with a lot

of times are areas of shadow surrounded by highlights and completely

devoid of middle tones. This causes mis-calculation of exposure due that

you either base your exposure on the highlight area or the shadow area

alone. Now I'm speaking of ambient light(available light in your frame(not

a bunch of 10K's set around). Is the camera going to move or have a fixed

position? What depth of field do you want? What depth of field is possible

with ambient light. A spot meter is a very useful tool (you can read 1 de-

gree of your scene,maybe like looking through a straw)it works best where

there are no middle tones. However they are a little expensive and must be

used correctly! I use a Pentax spot meter from the Ansel Adams era and it

does very well for me. Does your 16mm camera have a built in light meter

if it does(say its TTL,through the lens metering,you would get average exp-

posure for scene. Beware though may not be reliable!! I am a professional

photographer just turning cinematographer and learnig on Panavision 35mm

equipment. Some really good cinematograghers on our Forum, Mr. Mullen ASC.

[Bob Hayes]

Aaron:

 

Don?t forget. Night is supposed to be dark. So just because you feel like you don?t have much light you may have a great image. The KODAK Vision2 7218 500T stocks have a lot of latitude and when in a dark environment I?m ok with under exposing a little and printing up rather then pushing it. Haskell Wexler shot much of "Silver City" on 7218 and then went through a DI to get to a 35mm print. If you are currious how 7218 looks in a 35mm print go see it.

 

Bob

[John Pytlak RIP]

At 24fps (1/48 second), a starting point exposure for an EI500 film on a downtown city street would be between f/2.8 and f/4 -- this will capture the color and texture of the lights, signs, automobile lights, and lit windows. More exposure will show more shadow detail, but may tend to desaturate the colored lights. In a night scene, you normally print/transfer to get a "rich" black, and light to show detail where you need it.

[Laurent Andrieux]

Also, the image is always nicer if you have contrast in it, that means with the street lights in the background. It becomes a bit crappy if you only have middle tones around a slightly underexposed caracter.

[Aaron Tan]

Thanks for all the info so far. Very helpful! Though I want to expand on it a bit more...

 

I'd like some help on two scenes which I have been trying to figure out how they metered and the lit for:

 

1. In Lost in Translation when Bill Murray is in the taxi driving by all the neon lights and street signs his face is underexposed and the outside lights and neons are correct. Do you think in this situation they correctly exposed for the street signs and left Bill's face alone? I really like the underexposed and bluish cast on his face... this is something I would like to acheive in my shots.

 

2. In The Bourne Supremacy when Bourne is chatting with his girl, Maria on the beach. They are underexposed and the light levels look believable. I mean the darkness looks believable. In this situation would the DOP have metered the correct exposure and then dropped it a few stops to acheive the darker more naturalistic look?

 

My goal is to shoot a night shot with a character. Though I want to expose the character correctly I don't want them to be TOO correct. I want it so seem naturalistic. I'll be shooting where there are headlights, street signs and possible neons so I'll use them correctly exposed to balance the underexposure of the character. Should I just correctly meter the headlights and neon signs, etc...?

 

THANKS!

[John Pytlak RIP]

You want to use an exposure that captures the detail and color in the lights when printed/transferred to achieve a "rich" black in the nightime darkness. Then light your subject for that exposure, using a lower light level than "normal" exposure would call for, and maintaining color and direction consistent with the practicals (e.g., light from a neon sign, streetlight, or lit windows).

 

For example, let's say that you find that with an EI500 film, you capture the detail and color in the practical lights best at f/2.8 at 24fps (1/48 second), when the darkest areas are printed to a neutral black of >3.0 density on the print. The "normal" light needed for that exposure is to have 20 footcandles on your actor. But since this is a night scene, you will likely find that you will achieve a much more believable lighting if you use only about 5 footcandles (2 stops under), perhaps with a bit of rim light from behind to set them apart from the black night sky, and then print the flesh tone of the actor dark, so you just make out the details and expression in their face.

 

Incident Light Table:

 

http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/support/h2/ilit.shtml

[Delorme Jean-Marie]

hi

be very carefull if you set your character with streetlight of fleeker problem if you play out of the safe 24 fps for 180° beacause street light aren't fleeker free

i'm not shure of the angle at 60 htz cause i work in 50 htz (sorry)

[John Pytlak RIP]

Street lighting is often gas discharge, either sodium vapor or mercury vapor. Likewise, neon signs flicker at the line frequency. So you do need to choose the correct shutter angle for the power line frequency (50 Hz or 60 Hz) if these are in view or illuminating the scene.

[Laurent Andrieux]

50 Hz : 24 fps -> 172°8, 25 fps -> 180 °, 30 fps : see below

60 Hz : 24 fps -> 144 °, 25 fps -> 150 °, 30 fps : 180 °

 

general formula : the time you need is 1/ F : 60 Hz -> 1/60 s... and is equal to A/V , where A is shutter angle and V the rotating speed in degrees/ sec. ex: if you soot at 30 fps at 180°, A = 180 and V = 30X360 and then t = 1/60 = 180/(30X360)

 

In US you have 60 Hz, if you shoot at 30 fps for tv, leave the shutter at 180°, you're lucky 'cause if shooting in Europe (50 Hz) for US TV at 30 fps, you'd need a shutter angle of 216 °, that, I think, doesn't exist...

 

the safe 24 fps for 180°

 

Sorry, though I'm french too, I disagree with that for flicker free, in France you need either shoot at 25 fps at 180° or 24 fps at 172°8 for being free of flicker at 50 Hz, though another solution is to have the generator run at 48 Hz instead of 50 Hz, and then you can be safe at 24 fps 180° (may be that's what you ment?)

[Phil Rhodes]

Hi,

 

I didn't have a problem with the photography for "The Bourne Supremacy." I think it was a very interesting example of how film images are so odd, bent-around and unreal that its' more than enough of a filter to allow suspension of disbelief.

 

And yes, the opening stuff at night was superb. What was the stock?

 

Phil

[Aaron Tan]

50 Hz : 24 fps -> 172°8, 25 fps -> 180 °

I'm in Australia where it's also 50Hz... I'm going to be shooting with a Canon Scoopic and at 24fps the shutter is 170°... which is 1/51. Since it's slightly off will the flicker be a problem?

 

Thanks.

[Laurent Andrieux]

Some shutter are set to 173 ° with no problem. I don't know about working at 170° but I it depends on the sources you work with. It's not a "black or white" problem. It actually also depends on what the sources are used for. When we have an HMI that flickers, we can't use it for key light nor fill in but if used as backlight, no one will notice the flicker...

 

I think the best is you to make tests. Remember that these configurations work if everything goes normally. If for instance the supply is not exactly the required frequency, you might occure problems. This is why a frequency meter is sometimes very usefull.

[Markus Rave]

There is a good example for 2 stops under on faces in the nightscene in Saving Private Ryan where Hanks is talking the first time about personal things with his men. Kaminski said he was about 2 stops under on the faces. The practicals look not overexposed and he added to the athmosphere by rimming the characters slightly.

I would not go further below, except you rim the character and play with the moving light outside. This will happen anyway and add to the dark look when you sometimes see the face sometiomes not. You may add artificial strikes of light to the face. To get richer blacks you might consider pushing one stop but rating the film at 640 or 800 ASA. In the end I don´t think you have to push 18 at all.

 

Markus

[Delorme Jean-Marie]

tu as tout a fait raison laurent.a c'est mon erreur.

is it possible to film high speed in 50 hz without fleeker free sources?

[David Mullen ASC]

Sure, at "safe" speeds, crystal-sync. I think it has to be in multiples of 25 (25 fps, 50 fps, 100 fps, 200 fps)? Don't know if your shutter has to be at 172 degrees for all of them.

[Michael Nash]

The "twice the frequency rule" applies to both 50 Hz. and 60 Hz. sources. Any frame rate that divides evenly into twice the frequency of the power supply is safe at any shutter angle. So 2x50 is 100, so any number that divides evenly into 100 is safe. That means:

 

1, 2, 4, 5, 10, 20, 50, 100, and 200.

 

There are of course other specific shutter angle/ frame rate combinations interspersed in there, like 48fps at 172.8 degrees.

 

As the number of the frame rate gets closer to the doubled frequency, there is less tolerance for error in the shutter angle. At 100 fps it's better to shoot 180 degrees than 172.8. If you go higher than that (shooting faster than 100 fps with 50Hz.) you'll want to phase the camera to the pulse of light, or else you might be evenly capturing an "off" part of the wave and lose exposure. But of course the easier way around that is to simply use non-flickering sources.

[Laurent Andrieux]

Sure, at "safe" speeds, crystal-sync. I think it has to be in multiples of 25 (25 fps, 50 fps, 100 fps, 200 fps)? Don't know if your shutter has to be at 172 degrees for all of them.

shutter has to be 172° 8 only if 50 Hz 24 fps. if 25, 180 ° is the good setting.

 

I checked the AC manual, and due to tolerance, yopu can work at 172°8, 25 fps with 50 Hz, but if you shoot at higher speed, I dont know if 172°8 will be good anymore

 

At 60 Hz, the good value at 25 fps is 150 °, but there is no tolerance in that case, so I don't know if it's would work with the multiples (50, 100... fps) at this value

[Michael Nash]

At 60 Hz, the good value at 25 fps is 150 °, but there is no tolerance in that case, so I don't know if it's would work with the multiples (50, 100... fps) at this value

The faster the frame rate, the smaller the tolerance for error. 144 degrees is recommended for 50 fps/ 60 Hz.