AFI's applicant pool

[Jody Lipes]

i have just completed studying undergraduate with a specialization in cinematography. i shot about 25 shorts in school, and i have been considering continuing my education after crewing/shooting professionally for a year or so. does the afi dp program accept applicants who have a strong student level understanding of the craft already? or is the program geared more towards people with absolutely no experience?

[Morgan Peline]

I got accepted this year but decided to attend the National Film School in England in the end. When I visited them, I got the impression that the cinematographers are all fairly experienced either as film school grads, working cinematographers, camera assistants or gaffers. So if you apply, I'm sure you will fit in quite nicely.

[Phil Rhodes]

Hi,

 

> got accepted this year but decided to attend the National Film School in England

 

Are you insane? Crikey, you'd better have a really, seriously good reason for doing that. Certainly a decision I'd encourage you, in the strongest possible terms, to reconsider.

 

> I got the impression that the cinematographers are all fairly experienced

 

Of course they're experienced, they're all three thousand years old! Also, have you actually seen the kind of "cinematography" that's regularly peddled as top-class in this country? 2K over camera and meter for exposure is the order of the day.

 

Seriously, I feel that you may be making a very serious mistake which will enormously degrade your chances of a decent career. From what I have seen of film schools in the UK they simply will not equip you for working in modern commercial filmmaking, which is almost invariably American filmmaking. The kind of production technique that's routinely taught here will be suitable for nothing more than the fringe-artform kind of filmmaking that's very occasionally pursued in the UK, and you will have no exposure to the critical US industry.

 

Yes, AFI is probably expensive - but not as expensive, I'd wager, as the results of eschewing a US film school.

 

Phil

[Jody Lipes]

does anyone know the answer to my first inquiry? Phil, you seem to think that AFI is great, but what is the skill level they are looking for?

[Jayson Crothers]

Hey Jody, I'm in my final year at AFI.

 

It's a graduate conservatory; everyone here has some experience, some more so than other; it's a place to refine your tastes and skills, not to learn the basics. It sounds like you're coming from a very strong background.

 

To give you an idea of the pool here; one gentleman from Germany had been shooting commercials professionally for around 5+ years while a woman from Florida had a strong photography background but had never before picked up a film/video camera (and, it should be noted, she does some of the most interesting things around here.............. :) )

 

Where are you located; if you're in LA, you could come take a tour.

[Jody Lipes]

thank you for responding.

 

i'm in brooklyn ny. the next time i go to LA i will defintely arrange a tour.

 

i'd like to know more about the specifics of the program if you have time to wrtie about it.

 

what was your experience before starting the program there?

 

is it true that the first year is all video?

 

what are the technical classes like (hands on, small groups of people?), what are the theory classes like?

 

is there an emphasis on some sort of job placement in the program, or is it more artistically oriented?

 

are the directors in AFI prone to work with the cinematography students or more experienced professionals?

 

if you are to busy, what is the best way for me to learn more about this program without physically being there?

[Jayson Crothers]

what was your experience before starting the program there?

 

is it true that the first year is all video?

 

what are the technical classes like (hands on, small groups of people?), what are the theory classes like?

 

is there an emphasis on some sort of job placement in the program, or is it more artistically oriented?

 

are the directors in AFI prone to work with the cinematography students or more experienced professionals?

I came from an undergraduate program where I focused on cinematography. Dozens of shorts, one feature and some internships (Panavision, MGM). I spent about a year kicking around on indies and what-not before coming to AFI.

 

The entire first year is video; it's more for time than anything else (there are 84 shorts made by first year fellows each year). By the time things are in full swing, the turnaround from shoot to final edit is literally days, so there simply isn't time for telecine, developing, etc. There are talks about making the final cycle project (everyone does three their first year) into 16mm, but it's still just talk.

 

Little to no job placement, but the classes are very artistically oriented, with a strong foundation of practical application - set management is a major emphasis as well, so it's very much a place to discover and grow artistically, and learn what being the boss is really all about.

 

AFI directors are fellows just like the cinematographers; AFI stresses collaboration above everything else.

 

Hope this helps; don't hesitate if there's anything else I can help with.

[Morgan Peline]

Hi,

 

Sorry, but I think my last post was misunderstood. It should have read 'when I visited AFI recently..'

 

As for NFTS... I think that you are being very harsh! :) Though I understand exactly what you are saying!

 

All the teachers at the NFTS are working DPs who have shot features or television in England and Hollywood. Being taught by persons such as Brian Tufano BSC, Paul Wheeler BSC, Nic Morris BSC, Nina Kellgren BSC and Sue Gibson BSC is not such a bad thing!

 

Believe me it was a very, very tough decision! When I visited AFI I was very impressed by the final year projects - very, very professional films! But at the end of the day I felt I would learn just as much by attending NFTS. Ultimately, I have decided to start my career in England, rather than the US, so attending NFTS makes more sense. Also, I'd rather be a small fish in a small pond than a small fish in a big pond. Hollywood can come later.

 

Though, I don't know for sure, I have the impression that simply living and working in the US is not always the easiest solution to finding regular work as a DP. Yes, there is much more work but there is also much more competition. I'm sure it would be a real eye opener to see how many DPs live in LA. Many top DPs such as Roger Deakins and David Tattersall, graduated from NFTS, made a name for themselves in Europe to begin with and then moved to Hollywood later in their careers.

 

Anyway, decision made...time will tell if it was the right one!

[Phil Rhodes]

Hi,

 

You do realise that the BSC is essentially a club for anyone who's shot a 90-minute drama, yes?

 

Phil

[Jody Lipes]

so there are under thirty students in the first year program? (84 films, 3 for each student?) when you say three a year do you mean three that the cinematography fellows direct, or that they shoot? are you excepted to direct as a cinematography fellow?

 

how many films are you expected to make second year, and does the number of students change the second year?

 

is there competition to decide who makes their second year films, or does every do it? are their limitations on the films? are they all supposed to be short films/features/documentary? do the cinematography fellows put money into the films they do, or do they just hop on to the directors projects?

 

i apologize for asking so many questions, i am just really interested in knowing if this place is really for me or not. i know you are really busy so take your time responding, if you can write back.

 

Thanks For Indulging Me,

 

Jody Lee Lipes

[Morgan Peline]

Hi,

 

Jayson can probably give you more accurate info but here goes:

 

>so there are under thirty students in the first year program? (84 films, 3 for each student?) when you say three a year do you mean three that the cinematography fellows direct, or that they shoot? are you excepted to direct as a cinematography fellow?

 

As far as I understand it - students have lectures 3 days a week and then shoot over the remaining 4 days. Each discipline has 28 students apart from Editing who have 14 students and Production Design who are usually under-subscribed. I think this year they have 16. The first year projects are 15-20 minutes long, shot on DVCAM over 4 days and edited over 8. The first cycle projects are writer led, the second producer led and the third director led. Cinematographers shoot all 3 projects as DP. When not DPing their own projects they help out on other projects in various other roles. In the first year DPs also shoot an MOS project on 16mm - for this project they make all the decisions and decide how they want to make it and who crews on the film. There is talk of shooting the 3rd cycle films on 16mm.

 

>how many films are you expected to make second year, and does the number of students change the second year?is there competition to decide who makes their second year films, or does every do it? are their limitations on the films? are they all supposed to be short films/features/documentary? do the cinematography fellows put money into the films they do, or do they just hop on to the directors projects?

 

In the second year cinematographers DP a 25 minute thesis film which is shot on 35mm or HD (sometimes 16mm or digibeta) and also shoot a 35mm MOS project on which they make all decisions. I understand that sometimes students don't come back for the second year because they find work but usually most come back. Everybody who goes on to second year makes a thesis film. AFI concentrates on narrative fiction. AFI does put money towards the films (I can't remember how much...$8,000 maybe?) but as I understand it, also matches whatever the producer is able to raise.

 

All through the 2 years world class DPs such as Roger Deakins, Janus Kaminski and John Toll give talks and carry out workshops on their art.

 

This is the information I was able to get...some of it might be inaccurate but this is the gist of it.

[Morgan Peline]

Phil,

 

That may be so but does that make it any different from the ACS, AFC, ASC, HKSC or any other SC? Though of course it's true that it was the ASC was the first such association. These are simply associations where experienced cinematographers show their appreciation for the work of their fellow filmmakers.

For me, I think 'experienced' is the important part. Wherever you study experienced practitoners who are also good teachers can point you in the right direction.

[Phil Rhodes]

Hi,

 

In answer to your opening question, yes, it does. At least, I have found it to be the case (to whatever level I am experienced to ascertain this) that the ASC makes at least some ability-related requirement of its membership, whereas the BSC seems to induct anyone who's shot a 90-minute drama.

 

I realise I'm beginning to sound slightly like Geoff Boyle here, but it's true.

 

Phil

[Jody Lipes]

wow, 7 days a week is a pretty heavy load. it is unfortunate that this time commitment doesn't seem to match the output which the program dictates. shooting 1 35mm 25 minute short in an entire year of seven day weeks seems like a low number. I would think that 3 or 4 would be more appropriate for a program like this.

 

is it possible to shoot more of the student projects than you are assigned, or is every director arbitrarily matched with a dp? i would definitely want the director and i to find each other, rather than have the school decide.

 

is there simply no time to do more than 1 film in the second year?

 

what kinds of jobs do students leave for after their first year?

 

and which camera companies sponser the school? is it arriflex, panavision, aaton? and what type of lighting instruments is the school equipt with?

[Jayson Crothers]

Morgan got it pretty close; just a few corrections.

 

>>As far as I understand it - students have lectures 3 days a week and then shoot over the remaining 4 days. Each discipline has 28 students apart from Editing who have 14 students and Production Design who are usually under-subscribed. I think this year they have 16. The first year projects are 15-20 minutes long, shot on DVCAM over 4 days and edited over 8. The first cycle projects are writer led, the second producer led and the third director led. Cinematographers shoot all 3 projects as DP. When not DPing their own projects they help out on other projects in various other roles. In the first year DPs also shoot an MOS project on 16mm - for this project they make all the decisions and decide how they want to make it and who crews on the film. There is talk of shooting the 3rd cycle films on 16mm.>>

 

Only 8 PD's this year.

 

>>In the second year cinematographers DP a 25 minute thesis film which is shot on 35mm or HD (sometimes 16mm or digibeta) and also shoot a 35mm MOS project on which they make all decisions. I understand that sometimes students don't come back for the second year because they find work but usually most come back. Everybody who goes on to second year makes a thesis film. AFI concentrates on narrative fiction. AFI does put money towards the films (I can't remember how much...$8,000 maybe?) but as I understand it, also matches whatever the producer is able to raise. <<

 

The thesis film is of varying lengths, and nobody shoots on Digibeta - the worst you're looking at is HD. We have 23 cinematographers left this year. AFI starts each thesis with $11,000 (which goes quickly), and the rest is up to the team to raise (grants, etc).

 

Second year there are really only 2 classes, occassionally a third. Every week is 1-2 guests (typically cinematographers), and the rest of the time you're crewing for each other or prepping your own thesis.

[Jayson Crothers]

Jody, a few responses:

 

<<wow, 7 days a week is a pretty heavy load. it is unfortunate that this time commitment doesn't seem to match the output which the program dictates. shooting 1 35mm 25 minute short in an entire year of seven day weeks seems like a low number. I would think that 3 or 4 would be more appropriate for a program like this.>>

 

Crewing takes up 6 days of that, and if you consider you'd have 6-8 other cinematographers crewing for you on your thesis, then you need another crew for your MOS, you've now got to return the favor to each person (ie, you now belong to 12-16 other thesis/MOS shoots). With this, classes, and trying to prep ambitious films with little money, your time quickly vanishes. I'm shooting two thesis films since a few cinematographers aren't back this year, and frankly I'm juggling a lot to pull it off. Many cinematographers unofficially "leave" after their shoots - they try to start working before graduation. Crewing is what really takes most of the time.

 

<<is it possible to shoot more of the student projects than you are assigned, or is every director arbitrarily matched with a dp? i would definitely want the director and i to find each other, rather than have the school decide.>>

 

First year, you shoot three films. AFI has no say on who you work with.

 

<<what kinds of jobs do students leave for after their first year?>>

 

It varies, as with everywhere. Some walk out and start shooting, some go into crewing, some get applications at Starbucks (kidding........I hope).

 

<<and which camera companies sponser the school? is it arriflex, panavision, aaton? and what type of lighting instruments is the school equipt with?>>

 

Nobody sponsors the school, but being in LA and having a solid reputation, most vendors are very helpful and supportive. The school has a modest but efficient amount of equipment for both first and second year productions.

[Jody Lipes]

thanks for taking the time to inform me.

[billdillasc]

Let me just add my 2 cents worth.

 

I can tell you that I've never been influenced by the format on which an applicants work has been submitted. I couldn't care less. I wish it were that easy. We've not accepted applicants at AFI with tons of experience and lots of "beautiful" images on their reel. We've admitted applicants who have never been on a motion picture set before. The real questions are much harder, more subtle, to answer, "Does this person have something to say?" "Can this person learn to say it in the program we've created?"

 

bd

[Jayson Crothers]

Bill, good to have you on the forum.

 

Now if only we could get you back to AFI.............. :D

[Kevin Zanit]

Bill,

 

It is very good to have you here. I have heard nothing but great things.

 

 

Kevin Zanit

[Wendell_Greene]

Welcome Mr. Bill Dill, ASC! So great to have you here.

 

Man, oh man this forum just keeps getting better and better. Look at all the great professionals: Dominic Case, Michael Most, David Mullen, ASC, John Ptylak, Mitch Gross, John Sprung, Michael Nash to name check only a few.

 

I almost feel compelled to send Tim Tyler a check with the word "tuition fee for continuing education" in the memo line! - :D

[billdillasc]

I'll try to check in here periodically. My schedule is pretty wild these days but this is a good thing.

 

bd

[Morgan Peline]

Hi Bill,

 

Greetings! It's great to have you on the forum. It's a pity we never got the chance to meet in person but I'm sure we'll have quite a few chats here on the forum!

 

Best regards

Morgan Peline