Jump to content

Quiet...


Jim Jannard

Recommended Posts

It is quite interesting that as soon as it was announced that Timur was shooting RED for "Wanted"... this board got very quiet.

 

Jim

 

Maybe some of us are waiting for NAB to see what's going to happen or really wait unit the camera hits the market.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Maybe some of us are waiting for NAB to see what's going to happen or really wait unit the camera hits the market.

 

That didn't stop anyone before from posting...

 

Jim

Edited by Jim Jannard
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Let me ask you an honest question... do you really care what we think?

 

Actually... no. From the beginning, this board has been negative. If I'd have listened to this board, we would have never done this camera. I guess there is some satisfaction that this board has inspired us to continue.

 

Jim

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Actually... no. From the beginning, this board has been negative. If I'd have listened to this board, we would have never done this camera. I guess there is some satisfaction that this board has inspired us to continue.

 

Jim

Well, of course you care, because you have quantified it. Doesn't make much sense to ask for opinions again at this point, then say you don't care. I get that, sometimes I think I'm most influenced by the films I hate the most. They compel me to do something completely different than them. Even though I adamantly dislike these films, sure, I do care about them, because I pay close attention to them and consider what didn't work, aesthetically or otherwise. I think it's the same thing. Or maybe I'm just crazy.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Premium Member

Jim, I thought you recently told us to hold our opinions until NAB... which is what we are doing.

 

I think you should let the camera speak for itself at this point rather than rehash old arguments. The fact that there was so much skepticism before the camera was finished should only tell you how much you and the RED team managed to accomplish in such a short time, which you have to admit was a major task. Skepticism can only be a compliment at this point; imagine if you had announced your laundry list of goals a year ago and instead of being skeptical, we went "(yawn)... 4K camera... sounds easy, so why haven't you done it yet?"

 

Now you want to pick a fight with your skeptics, just at the time when you should be wiping the slate clean of old arguments and starting fresh with a real camera that you can show people? Just when the skeptics were starting to be less skeptical?

 

Please, don't go down that path. You'll regret it. It's like tearing a scab that was finally healing.

 

You still have a whole film industry to sell this camera to and you want to start building long-term relationships now, not creating an enemies list, not holding grudges, otherwise you'll find your company marginalized. Panavision and Arri are successful not just because they make good cameras, but because they forge long-term client relationships.

 

If you keep encouraging this "either you're on our side or you're the enemy" taking of sides, you're only going to scare away potential customers who simply want to buy a good camera, not join a war. I don't see the point of keeping this partisan approach going just at the point you are about to introduce the camera to the world. The story will end up not being about the camera, it will be about this silly war. You and your company has to start acting like the adults here and be above the petty arguments, regardless of how other people act. If you take everything personally, no one is going to take your company seriously. Camera designers and managers from Sony, Panavision, Arriflex, Aaton, etc. don't come onto internet forums and get into little arguments with potential customers.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Actually... no. From the beginning, this board has been negative. If I'd have listened to this board, we would have never done this camera. I guess there is some satisfaction that this board has inspired us to continue.

 

Jim

 

Yeah there some true film lovers here that don't like HD... to me it doesn't matter anymore... if I can shoot HD on a smaller feature and save money... or really put that money in better known talent... I'm all for it...

 

But to be honest I got tired of the nasty pm's sent... "oh you don't know what your talking about this camera is only going to cost this much too shoot with"... "its a camera for the little guy"...

 

No its a pro camera once it hits the market and stay on the market... once the $17.5 price was talked about from there on... I said this is for a guy who can't afford a Cine Alta... or Varicam...

 

I can even remember getting chewed out in a nasty pm... when I posted that I thought by the time you buy the matte box, follow focus, the Red zoom, tripod, etc, for shooting and then guessing what you would need in post... the whole deal might run you $60k... I posted that's not bad... that's the price of a Varicam body... and you'll get 35mm dof with that...

 

Then there was the strange email from some guy that he was being sued or something from yourself... if your still online... it was kinda of reminded me of a guy who talks about little green men...

 

But I think some took it that if you say... well it all sounds great... but until I can go out and shoot with it... see what the workflow is... its not real... it was taken as being negative by yourself and those who put down a $1,000...

 

So maybe you can see it from my side of the fence...

 

I guess there is some satisfaction that this board has inspired us to continue.

 

Jim

 

Ah see it works both ways... by writing here... my writers block is no longer there... :)

Edited by Gary McClurg
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Jim, not that my opinion should matter all that much to you - I'll probably never be a customer simply due to lack of funds - but I have to agree with David on this one. I think he's summed it up well, as he so often does.

 

I've followed the Red project for months now out of interest in the project and its implications for the motion picture industry. I love the fact that glimpses of the camera's development have been doled out bit by bit, sustaining a high level of interest for quite some time. I think that reservation holders must feel privileged to see their cameras designed and built from scratch in front of their eyes, especially when they offered feedback and suggestions that were actually incorporated.

 

So, maybe I'm missing something, maybe I haven't read all of the right threads, maybe I'm late to the party, or maybe it's just me - but the overwhelming feeling that I get from Red as a company at this point is not that pleasant. It could just be a result of your team vigorously defending your project at every turn due to overwhelming skepticism - that seems to lend itself to a very unapproachable, tense quality surrounding the project, despite the boundaries that you're breaking and the trends that you'll probably set. I can't help but to think it would be so much more effective to bite your tongue and present the "I told you so" in the form of a finished camera that meets or beats everyone's expectations.

 

Threads like this one certainly don't help my impression. I guess I just find it disconcerting that a self-made billionaire feels the need to provoke a conflict like this in an Internet forum. Like David said, most of the "anti-Red" arguments have been petty, and I feel they don't even deserve a response on your part. I find it admirable that you're so open and accessible in your professional pursuits - but conversely, I find it disturbing that you've been so quick to engage your random detractors on a personal, almost childish level.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I agree with David on this, let the camera speak.

 

The Internet conflict is all part of viral marketing - those threads with the most extreme opinions being expressed were the ones that had the largest number of people viewing.

 

However, it's now time for things to settle down and people to let decide on how useful the RED camera will be to their future productions.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It is quite interesting that as soon as it was announced that Timur was shooting RED for "Wanted"... this board got very quiet.

 

Jim

So? Getting on to a decade ago a small-but-perfectly-formed cinematic maverick by the name George Lucas announced that he was going to use the CineAlta to shoot Star Wars Episode 2. That set of a real avalanche of Digital Movie production, didn't it.

 

But OK, I'll bite.

 

ASSUMING that your camera is everything you say it is, and when you finally start the actual deliveries to actual customers:

 

What sort of infrastructure do you plan to have in place for after-sales service, in the event that something goes wrong with one of the cameras, (and it will, trust me).

 

Are you going to have some sort of 24-hour helpline for instance? Service agents in other countries?

 

Please don't tell us again about Oakley's record of warranty backup. It's one thing to fix or replace a pair of sunglasses, it's quite another to sort out a high-tech item like the RED.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Premium Member

Underdog? Fer chrissake, the guy's a multi millionaire. Only in America is he an underdog.

 

I'm afraid now this whole affair has left such a bitter aftertaste I doubt I'll ever want to have anything to do with the damn camera.

 

Phil

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Underdog? Fer chrissake, the guy's a multi millionaire. Only in America is he an underdog.

 

I'm afraid now this whole affair has left such a bitter aftertaste I doubt I'll ever want to have anything to do with the damn camera.

 

Phil

Look, the f*cking thing either works or it doesn't. It's a machine. It can't help its origins. I mean Sony have been complete turds at times, but nobody's going to refuse to use one of their cameras just because of that.

 

I seriously doubt that someone like you is going to be put out of employment by the likes of your average RedUser fanboy. (How many actual "Red Users" are there at present, by the way? 2? 3? :D )

It doesn't matter how cheap the camera is, they'll still want to hire somebody who knows what he is doing.

 

I'll reserve judgement until I see an actual real-world production in my local cinema, but if Jannard wants to use his personal fortune to subsidize the film industry, who are we to stand in his way.

 

If it works as advertised in the real world, the RED may well turn out to be the missing link that gets HDTV off the ground. I don't know how long he'll have the market to himself though; he may be doing an IBM PC: demonstrating that a product is possible and a market exists, only to have it snatched away from him by more able competitors.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Jim?s attitude it?s a sing of health on his collision course with a fanatic community like the cinematographers one, am not talking for the forum, its more generic the problem and it doesn?t apply to everyone but to a small minority that has lost through the years the true meaning of making Cinema.

 

I hope that no 9/11 will happen nor Bush will decide to invite Iran while we waiting NAB to happen.

 

I can feel his anxiety, I was in his position few years ago while I was waiting to introduce something quite radical as his camera back at IBC 2001, the first (together with directors friend) system for direct to disk recording and edit while you ware on set for production use and unfortunately two days before the two planes hit the twins towers? in my case this was a disaster? ?Director?s friend? also?

 

With this Idea, editing while shooting, I was having the same fight with editors, engineers and even directors? It was like I was trying to preach a new religion I was feeling like a preacher!!!

 

Today all that is a common practice ? And masterpieces like Russian Arc were made possible. My personal opinion is that all this argue is meaningless since digital is the physical evolution to that industry and the one that hasn?t has open mind he will loose his job because for producers its just the storytelling what maters.

 

And Jim is not like a small company in Greece or in Germany that tries to conquer the world with few hundred thousands dollars. Jim is in the Fortune 500 so this is a personal Vendeda (Fight) for him and by looking of how professional Oakley is handling their clients like US army I can say that very few thinks can stop Red to evolve.

 

So Jim don?t stop try your best and at the end you will win because everyone that has a bad word for digital cinema has the most advanced DSLR in his bag to make his living and not the old film SLR?

 

But look to other sensors like Foveon and try to make an optical shatter and an optical viewfinder. I have play a little bit with a Foveon kit from Alternative Vision and this lack of need to deBayer is awesome?

 

Best regards from Greece,

 

P.S. I will probably be a client of yours for my rental/DI business quite soon?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have followed RED. I was in the "early" group of reservation holders, and have watched CML from day one. While I don't know Jim personally, he and I have written, and he has always been kind.

 

That said, I also agree with David, but understand Jim completely. This board was amazing in it's cruelty and malice for a long time. NO one that liked RED was safe, not even me. David is correct about what "should" be done, but I also know that extremely successful people can be competitive to a fault, and even a little vengeful. And of course, they take things VERY PERSONALLY. It's what drives them, its THEIR concept, THEIR idea, and when you diss it, you diss them.

 

David, I think Jim will wipe all the arguements aside, but I would not doubt he take a moment here and there to remind those people who took a lot of time being degrading and insulting, that they are in fact #1: Idiots, and #2 wrong.. Here's the proof (insert camera here).. In all of their complaints, and chest thumping, they backed the wrong horse and it looks like in one week they will look like idiots. If I were them, I'd steer clear of the RED booth this time around.

 

Is it good business? Not really. Will it make a difference to RED's bottom line?: If the camera works? Hell no!

 

I always find it humorous when we give Billionares business advice.. If I was a betting man, I'd bet Jim knows a lot more about business than most if not all of us put together.

 

That was the mistake so many made, they judged the potential of the camera on it's technical points. And they judged Jim using little or no research as to the various businesses he's involved in. I kept hearing "the sunglass guy". A little research turns up a lot more than that. I learned long ago that good equipment is never about the equipment, it's about the track record of the people who build it.

 

I'm glad Jim's earned the right to get his pound of flesh because it's in his personality to do so.. And that same personality is what drove him to build the damn camera in spite of harsh insults. And I need that damn camera.

 

Now I assume we will see people quietly shift the arguements from complaints and doubts about the camera to complaints about RED as a company. Bottom line, this is not over.

 

As for me, the more the complainers write, the happier I get!

 

Jay

 

This board has taught me something... I have taken some time and gone back and printed off a buttload of posts that insulted, complained, and attacked Jim and his dream in a disrespectful manner, not to mention those of us "fanboys" who backed him. When you chase a dream, you must prepare for people like this to stand in your way. When I tell my son this when he is old enough, he will ask "what people Daddy?". I can pull out these posts, and say "people like this". Never listen Joshua, anyone who tries to look smart or knowlegeable at the expense of someone else's dreams and/or emotions is not to be respected. Just ignore them and keep moving forward.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Premium Member

This site is made up of a WIDE variety of people -- it's not indicative of the professional world (CML is closer to that, and they haven't been uncritical), it's just a slice of random people who shoot film and video, high and low, experienced and inexperienced. And some people are anti-digital to a fault, but some people are pro-digital to a fault -- which sort of negates either group on the extremes as a source for useful criticism, just mostly a lot of noise.

 

But I can tell you after attending meetings with cinematographers to see a new digital projector, or a new digital camera, or a new film stock, or a new print stock, over the years -- is that professionals are nitpicky about their tools. It only seems like an anti-digital bias to those people who haven't been there to see a DP tear into a Kodak rep about a new stock after a demo.

 

I recall the big premiere of the new Vision-2 line at the DGA Theater in Los Angeles and you never saw a bunch of more critical people afterwards.

 

I remember when Arri introduced the new Arri-535, their first major improvement over the old BL line, and the major complaint was "why did you make the camera so heavy?"

 

Sure, even in the professional world, there are people who stake out extreme positions based on personal bias rather than any practical concerns, but for most of them, they are just a very picky group of people and invariably the tools get better because of that. Don't think that the majority of professionals have it out for digital cameras in particular.

 

I'm sure once that the RED camera is out there being tested, there will be all sorts of little defects that people will point out that will seem insignificant (or not, I don't know yet) but ultimately it will lead to the RED 2 camera being a little better, etc. Just think how bad off we would be today if no one complained about the Sony F900 over the years or the HDCAM tape format, yet that was quite a breakthrough in 2000.

 

I just hope that everyone here from now on would ignore the worst of the anti-digital types who will have nothing good to say, as well as ignore the "fan boys" who have nothing critical to say -- just ignore their posts, don't engage them in a discussion, don't be provoked, put them on the "ignore posts" feature of the forum -- and try to (politely) make practical criticisms that may lead to a better product. Which obviously will be easier once we have a chance to work with the camera.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
×
×
  • Create New...