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RED is for real...I've seen it


Jeff Tanner

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This camera is fantastic. There is no argument to be made about it's existence, it's capabilities, it's technology, or it's price.

 

I've seen Peter Jackson's film that was shot with two RED camera's and it was spectacular. Film has a special place in my heart and always will but after putting my hands on the RED and talking to the people who built it (who answered every question that I had...in great detail) and seeing the demo film shot with it, there is no question that this camera is the real deal.

 

If you can honestly say that the RED camera does not meet your specifications after viewing the demo and playing with the camera yourself, then don't buy one but stop all of this unfounded speculation on it's shortcomings or problems that you percieve. I honestly believe that there is little reason to shoot 35mm film anymore and no reason whatsoever to shoot 16mm or super 16mm. I am stunned by what I saw at NAB today. So stunned that I've ordered a RED camera for our company.

 

I am by no means as technologically saavy as some of you are but I judge by what I can see and this camera meets every criteria for me.

 

Respectfully,

 

JT

Edited by Jeff Tanner
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I honestly believe that there is little reason to shoot 35mm film anymore and no reason whatsoever to shoot 16mm or super 16mm. I am stunned by what I saw at NAB today. So stunned that I've ordered a RED camera for our company.

 

I am by no means as technologically saavy as some of you are but I judge by what I can see and this camera meets every criteria for me.

 

Respectfully,

 

JT

 

congratulations and welcome to the club!

 

i am curious - when you ordered, could they tell when they expect to ship your new ordered camera and did they mention how many cameras have been sold?

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I honestly believe that there is little reason to shoot 35mm film anymore and no reason whatsoever to shoot 16mm or super 16mm.

 

Good grief man, ever heard of the idea of using different formats because they look different?

 

Anyway, here is one positive about RED that I am certain about. Many of REDs competitors have pre-ordered cameras, if RED is for real, the market place is going to be full of high quality competitors in a year or two and the price should go down as well.

 

I'm just disapointed that no one has announced a new super 8 camera at NAB.

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Good grief man, ever heard of the idea of using different formats because they look different?

 

Not to mention if you want to shoot for 35mm contact-printing without going through any laser recording of digital files to 35mm interneg.

 

Seriously, the final test will come when the RED camera is shot badly, not shot well, because everyone can make mistakes sometimes. People need to see how the image craps out, not just how it looks when well-photographed, exposed perfectly, minimally color-corrected, etc. It needs to be pushed to the breaking point because at some point, all formats, film and digital, are pushed to the point of failure.

 

Plus someone's going to have to take a feature film's worth of RED 4K data, maybe some 50 hours worth, and take it all the way through post to a film-out, just to get that workflow smoothed out.

 

All demos look gorgeous generally. I always take them with a grain of salt, even though it's nice to know how much quality can be obtained.

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So now that Red exists and can be bought and tested can we get back to debating it now?

 

Hang on a second....there are two guys that call themselves the Borg at my door. Hey you where........I love RED......Richard love RED.......35mm film is obsolete.......must shoot RED.

 

R,

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"Seriously, the final test will come when the RED camera is shot badly, not shot well, because everyone can make mistakes sometimes."

 

I agree, i saw 2 years ago at a "AFC" conference a test shot xith the genesis hand held around a pool table, large windows on a bright day and no additional light with a 360° around the table and a fix F stop.

there you could see a lot ! how the camera manage hight contrasts, bright lights and deep shadows.

Projected in 35mm print.

 

does such an "anti-demo" exist for RED?, maybe one of the new owner of this board could film a simple test like this one and let us know?

 

For true HD concerns what does the RED offers more than the Modular?

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Not to mention if you want to shoot for 35mm contact-printing without going through any laser recording of digital files to 35mm interneg.

 

David, I completely understand where you're coming from. However, my opinion is based on what I do...commercials. To undergo the process of printing for theatrical release is something that I'm not familiar with (yet). For my work, this is an incredible accomplishment and I firmly believe that even someone like yourself who shoots features will be impressed by what this camera offers. No negative purchase (what will that save production on even the tightest of shooting ratios?), no processing. I wish that RED would send you a camera to test since you are so active on this site as well as cinematography.net. Even though I don't know you personally, I really believe that you would love the features and quality of this camera since you are a true student and lover of cinema.

 

Seriously, the final test will come when the RED camera is shot badly, not shot well, because everyone can make mistakes sometimes. People need to see how the image craps out, not just how it looks when well-photographed, exposed perfectly, minimally color-corrected, etc. It needs to be pushed to the breaking point because at some point, all formats, film and digital, are pushed to the point of failure.

 

But this completely eliminates MOST of the problems I see in the theater. Dirty gates. With the 4K data files I think that anyone who calls themselves a cinematographer will be able to operate well within this camera's limitations and I'm not sure what the limitations are yet.

 

Plus someone's going to have to take a feature film's worth of RED 4K data, maybe some 50 hours worth, and take it all the way through post to a film-out, just to get that workflow smoothed out.

 

Again, I agree but from my perspective the likelyhood of success seems nearly certain.

 

All demos look gorgeous generally. I always take them with a grain of salt, even though it's nice to know how much quality can be obtained.

 

I await your personal testing. I'm eager to know what someone of your stature thinks. All that I can say is that this camera will render 35mm obsolete for my commercial/tv programming/documentary work.

 

Respectfully,

 

Jeff

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So now that Red exists and can be bought and tested can we get back to debating it now?

 

Hang on a second....there are two guys that call themselves the Borg at my door. Hey you where........I love RED......Richard love RED.......35mm film is obsolete.......must shoot RED.

 

R,

 

 

You're in a desert, walking along in the sand when all of a sudden you look down...

What one?

What?

What desert?

It doesn't make any difference what desert, it's completely hypothetical.

But, how come I'd be there?

Maybe you're fed up. Maybe you want to be by yourself. Who knows? You look down and see a tortoise, Richard. It's crawling toward you...

Tortoise? What's that?

You know what a turtle is?

Of course!

Same thing.

I've never seen a turtle. (pause) But I understand what you mean.

You reach down and you flip the tortoise over on its back, Richard-

Do you make up these questions, Mr. Brighton? Or do they write 'em down for you?

The-tortoise lays-on-its back-its belly-baking in-the hot-sun, beating-its legs-trying to-turn itself-over but-it can't.Not without-your help.-But you're-not-helping.

WHAT DO YOU MEAN, I'M NOT HELPING?

I mean you're not helping! Why is that, Richard?

(Richard has become visibly shaken)

 

They're just questions, Richard. In answer to your query they're written down for me. It's a test, designed to provoke an emotional response. (pause) Shall we continue?

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Film is not dead, it will be just marginalized to the special projects.

Also you can have ?film like? filter in post, so you can apply film-like-look to your final digital material. Some people are sentimental and some material calls for old film look, instead of silky smooth crispy look of digital. Nature/science films and wide angle shots will benefit from digital high detail content for sure.

Edited by Andrew Ray
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Dave, as on any other forums, when people post something it is IMHO kind of statements unless otherwise specified.

 

Sorry, I should add that it is my opinion.

That is why I read the forums, to compare many people opinions and arguments and then pull my own judgment out of it.

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Dirty gates is a projector problem, not a camera problem generally.

 

And with 1.85 projection, a dirty camera gate is below the projection area anyway, so you'd only see a hair in a camera gate with 35mm anamorphic projection of something shot with anamorphic lenses -- which is rare (a dirty camera gate, not anamorphic photography.)

 

What I was referring to as the image being pushed to failure is having to make extreme corrections in post to problematic material, since digital images crap-out in non-film-like ways than film images do.

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You're speaking of a future that isn't here yet, so again, we're not talking practical reality just theory.

 

i have to agree with david mullen here - and i have big $$$.$$$ in our digital cameras, so i am certainly not an usual suspect of the "film for ever", "digital bashers".

 

film works, lots of mayor players have invested millions of dollars in their infrastructure, and especially as the -distribution- is mainly film basing there will be years and years to come where we will see lots of film used and sold.

 

what we can assume, is that the raise in digital cinematic productions will be -strongly- accelerated, and i suppose not only a-budgets but also indy etc.

 

one thing however is for sure, the market share of digital cinematic cameras skyrocketed - and the sales of new 16/35mm will be somewhat more difficult from here.

 

many business models will be altered. and, most important for me, most of the creative & quality issues one could have when shooting digital are now easy to overcome - be it 35 dof, arri pl lock, higher frame rates, very high bitdepth for DI/CC, 4k, lightweight, compact camera and yes, also last but not least - production costs when shooting digital now can begin to be really really interesting.

 

one thing will be interesting to watch - i think we have a new candidate for the best selling cinemacamera of the last 25 years.

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one thing will be interesting to watch - i think we have a new candidate for the best selling cinemacamera of the last 25 years.

 

I would rather see this camera to be top best movie maker camera.

At 17.5K where most other cameras sell for 100K+ I am almost sure it will be the best selling camera.

 

To mention the Dave comment about RED profits.

Startup businesses usually have profitability as a least concern, especially when the business has the good backing of the investors.

RED does not need to turn profit in the next few years. Actually making profit when company is in explosive growth it is considered mismanagement or at least poor management.

Some companies do not make any profit at all and are still not called ?non profit organizations? Such companies make money for the investors just by growing fast, without making a penny of profit or even loosing a bit all the time.

Once the revenue is there you can sell RED for few billion dollars and it is where long term thinking kick in.

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I would rather see this camera to be top best movie maker camera.

At 17.5K where most other cameras sell for 100K+ I am almost sure it will be the best selling camera.

 

A RED costs tad more than the basic $17.50k figure for the camera module. It's rather like saying a film camera costs the price of the body and then forgetting about needing a viewfinder, a magazine etc.

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A RED costs tad more than the basic $17.50k figure for the camera module. It's rather like saying a film camera costs the price of the body and then forgetting about needing a viewfinder, a magazine etc.

 

Absolutely correct! But the comparison is still valid: RED's body is only $17.50k while it's competitors' "body" are in the 100s of thousands!

 

I think there is no point in suggesting today that the RED is not gonna have any impact on the current market for digital movie-cameras. I think minimizing the fact they truly are slashing their competitors' prices doesn't make much sense at all! Not only are they slashing the price, but they also seem to offer better performance. So, I clearly see no reason to refuse to smile today, because today, we, cinematographers, truly have an interesting and affordable new tool to play around with :)

 

Several members of this forum doubted the Red would ever come out, several people suspected it was a scam! They were all wrong! That's the only thing that matters today! In the coming months, we shall see how appropriate and how efficient this new tool really is! But for now, let us all be convinced this wasn't a BIG SCAM like several members of this forum suggested so many times over the past 12 months...

Edited by Emmanuel Decarpentrie
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A RED costs tad more than the basic $17.50k figure for the camera module. It's rather like saying a film camera costs the price of the body and then forgetting about needing a viewfinder, a magazine etc.

 

not for us reservationholders - for us its just 15.000$ as we got 2.500$ vouchers from RED for every single camera as a gift.

 

one can start with a very nice small package slightly below 20.000, the mother-of-all-red configuration is slightly above 30.000$. for featurework i would consider to have ~>$10.000 additional storage near the set/studio to benefit of the possibilities of digital cinema aqusition (backups, on-set roughedit etc)

 

as red uses all proven, stadard technology whereever possible, you can use v-mount power, regular cf-cards or expresscard, arri-pl lens (with adapter nikon, 2/3 sony, canon), 15/19mm rods etc - so buying used gear is possible for the ones on a budget.

 

what is important to consider - the lenses (besides the ones of red and adapted nikon/canon) cost quite a bit again, and flaws in the lens will be quickly revealed with such an image quality.

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Several members of this forum doubted the Red would ever come out, several people suspected it was a scam! They were all wrong! That's the only thing that matters today! In the coming months, we shall see how appropriate and how efficient this new tool really is! But for now, let us all be convinced this wasn't a BIG SCAM like several members of this forum suggested so many times over the past 12 months...

It is exactly these silly 'I told you so' and 'us versus them' attitudes that makes the noise to signal ratio on the Red subforum higher than on any other place on this forum. So thanks Emmanuel for pouring some more oil into the flames.

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