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RED is for real...I've seen it


Jeff Tanner

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For a few years I was a projectionist at an AMC movie theater. At my movie theater and I imagine most are similar, they didn't want to pay for a full time projectionist so for most shows the managers were running projection. They did this in a hurry and as a result prints were scratched, lenses weren't clean, focus problems insued. Film prints have a very short life. If the whole production chain were 4K it might simplify matters.

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So, RED is for real. I'll admit, I originally thought the whole thing was vaporware. Now that I've been proven wrong, I'd like to try one out at some point.

 

I have a question that doesn't seem to come up much in the film vs. digital discussion -- what do the distributors and television stations think? Last I heard, distributors and television stations had a strong bias toward shot-on-film material, at least as far as feature-length movies were concerned. Anyone know if this is still the case?

 

things have changed quite a bit.

meanwhile film can be of advantage, can be of disadvantage.

BBC, one tough example, won´t allow S16 film on their HD-channel and is moving its drama away from 35mm.

 

Also, with the likes of Grindhouse, Zodiac, Apocalypto, Stallones Rocky etc digital cinemaproduction has become pretty mainstream and the big wooo-hooo which sourrounded early on digital cinema production like 5 years ago has faded away, certainly also influenced by the more & more popular DI process.

 

On the other hand, this berlinale, some distributors ("only" for DVD) expressed their concern about "HD" - without knowing they bough some HDV and it really looked not good.

 

but these are only european perspectives and i suppose it is almost impossible to generalize here.

 

however, from the pov of production, one thing has changed - meanwhile there is enough good craftmansship out there in almost any position, so one can easily avoid/lay off naysayers in the crews and get experienced folks. that was pretty challenging in the earlier days ~2001-2004.

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the BBC dont shoot any dramas on 35mm , S16 is normal , though they say they wont anymore , but that will change when they sort out their crap compression they are using at the moment and the video engineers are put back in the cupboard where they belong.

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however, from the pov of production, one thing has changed - meanwhile there is enough good craftmansship out there in almost any position . . . that was pretty challenging in the earlier days ~2001-2004.

 

I disagree, the technology is still changing fast enough that we are always playing catch-up. each HD system has its own limatations and advantages, NO ONE out there knows them all, in production or in post. In fact I find it difficult to get crews to really understand, embrace and execute the new HD workflows; and the crews I work with are far from low budget hacks.

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the BBC dont shoot any dramas on 35mm , S16 is normal , though they say they wont anymore , but that will change when they sort out their crap compression they are using at the moment and the video engineers are put back in the cupboard where they belong.

 

dont get me wrong . i think its a bad decision on the side of bbc, but...

 

?Drama on film has got to stop.?

Alan Yentob, Creative Director of the BBC.

 

?With HD cameras, we can do anything we want them to?.

?With HD you can move more quickly and less encumbered?.

Jane Tranter, Controller BBC Fiction.

 

?There will be no Super 16mm on the HD channel?

Andy Quested, Principal Technologist BBC.

 

35mm is allowed for drama btw - its all on BBC webpage.

 

 

I disagree, the technology is still changing fast enough that we are always playing catch-up. each HD system has its own limatations and advantages, NO ONE out there knows them all, in production or in post. In fact I find it difficult to get crews to really understand, embrace and execute the new HD workflows; and the crews I work with are far from low budget hacks.

 

i feel your pain, as we have been through all this.

 

luckily we own the complete workflow from lens to master and started very early on. basicly our 2k, 1080p and HDCAM workflows have been pretty optimized in the recent 5 years + we were able to built up & qualify enough freelancers in any departement. 4k is still the way you descibe it - however here in berlin we have pretty small teams as well, 15-100 folks are usual.

 

basing on those experiences we will have a full month of benchmarking/testing with red for to streamline the 4k side of things.

 

but i know exactly what you are talking of, last week we had to deal for another production with a b-camera (hvx200) which was copied to a rather exotic disk, it took almost one full day to get these files out of the storage into the nle and on the HDCAM tapes - for 6 minutes of footage.

 

education, planning & preproduction is -really- cruicial if you shot digital for cinema.

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?Drama on film has got to stop.?

Alan Yentob, Creative Director of the BBC.

 

I'm not saying it's inaccurate, but I would like to see the context of this statement.

 

?With HD cameras, we can do anything we want them to?.

?With HD you can move more quickly and less encumbered?.

Jane Tranter, Controller BBC Fiction.

 

Is this an informed opinion from someone who knows, or someone kow-towing to the party line as written by BBC engineers (see below...)

 

?There will be no Super 16mm on the HD channel?

Andy Quested, Principal Technologist BBC.

 

And why, Andy? Because your MPEG encoders are poop? That's right, blame film!

 

35mm is allowed for drama btw - its all on BBC webpage.

 

The BBC does not use 35mm for TV drama. It may not specifically forbid it, but the budgets that productions work with preclude it.

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I'm not saying it's inaccurate, but I would like to see the context of this statement.

All the quotes are from the recent "the road to HD" summit at the BBC television center.

let me add - even if we are becoming a mainly digital house and are leaving 35mm, i don´t agree with BBCs strategy - i think its a pretty good idea to ban HDV and lowbandwidth HD formats and start with 1080 hdcam and up, but s16? shall we trash half of the nouvelle vague?

 

And why, Andy? Because your MPEG encoders are poop? That's right, blame film!

and even worse, with a degrainprocess in place -before- the mpeg4 compression lots of theproblem would be solved at once.

 

The BBC does not use 35mm for TV drama. It may not specifically forbid it, but the budgets that productions work with preclude it.

I am really no expert at all for BBCs own production, we are affected in a different way. when we produce or work for a lets say arte-drama or doc, usually its sold later on to the other european broadcasters. so, we always have to check that we fullfill their requirements. the last project which went to BBC (was in 2006, anyhow) had ~15% 35mm footage.

 

besides these already bad decision at bbc, there is another problem below the surface which is even worse.

 

for documentaries, especially historic ones, several european broadcasters now -require- that the ancient b/w filmfootage has to be rescanned in HD. This basicly prohibits the use of archieve, as most houses a la pathe/gaumont don´t have hd/2k scanners and don´t hand out the originals at all. this makes the use of such material highly expensive or even next to impossible, with the consequence - reenactment... holy cow, we are way offtopic now.

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I couldn't really imagine film dying, it's got too much support.

 

As for the BBC, they're all idiots. Until there's new management I think we're stuck with HD.

 

It would be nice, however, if the BBC would hire more BSC members. If we're stuck with a bad format then we can at least have good cinematography.

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but i know exactly what you are talking of, last week we had to deal for another production with a b-camera (hvx200) which was copied to a rather exotic disk, it took almost one full day to get these files out of the storage into the nle and on the HDCAM tapes - for 6 minutes of footage.

 

 

EXACTLY! now you are living in my world.

 

say what you will about film but it is an archive format, the work flow can be simple, and you don't have the need for meta data or creating masters of footage files in post which is a HUGE pain in the ass on a production of any size.

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I couldn't really imagine film dying, it's got too much support.

same here - at least not fast. how goes this w. churchill quote? "reports of my death are highly exagerated"?

 

As for the BBC, they're all idiots. Until there's new management I think we're stuck with HD.

hmmm, i have seen lots of great stuff done by the bbc... arte, canal plus, bbc and ard keep impressing me with their production often.

 

It would be nice, however, if the BBC would hire more BSC members. If we're stuck with a bad format then we can at least have good cinematography.

here i disagree - bad format? 1080p is a great format. red/genesis/d20/35mm/viper/hdcam to 1080p are quite a jump forward, don´t you think? i think the only real mistake is that they don´t solve the problem with s16->mpeg 4 inhouse. or do they have such a ultra low bandwidth on their 1080mpeg4?

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I rock a typewriter...instant hardcopy, it's awesome.

 

Haha! Then you are much better at your first pass than I.

 

Getting a hardcopy on a typewriter usually only happens after a few sliced/taped/glued/stapled edited copies in my attempts. At which point it gets promptly lost followed by tears, thrown ashes and torn rags.

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Haha! Then you are much better at your first pass than I.

 

Getting a hardcopy on a typewriter usually only happens after a few sliced/taped/glued/stapled edited copies in my attempts. At which point it gets promptly lost followed by tears, thrown ashes and torn rags.

Well I don't use it for finished papers, but it's easier for me to bang out ideas in a physical format as opposed to sitting in front of a soft-glowing screen. I like the "instant hardcopy" because I can cross things out, write things in, draw lines around, or whatever. With softcopy, I forget where I've come from. Plus it's a much better aesthetic.

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It would be nice, however, if the BBC would hire more BSC members. If we're stuck with a bad format then we can at least have good cinematography.

 

Matthew,

 

There are plenty of very talented DPs who aren't members of the BSC. I can think of many DPs who may not have the credits to join, but definitely have the ability.

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Matthew,

 

There are plenty of very talented DPs who aren't members of the BSC. I can think of many DPs who may not have the credits to join, but definitely have the ability.

 

Yes, I see your point. I just meant seeing BSC members on their special SPECIAL things.

 

I imagine you're one of those people. :) Sorry if I offended you.

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The end of the WORLD has come!

 

sooo...

 

REPENT SINNERS!!!

 

:)

 

 

Sorry could not help myself. :)

 

It is getting more exiting

after all these months

of online RED Wars episodes.

And now,... IT is out there!...

 

 

So RED did it.

Congrats on that.

 

Now i am eager along the many others

to see what can this new tool deliver.

 

I hope they will post soon some screen grabs from PJ's movie.

 

 

Regards.

 

Igor

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I cannot say I regret my preorder these days... -;)

 

The film will be posted with screengrabs an all at red.com "in a few days" according to Jim Jannard.

My take on that would be "a couple of days after NAB", but that's just me...

 

I'm also very curious if some of the guys here who would like to see "an actual camera" before giving any credit to the idea, have gone and seen it - and have any insight as to how they feel about the project after trying it/seeing footy and workflow @ nab.

 

I am a fanboy and arly adopter, must admit -;), but it would be cool with some input from some "heckler" that have actually visited the booth and tried to collect some insight.

 

Gunleik

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Fran Kuhn, professional lurker.

 

Douglas,

 

As you well know, it's lurk or get back to building shelves, or any of the numerous things my wife's got on my "Things To Do" list.

 

Good luck to RED, BTW. This from a guy who shoots his home movies on an A-Minima! I still remember back in 1986 Jim Jannard coming to some of the motorcycle media with this new sunglass he called Blades. Always seemed like a good guy to me, and I'm glad a motocross guy found his way into the world of cinema.

 

So, Jim, if you want me to drag a few of those REDS (and I don't mean Gennady Moiseyev & Co.) out to the Motocross of Nations in September I'll be happy to put them to the test. Forget those WWI shorts--let's see how they hold up in the mud.

 

Sorry to go off-topic! Back to the discussion. :)

 

Fran

 

FYI: Attached: Ricky Johnson, Team USA/1987 MX des Nations Champion and Oakley-sponsored rider. On a RED bike, no less.

post-7375-1176865851.jpg

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Well I don't use it for finished papers, but it's easier for me to bang out ideas in a physical format as opposed to sitting in front of a soft-glowing screen. I like the "instant hardcopy" because I can cross things out, write things in, draw lines around, or whatever. With softcopy, I forget where I've come from. Plus it's a much better aesthetic.

 

 

Ahhh can't disagree with you there. I can only edit on paper myself. I remember I had a screenwriting class in college which required us to bring a hard copy of our latest draft every week. We would all be lined up in front of the school's printer at 1 in the morning when no one was around printing off our 300 page stack of hand-outs. And then the wonderful task of later collating everyone's notes and feedback scribbles into the document file again. I couldn't stand the thought of having to go back and retype everything again! It would crush my soul!

 

I just wish... somehow one could combine the best of both worlds. Paper and a word processor. I could finally do away with the horrific assemblage of storyboards and sketches splattered around my desk at work.

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Alan Lasky over on CML made one point about the single sensor cameras - he saw it on some of the sky shots in the Peter Jackson short and other people on CML have discussed this an an issue in the past.

 

The sensor can pick up dust very easily, so it's important to establish a sensor cleaning routine, just as on a film shot the gate gets checked for hairs.

Edited by Brian Drysdale
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