Guest kissa Posted October 3, 2004 Share Posted October 3, 2004 Hi! We're planning a ultralow-budget horror comedy feature. We have a DVX100 and the test's i've shot with it look reasonably good. Since we'll be shooting with two cameras I need to get my hands on another camera, too. I've been offered for sale or lease various betasp-cameras for practically nothing and I'd like to hear your comments on this. This will be a television and DVD-only release, but obviously we're after a film-style feel. Post production can be done in 8 or 10-bit uncompressed and I'm just intrigued by the possibility of interlacing betasp material in post instead of 25p dv. So, Betasp with true 16:9 compared to DVX100 with anamorhic attachment??? What do you think? Any comments or experiences? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen Press Posted October 3, 2004 Share Posted October 3, 2004 I hate to say it depends but it depends. What SP camera are you looking at? If you are looking at a decent camera like a 600 16:9 switchable then I'd suggest leaving the DVX100 in the toy box for the "making of" and just use the SP. Why two cameras anyway? It usually means taking longer to set up so nether camera is in the back of the others shot, compromising on both shots as well as lighting and ending up with a less powerful overall daytime soap look. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Phil Rhodes Posted October 3, 2004 Premium Member Share Posted October 3, 2004 Hi, You are making the fundamental mistake of comparing a camera with a tape format. The question is not if you want to shoot Beta SP, it's which camera you will be using. You can get certain DVCAM cameras which are probably preferable to certain Beta SP cameras; you can get BetaSP camera which are probably preferable to those DVCAM cameras. I've always felt that Beta SP can be very good so long as the recording deck is well set up and maintained, the heads are fresh, and you're using decent tape stock. Being analogue there is always the danger zone in which the deck is working well enough for some desperate rental company to let you take it out, particularly if you've asked for a deal, but constantly drops out, glitches, has high noise levels etc. With DV it's either working or it isn't and that's generally very obvious to all concerned. That said, almost any Beta SP camcorder will be sharper than the DVX-100. DVX-100 is a 500-line camera; any broadcast-level SP camera will resolve 750 to 800. Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest kissa Posted October 3, 2004 Share Posted October 3, 2004 "Why two cameras anyway?" -the second camera is for the second unit. We have an extremely tight schedule, so a second unit is a must. The betasp:s I've been looking at are for example DXC-D35WSP and DXC-D35WSP/PVV-3P (PAL). My budget could also strectch for a small set of primes and PRO35 converter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member David Mullen ASC Posted October 3, 2004 Premium Member Share Posted October 3, 2004 Despite the many advantages of a pro video camera design, I don't recommend mixing interlaced-scan video with film-like 24P video -- it's too jarring a difference. You're better off getting another DVX100 for your second unit, or getting an SDX900 for first unit and using the DVX100 for second unit, and shooting 24P all the way. You're talking about pro video camera capturing interlaced-scan, larger CCD with better depth-of-field characteristics, but analog video recording... versus progressive-scan 24P capture, small CCD, digital recording, etc. Too many variables in terms of differences in image textures. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest kissa Posted October 3, 2004 Share Posted October 3, 2004 We will not mix 25P to interlaced video. If I find an alternative to DVX100, pana goes to the making-of guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riku Naskali Posted October 11, 2004 Share Posted October 11, 2004 It really depends... A pro video camera will always be sharper, it's easier to pull focus with, has less depth of field, etc. But the dvx100 makes pretty nice pictures, and you really can't get so good progressive footage by deinterlacing afterwards. At least, that's my experience with deinterlacing in post. I've mainly done it with magic bullet and various editing programs/systems. I'm kinda facing similar decisions, but my alternative to dvx100 is dvcpro. Granted, it makes really sharp pictures and has better color sampling, but I think I'm going for the dvx100 after all. Now I only have to add weight to it, so I can have a change operating with tripod. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Phil Rhodes Posted October 11, 2004 Premium Member Share Posted October 11, 2004 Hi, > my alternative to dvx100 is dvcpro... it... has better color sampling, Not unless it's DVCPRO-50 it doesn't. Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riku Naskali Posted October 12, 2004 Share Posted October 12, 2004 Not unless it's DVCPRO-50 it doesn't. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Yes it is :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam Javor Posted October 12, 2004 Share Posted October 12, 2004 basically what I'm going to be doing is useing a panasonic M-II camera (1/2" 3chip 750 lines)... like an SP camera... but runing the BNC "monitor out" into an analog to firewire converter like a DAC-10 and then into a G4 laptop... so we should end up with uncompressed digital video... the only probablm is the bulk of junk to haul around :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Phil Rhodes Posted October 12, 2004 Premium Member Share Posted October 12, 2004 Hi, No, that's a really bad idea. The monitor out is composite and as such has colour artifacts all over it; the miniDV camera will have no problem looking better than that. Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam Javor Posted October 19, 2004 Share Posted October 19, 2004 $#@&! your right... better to find out now :) hmm... so whats your opinion on MII? specifically the panasonic AU400 deck? as thats my other economical option and then saving up for a good component video converter like a Promax DA-MAX and VCR in the next 6 months...or save up to rent a really good one for a day... :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Phil Rhodes Posted October 19, 2004 Premium Member Share Posted October 19, 2004 Hi, Just shoot it on the miniDV. MII gear is liable to be pretty old now and probably not much better than the DV, and the DV won't drop out. It's not worth the messing about. Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Michael Nash Posted October 20, 2004 Premium Member Share Posted October 20, 2004 I used to use MII ten years ago, and it was a pile of crap -- ten years ago! ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitch Gross Posted October 20, 2004 Share Posted October 20, 2004 I'll never forget the sight of dosens and dosens of MII decks piled up like cordwood on the NBC loading dock in Rockefeller Center. Just a huge mass of bad investment in poor equipment. A failed design from the outset. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam Javor Posted October 20, 2004 Share Posted October 20, 2004 I guess it's a matter of tracking down a studio adapter then... I'm not touching miniDV as I've watched my classmates suffer horrendus "accidents" with the format... no dropouts my ass :) the writer I'm working with just lost an hours worth of footage last weekend and I know a number of people with similar experiences. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Phil Rhodes Posted October 20, 2004 Premium Member Share Posted October 20, 2004 Hi, Play it back on the deck it was recorded on, and avoid those hideous little JVC dual decks. However, in four years of working with the format I've only ever seen one serious problem, with the JVC gear. Actually it does drop out fairly regularly but the error correction usually fixes it to invisibility. At the end of the day, that's what DVCAM is for. Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam Javor Posted October 20, 2004 Share Posted October 20, 2004 I feel like a thread hijacker :/ The problem manifested on the deck used to record it. It played fine the night before and the next day played for five minutes and then went to a blue screen and has done so sence for that tape on every deck it's been put in. She found a work around with other footage but it was for a school project due monday :) Ok... right now to keep my budget around $1000 I'm looking at a camera studio adapter with 32pin CCU out ($350) , a 32pin to 3x BNC cable ($160 for 50 foot but I probably don't want it that long), and the x3 BNC to firewire converter ($150 DAC-2 or better). Is it making better sense or still screwy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Phil Rhodes Posted October 21, 2004 Premium Member Share Posted October 21, 2004 Hi, OK, so when's the original deck get back from repair so you can find out what was wrong with it? Does the first five minutes play back OK on any deck? Or just the one it was shot on? Is there no playback at all, on any deck? Sounds like she just didn't shoot the rest of it - they don't usually go bluescreen unless there's something extremely wrong. Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam Javor Posted October 21, 2004 Share Posted October 21, 2004 The tape will play the first five minutes on every deck and then go to bluescreen on every deck. We know it was shot because it was watched the day prior (I wasn't there). Next moringing she took it to school to dump off the camera to a G4 to edit, plays for 5 minutes and bluescreens, she gets a loaner camera from the school and it does the same thing, and did so with a few other cameras. Until she said it was watched all the way through I was assuming that the tape went though a temperature change while recording causing it to go off track after 5 minutes of being played at room temp... or got moisture in the tape. If she recorded over it, it would go to a blackscreen (ie lens cap) I'm not sure of the fate of the camera but she now is useing a loaner from the school...the origional camera was hers though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Phil Rhodes Posted October 21, 2004 Premium Member Share Posted October 21, 2004 Hi, Really you need to look at the tape with lab instruments to see if there's anything on it, but this sounds enormously to me as if there was nothing on the tape. It'd have to be hugely, enormously out for every deck to not even try and play back some kind of mess. Perhaps the erase head in the camera ended up active, or something - it's a plausible fault. Find out what's wrong with the camera. Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krisztian Tolnay Posted November 16, 2004 Share Posted November 16, 2004 Hi guys, I'm facing similar problems here. So I need some advice. The situation is that I will begin shooting a documentary soon. I have a JVC DV4000U that should be top-line in the consumer area...however it's a piece of crap. And as you know, a decent mini DV like JVC GY-DV500 etc. costs way above $1000 and usually above $2000 if it's in a good shape. I'm thinking about to go for an older but "professional" format and camera. I am (of course) not planning to use it until the end of my life but it could serve as a temporary pro equipment. I'll probably have to record 80-100 hours in "broadcast quality" with accurate colors, sharpness etc. The most important aspect for me is to have a decent master that I can transfer to DV and edit on the computer later on! I've got a good deal on a Panasonic WV-F700 3ccd 2/3 with Canon J15X9.5 15x Zoom Lens, MII AU-410 Docking Back, a Studio Back, a Betacam SP Docking Adapter, case, and 10 New, Sealed MII 20 min. stock, tripod plate, power supply for $1000. What do you think? Thanks, Krix Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Phil Rhodes Posted November 16, 2004 Premium Member Share Posted November 16, 2004 Hi, In this situation I tend to advise people to buy the DV. It's "not professional", whatever that means, although poorer cameras are regularly used professionally. Some of the factors are: - Heads. The betaSP heads will cost a fortune to replace and are liable to be old to begin with. Picture quality falls off as the heads age and you are left with a dilemma of "will it do one more job." DV heads do not suffer from this and the heads in a camera like the GY-DV5000 are probably the same as those in JVC's consumer equipment - and even if they're not, they'll be a hell of a lot cheaper than huge Beta SP heads. - Post. You can post the DV at full quality on a $1000 desktop PC. You could theoretically post the betaSP on the same thing, but you'd have to compress it, and end up with all the faults of DV and all the faults of SP. Uncompressed I/O cards and storage will cost you a fortune and it'll still have analogue faults. - Electronics. Modern cameras have DSP electronics which make for more flexible, if not outright better, pictures. - Viewfinder. They've come on in the last ten years. - Age, maintainability, spare parts, cost of ownership. Old cameras are a pain. Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krisztian Tolnay Posted November 16, 2004 Share Posted November 16, 2004 Yes. You are right. The whole life is easier with DV that is for sure. The only thing what really makes me think that what can I get for $1000? A Sony TRV900...maybe... That's the point. :( Krix Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Phil Rhodes Posted November 16, 2004 Premium Member Share Posted November 16, 2004 Hi, If you're that strapped for cash, what're you going to play it back and edit it on? Get a weekend job, save up, go into debt, whatever. Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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