I would love to be someone's trainee

[Morgan Peline]

Sorry to be blunt but:

 

Wow, aren't we full of ourselves! You sound like you're trying to sell a pyramid scheme.

 

At least he's happy and earning good money doing what he wants to do.

 

Since you ask what I expect, I'd expect by now to be working fairly regularly as a second assistant if it was ever going to happen.

 

You have only yourself to blame for giving up so easily and so soon, if you really wanted to be a 2nd AC you would have tried harder and you would be there by now.

 

I'm not arrogant enough to think I'm worth one of those positions.

 

Ultimately, by the sounds of it, you don't even work at your dreams of being a DP which is why you will never get there. 26, already caught up in the rat race and fatalistic in the prime of your life - how sad is that?

 

You have only yourself to blame if you're not anywhere close to where you want to be - to me it seems really obvious that you never really tried hard to do what you really wanted. Maybe you actually don't really want to be a 2nd AC or a DP?

 

Just because you're not going anywhere doesn't mean it's impossible for others to do so.

Edited November 20, 2004 by MorganPeline

[Greg Gross]

Sometimes in order to achieve a goal you have to do something different

than your desired goal, in order to get where you eventually want to be.

For 5 days a week I'm a professional in the medical field, from 3pm to 11pm.

I alternate weeks at medicine and photography/cinematography. One week I

do nothing but photography/cinematography the next week I do Photography/

cinematography from 7:30am in the morning until about 1pm and then medicine

from 3pm to 11pm. I make about $100,000 a year in the medical job after 33yrs

experience and I won't say here on line what I make with my photography. I

have over 20yrs experience as a professional photographer. I do all of this and

work so hard and so much because I love to. I just offered to shoot a film for a

place to put my sleeping bag(I prefer to sleep on the set for an early start) and

my meals, have'nt heard back yet. What a bunch of wet noses you all are! I've

been shot at,wounded, never thought I'd get back from Vietnam, ranger 1/16th

rangers. You guys come on here talk like you know it all and don't even bother

to sign your posts properly. By the way dpforum1968, I think you should start

Phil at the top so he can teach you! I have always known Phil to know what he's

talking about and I've learned from him. I don't like people messing with the

Britts. Morgan,focus on what you want to do and god***** go do it! Don't worry

about what anybody else says! By the way I forgot to tell you all,that I'm 57yrs

old,I'll be 60 in three yrs. . I want to be a cinematographer. Greg

Edited November 20, 2004 by pd170user

[Morgan Peline]

Greg...good point!

 

A bit of sanity to this debate!

 

Sorry to get riled- I just hate all that negativity - just can't help myself!

 

Another thing to cultivate as a DP: 'Total calmness in all situations.'

[Phil Rhodes]

Hi,

 

Jeez, I'm actually taking the completely upfront and open position that I'm not good enough and still people have a go at me!

 

> Ultimately, by the sounds of it, you don't even work at your dreams of being a

> DP

 

Not since about 2001, no! Who was it who said "If you try and fail, try again. But if you fail again, give up - no use being a bloody fool about it." Oversimplified of course but I think it's relevant. As for going the camera assistant route that's something I'd be completely happy to do if there were any way to do it. The point is that I have slightly less than no idea what a second assistant cameraman does or how to do it, and I lack the hundred thousand dollars that it takes to find out.

 

I'm no more going to be a director of photography than I am going to be an astronaut - and I doubt anyone would find it odd if I said my flying the space shuttle was unlikely, no?

 

Phil

Edited November 20, 2004 by Phil Rhodes

[Guest dpforum1968]

To pd170user: There is no pyramid scheme, I was making a JOKE about Phil's comment that I operate a pyramid scheme :-)

 

Yes Phil is a very sharp guy which makes it even stranger that he counts him self out at 26.

 

Who's knocking the Brits? Not me, I am one. Dual British/Canadian. I was going to come over to the UK and be the DP on Harry Potter, but according to Phil the position has been filled.

 

DC

[Morgan Peline]

Phil,

 

Sorry to keep going on but psychologically you put yourself in a rut before you even really tried:

 

A few years ago I decided that I wanted to change careers. I worked in sales and marketing for IT companies and absolutely hated office work. All the 2nd ACs who I have ever worked for over the last few years have been younger than me. Sometimes it felt strange to be older but doing the trainee job but I still did it because I absolutely wanted to see how real film sets worked.

 

Now, I can get work as a 2nd assistant if I wanted because I have enough experience to do so. Yet you stopped trying to get trainee work and you are only 26. I was 29 when I had my first trainee job on a tv series. Unfortunately, I'm not actually a very good 2nd assistant because that was never my ultimate goal. The real reason I worked on these shoots was to see different types of lighting and film techniques that I hadn't seen already and to see how the professionals did things. Now that I have all this knowledge, I'm moving on because ultimately I want to be a DP.

 

I wanted and so I did. I wanted to shoot films on film, so I found a way and now most of my reel is film. The same reel that got me into the NFTS. I wanted to get onto real film and tv sets to see how things worked so I did. I wanted get into a good film school, so I did. So now I get to play with big cameras and big lights and I have a much better understanding of what to do with them and I have experienced tutors who are willing to answer ALL my questions because they have all shot features. And most likely I will get a scholarship to finance all of this so it will all be free. Yes, I might fail and yes I might never get to shoot features, but at least I'm trying to put myself in the right ball park. And by the looks of it - I usually get there in the end. Where there's a will, there's a way.

 

I'm not bigging myself up; I still have a lot of problems. But the point I'm making is if you think you're washed up at 26 with responsibilities i.e. mortgage, pension, security, blah, blah - then fine that's your choice but don't constantly bring everybody else down with you. Look at David Mullen, he started late as well, look where he is now. (Sorry to talk about you like this David!) But if he had listened to people like you when he decided to change careers, he wouldn't even have gotten past the starting block, let alone get to where he is now regardless of whether it was in the UK or the US.

Edited November 22, 2004 by MorganPeline

[Guest Daniel J. Ashley-Smith]

Phil you would make a great university teacher or something you know. Plus you can then rely on receiving a steady and secure income, which most DP's just don't get.

 

Oh by the way, about the "Brit" thing. I find it kind of weird, America dominates the film industry, but when I watch behind the scenes of a lot of films half the people their are English.

[Annie Wengenroth]

I have to say that if you know exactly what you want to do, you will most likely figure out a way to do it. When I first started making films, I was the typical one-woman crew and it took me about 800 feet of 16mm black and white reversal before I realized that it's okay to admit that you can't multi-task, and SHOULDN'T multi-task because it has a way of compromising your work (tell THAT to the typical American 9-to-5ers!).

 

Instead you should figure out what you want to focus on and find people who you trust and work well with to fill in the blanks for you. On student shoots it's easy to see who naturally falls into what role. I was always the one setting up the lights and camera, deciding on the look of each piece, operating camera, and framing the shots, so it was pretty clear to me that I should pursue cinematography on some level- if only because I really enjoy doing these things. On the flipside, I am NOT an editor or director, and that's okay. I'm also not an animator, which prompted a change in field of study about 70% through school, but that's okay too, because I'm happier now than I was when I was trying to make myself a chicken by sticking feathers up my butt, if you will. (to paraphrase Tyler Durden..)

 

So I don't know how I feel about this thread. I understand some of the people's attitudes in this topic but I don't necessarily agree, or maybe it's more that you're all "right" to a degree. I think it's important not to give up on what you want to do, but perhaps it's more important to be aware of what you DON'T want to do or maybe aren't that good at.

 

It seems weird to say this, but maybe feeling like you've "burned out" at age 26 is a blessing in disguise in that it will free you up to pursue other interests? I don't know. I'm glad I threw down my blue pencil and declared that I suck at traditional animation and hate doing 3d animation and would rather do something else. It ended up changing my life for the better. Similarly, I took a break from making music and DJing to pick up a camera and obviously I'm very glad I made that choice.

 

Ultimately, you just have to bounce your ideas off the people you know and not be afraid to work with others. It's a delicate balance but it is possible. I myself am still finding this balance but if other people can do it, then so can I.

 

So in conclusion, I don't necessarily think that people are meant to only do one thing at a time in their lives but I also don't think spreading yourself thin is the way to go. If you can find a few art forms or trades (or whatever) to "get your chops" in, (meaning, get really good at them!) as one of my sound design professors would say, and if all of these things you do are related in some way, then I think you've got a good deal going.

 

Wow, that was long. I enjoy writing too, can you tell? :-)

 

I hope this was helpful advice for, well, whoever needed it ...

[Guest fstop]

GREAT post, Morgan.

 

I had a really unfortunate week, I'm glad you provided some inspiration! Thanks! :)

[Jon Tubb]

Laura,

 

i graduated on tuesday 16th november from salisbury college although it was run by bournemouth uni.

 

I was in the same position as you although i was willing to fullfil any role to get any experience.

 

Just as i started to think that i would never be lucky enough to get my 'foot in the door', i got a call to work on a film as a camera intern.

 

As you can probably imagine i was over the moon to be involved with any kind of filming, but it wasn't until i had calmed down that the better news was to follow... i was offered the job of camera intern on Terrence Mallick's new film 'The New World' starring Colin Farrell and Christian Bale with Emanuelle 'chivo' Lubezki as DP. I couldn't believe it.

 

I was only supposed to work on one or two days in my hometown of St. Austell in Cornwall but was invited to stay on for the remainder of the UK shoot.

 

I was extremely nervous and quiet for the first day but realised that it didn't help me in the slightest. Everyone i was working with was jolly and liked a laugh (which was good for me).

 

The thing that i couldn't believe the most was how nobody had any qualifications or had done a course in media etc. 4 out of the 5 camera crew had gotten into it because of a family member.

 

the site that was kind enough to give my cv to the production office at Pinewood was www.swscreen.co.uk

i spoke to them on the phone and was astonished at how nice they were so i'd definately recomend them.

 

If you are as lucky as i was then definately make the most out of being on set. I made a lot of friends and contacts that will hopefully consider me again for any future jobs! I believe that everyone can get a chance but it depends on how well you take it.

 

Good luck

 

Jon Tubb (Tubby)

[Guest st-an]

So for two months a rage has been brewing. I am a hard working focus puller in the UK and admire this Phil chap for one thing and one thing only.......the complete poop storm he has created amongst grown men, well done Phil.

 

It took a while (about 3 years) to realise exactly what my passion was but once i knew i went head first into a 6 year trip via free work at camera rental houses, 3 years at film school (or art college) more free work at rental houses cleaning filters and lenses, a mass CV sendout to 300 DOPs,free job after free job on many many many short film to build up my skills and all the while having to work restaurant jobs in order to put food on that cliche ridden table.

 

But slowly things change. Maybe those who want it most will be there in the end as all the others fall by the side of the road. I am 30 by the way. I also encountered every concievable nasty trick life has to offer. Producers running away having not paid expenses, proffesional mistakes (use your imagination) and DOPs using you for free jobs and then throwing you away when the big jobs come in. But life is essentially about learning. I hope if i hit 80 years i will still be learning stuff. My outlook is to be positive every day and this is very hard. But one thing i do is look back on the year i have just had. I look at my CV and see how much it has grown, sometimes only a little, sometimes a lot. But it grows and if someone came up to me and said 'you are gonna work on this feature and that commercial next year' i would say.....'yeah right'

 

Do i make sense.........who knows......i have never written a letter to a forum like this B4 but one thing we all should remember is that we have all been 'laura' at one time in our lives yet its so easy to loose that humanity.

 

My advice to laura is listen to them all and take away those ideas which good for you. Send out hundreds of CVs, apply to the FT2 programme, apply as a junior at ARRI or Movietech or Take 2 or ICE or Panavision or AIM or Optex and on and on and on

 

But dont give up laura if it's a true passion and good luck

 

And Phil..........seek help.....to see such anger and bitterness at your age is a worry.....we have all felt it but some things are best left inside the head of the creator.....YOU.

[Guest dpforum1968]

Classic!!

 

And Phil..........seek help.....

 

DC

[Guest Sarah 407]

ok first off- LAURA - here's a website that might help you out. It's a list of production studios in the US such as Dreamworks, Miramax, etc. Most of them have links to the studio's website which has job and intership listings. There's also email adresses and phone numbers if you'd like to try to reach them personally. It's worth a try! I've been looking into alot of them, but I'm also from the US so I'm not sure how the process would work for you. Either way, I hope this helps a bit.

 

and ANDY- if you're able to help either of us with a cinematography intership or simply a trainee position that would be wonderful. Could you post your email?

[Guest Sarah 407]

www.scriptsales.com/DDStudios.html

 

there you go! (sorry, I actually forgot to add it to my last post!...)

[Phil Rhodes]

Hi,

 

That would be cold calling, though, wouldn't it?

 

We all know what happens if you cold-call people in the film industry. Avoid!

 

Phil

[Laurent Andrieux]

Oh, come on, "negative fill", cold calling can work.

 

It's true that you don't do this after a while, but when you begin, and have nobody in the business, you need to do so. I wasn't into this myself either, when I began (some 20 years ago...) but I know a few people who did - and that surprised me - make could contact this way.

 

The thing is, some DPs like a lot to be called by a young person saying "I love your work" etc... Feel free to call anybody, some of them will be very welcoming.

 

I actually have heard of very famous dps here who answered very nicely to "cold callings" and some ACs seriously began like this. If I had to begin now, I would do this, for sure. Another point is that when you call somebody who tells you "sorry, I can't do anything for you", ask him/her if he/she knows someone who might do, and then you call the second person "from" the 1st one,etc...

 

My first contacts when I began wheren't 100% cold (I was calling "from" somebody) but I had to contact people I had never met before, and I can assure you it helped me a lot. It made me meet other people, gave me ideas, like going to rental houses (that I wouldn't have figured out myself) etc...

 

And if they don't directly give you work, they might give you good advices...

[oscar jimenez]

Has anyone else noticed that "The Little Engine That Could" is going downhill with a clown at the controls?....yes, looks quite dangerous.

 

to add my 10 cets:

I've never quit my dreams, I did never got into film school, I did study advertising and got a degree, I dont write tv commercials, I decided to shoot. at 21 I started as a grip and electrician, no pay until few months later, I moved onto AC ( I earned it actually ) at 26 I was shooting my first "major" thing for advertising on film. I stil worked as an AC until a few years I started shooting my own and directing. I wanted to do that since the day I first got a hand on a C Stand. It took blood, sweat and tears, but I got there. Even now Im willing to be an AC If I see the chance to work with a DP or a Director I might learn new tricks and techniques, I still do it and it's rewarding. Bottom line: Laura, follow your dreams with heart and soul, get started doing whatever might help to break into bussiness, money will come later if you are good at what you do.

Oscar.

[Gilbert]

Hey Phil,

You're sure a depressive person!! Stop feeling sorry for yourself and stop dragging other people to your depressiveness self!!

[Gilbert]

Has anyone else noticed that "The Little Engine That Could" is going downhill with a clown at the controls?....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Actually, it is a happy clown (the DP) coming back home from it's successful journeyl