Original Red Cameras to be Replaced

[Stephen Williams]

Hi All,

 

Red is recalling all the original 100 cameras & is replacing them free of charge. Red is paying the shipping costs both ways.

 

Impressive after sales service.

 

Will camera 88 that sold on Ebay also be replaced? the guarantee is for original owners. As a potential purchaser of a used camera I am interested in the answer to this one.

 

Stephen

[Max Jacoby]

Impressive after sales service.

Did they have a choice? Releasing a product before it is ready can turn out to be quite expensive ;)

[Stephen Williams]

Did they have a choice? Releasing a product before it is ready can turn out to be quite expensive ;)

 

Hi Max,

 

The owners seemed happy enough with the original ones, better than film I heard several times.

 

I am interested to see if the quality of images posted somewhere else improves with the new cameras.

 

Stephen

[Stephen Williams]

Will camera 88 that sold on Ebay also be replaced? the guarantee is for original owners. As a potential purchaser of a used camera I am interested in the answer to this one.

 

Stephen

 

Jim emailed me the following answer:-

 

I cannot seem to post a reply. You can post this from me if you wish.

 

"In this case we will waive the $500 warranty certification charge

(for transferred ownership) and replace #88 at no charge like all the

rest.

 

When the 1st 100 cameras come back to RED, we will update them to

current specs and put them all in the demo/service pool."

 

Jim

[Lars Zemskih]

Stephen, did the cameras arrive to UK rentals though already?

[Mark Williams]

That is superb customer service! Impressive.

[Stephen Williams]

Stephen, did the cameras arrive to UK rentals though already?

 

Hi,

 

I only know of 1 UK camera at present.

 

Stephen

[Stephen Williams]

That is superb customer service! Impressive.

 

Hi,

 

I think the alternative of possibly having some sub par cameras, would be far worse for Red in the long term.

 

Stephen

[Mitch Gross]

I agree that it is excellent service to customers and good business sense for RED. There were enough changes made (CF card reader, lens mount, sensor driver board, probably a bunch of stuff no one knows about) that it is simply easier and more efficient to replace the cameras. So as a pioneer in the first 100 you get a beta=test camera for a few months and then a brand new camera. Very nice indeed.

[Jim Jannard]

Hi,

 

I think the alternative of possibly having some sub par cameras, would be far worse for Red in the long term.

 

Stephen

 

Stephen... Soderbergh shot two movies on RED prototypes and has said he will shoot his next feature starring Matt Damon "all RED". I don't think you can say that the 1st 100 were sub-par. Actually he shot "Guerrilla" on Beta prototypes and "The Argentine" on pre-production REDs.

 

Jim

[Phil Rhodes]

Obviously if there's a problem with them they need to be replaced, fine (and if there isn't a problem with them, why replace them...)

 

But I have a hard time seeing this as a triumph - more a confirmation that the things were rushed out the door to avoid the loss of face associated with a late delivery after making such a big noise prelaunch.

 

Phil

[David Mullen ASC]

All the 35mm single-sensor digital cameras like the Arri-D20, Phantom, Dalsa, have been under continuous refinement since they first came out -- they have never been "finished", which is why they have mostly been for rental-only.

 

I think more costumers have been happier to get their RED's, even unfinished, than to have them delayed. Especially since the RED team has been so diligent about doing the upgrades free of charge, and now even swapping out the early cameras. In the meanwhile, these early customers have had a lot of input into how the camera gets modified.

 

It's just a different model of working than releasing the DVX100, let's say, and then giving all the improvements the costumers demanded in the DVX100B a year later.

 

Having spent a day with many early RED owners at the big LART event testing the cameras, they are all pretty happy about their purchases -- I mean, why not? Almost every problem they run into is getting addressed one way or another, so they will not get penalized for being an early adopter.

 

I also think that the pressure of getting these problems worked out for the owners has accelerated the pace of refinement for the RED compared to the rental-only Arri-D20, for example, so the camera will be stronger for that.

 

Sure, maybe they should have released the original set of cameras in January 2008 instead of September 2007, but I'm not sure if that's worth harping on.

[Jim Jannard]

Obviously if there's a problem with them they need to be replaced, fine (and if there isn't a problem with them, why replace them...)

 

But I have a hard time seeing this as a triumph - more a confirmation that the things were rushed out the door to avoid the loss of face associated with a late delivery after making such a big noise prelaunch.

 

Phil

 

Obviously, you are here to push my buttons (again). We simply improved the cameras... significantly. So we decided to upgrade all of our early customers. Pretty easy. Just because other companies don't do this is no reason to assume anything on your part. You haven't bought a camera. You haven't shot a RED camera. You are not a customer. Our customers seem very happy with the cameras they received, our philosophy and our decisions. Every customer was told in advance that they were early adopters and had the right to wait for delivery. They choose to take delivery. And now they are rewarded with a new camera with many advancements. What is wrong with this again? I forgot.

 

Jim

[Phil Rhodes]

Yes, Jim, obviously I joined the forum anticipating your presence a clear two years before you arrived simply to piss you off. You came here.

 

You're an expert spin doctor, I'll give you that.

 

Phil

[David Mullen ASC]

Jim, Phil complains about a lot of other people's technology too, just that you're the only manufacturer who read them and responds here. The owners of S-Two clearly don't read or care about some of Phil's comments about their product...

 

Two years ago there was a lot of negative posts about Panavision's development of the Genesis too (not necessarily from Phil). Phil and Alan Lasky from Dalsa used to regularly squabble over the resolution of the 4K Bayer sensor, and that particular discussion has just spilled into the RED now that Alan isn't at Dalsa but RED has arrived.

 

We run the gamut here, pro and con and inbetween, which is healthy to some extent... unless it gets out of control. The consistenly negative posters are few but vocal. And I sort of separate people who are merely skeptical from people who are consistently negative. Skeptical people are just cautious until proven otherwise, doesn't mean they can't change their minds over time. The skeptics here outweigh the truly negative types.

 

The situation is naturally flipflopped over at the RED User site, there you have a small but hardcore group that are consistenly positive about everything. I'm not sure that is necessarily any more productive than the opposite end of the spectrum.

[Stephen Williams]

Stephen... Soderbergh shot two movies on RED prototypes and has said he will shoot his next feature starring Matt Damon "all RED". I don't think you can say that the 1st 100 were sub-par. Actually he shot "Guerrilla" on Beta prototypes and "The Argentine" on pre-production REDs.

 

Jim

 

Hi Jim,

 

Ok not sub par, just ever so slightly inferior cameras, but still called RED One.

 

Stephen

[Lance Flores]

All the 35mm single-sensor digital cameras like the Arri-D20, Phantom, Dalsa, have been under continuous refinement since they first came out -- they have never been "finished", which is why they have mostly been for rental-only.

 

I think more costumers have been happier to get their RED's, even unfinished, than to have them delayed. Especially since the RED team has been so diligent about doing the upgrades free of charge, and now even swapping out the early cameras. In the meanwhile, these early customers have had a lot of input into how the camera gets modified.

 

It's just a different model of working than releasing the DVX100, let's say, and then giving all the improvements the costumers demanded in the DVX100B a year later.

 

Having spent a day with many early RED owners at the big LART event testing the cameras, they are all pretty happy about their purchases -- I mean, why not? Almost every problem they run into is getting addressed one way or another, so they will not get penalized for being an early adopter.

 

I also think that the pressure of getting these problems worked out for the owners has accelerated to pace of refinement for the RED compared to the rental-only Arri-D20, for example, so the camera will be stronger for that.

 

Sure, maybe they should have released the original set of cameras in January 2008 instead of September 2007, but I'm not sure if that's worth harping on.

 

Quite agree David. I must say, you are among a few productive contributors to this forum, that makes it worth while coming back. Reflective of the type work you've done. Having worked so long on the bleeding edge of technology I appreciate what Red is attempting to accomplish. Incredible task. They're not there yet, but I'm impressed with their dedication to their customer base. I think they'll be just fine.

[Mitch Gross]

Phil, who says an improvement translates to correcting a problem? It may have been perfectly acceptable before but even better now. Do you seriously think that there is ANY product out there (forget just the film industry) that was not improved over the course of its lifespan? The fact that RED brought back in the first 100 to give all the early adopters the improvements is generous, not something to harp on. And I'm sure that if there was a current RED owner who yelled & screamed that he wanted to leave his camera just the way it was then RED would say fine & dandy, though I can't imagine anyone not wanting an improved product.

[Lance Flores]

Phil, who says an improvement translates to correcting a problem? It may have been perfectly acceptable before but even better now. Do you seriously think that there is ANY product out there (forget just the film industry) that was not improved over the course of its lifespan? The fact that RED brought back in the first 100 to give all the early adopters the improvements is generous, not something to harp on. And I'm sure that if there was a current RED owner who yelled & screamed that he wanted to leave his camera just the way it was then RED would say fine & dandy, though I can't imagine anyone not wanting an improved product.

 

Well said, Mitch. Just shot the improved Phantom HD. I think this upgrading products might just catch on.

[Stephen Williams]

Well said, Mitch. Just shot the improved Phantom HD. I think this upgrading products might just catch on.

 

Hi,

 

The one I shot with in the summer was quite hopeless, pleased it's now usable.

 

Stephen

[Lance Flores]

Hi, The one I shot with in the summer was quite hopeless, pleased it's now usable.

 

Stephen

 

I understand Stephen, that's why it wasn't in our plans for our current project.

[Mitch Gross]

Stephen--

 

The individual camera that you tried this summer was hopeless for sure, but it didn't reflect the standard for Phantom HD cameras even then. Now the cameras are all that much better. Improved MTF, Optical Low Pass Filter, increased Dynamic Range, on and on. Like I said, it did work quite well even back then (yours notwithstanding), but now it's better. That's good all around, right?

 

By the way, RED got a lot of flack for its PL lens mount. The Phantom's PL lens mount also had to be improved as we discovered a tolerance that was slightly off causing some lenses to have trouble mounting. All the lens mounts were replaced at no charge. That IS an example of a "fault" being corrected, but again, it is also an example of a manufacturer taking responsibility and acting to fix the issue. I can't possibly see how this is a bad thing. No one is perfect and some bugs can make it into a product. But if they are addressed, then that is to be lauded.

[Stephen Williams]

Stephen--

 

The individual camera that you tried this summer was hopeless for sure, but it didn't reflect the standard for Phantom HD cameras even then. Now the cameras are all that much better. Improved MTF, Optical Low Pass Filter, increased Dynamic Range, on and on. Like I said, it did work quite well even back then (yours notwithstanding), but now it's better. That's good all around, right?

 

By the way, RED got a lot of flack for its PL lens mount. The Phantom's PL lens mount also had to be improved as we discovered a tolerance that was slightly off causing some lenses to have trouble mounting. All the lens mounts were replaced at no charge. That IS an example of a "fault" being corrected, but again, it is also an example of a manufacturer taking responsibility and acting to fix the issue. I can't possibly see how this is a bad thing. No one is perfect and some bugs can make it into a product. But if they are addressed, then that is to be lauded.

 

Hi Mitch,

 

When a manufacture provides me with a camera & a technician specifically to test with the view to purchase, I expect it to work properly.

 

I drove 350 Miles and spent a day of my time, sorry I expect better. BTW I have not been offered another camera to test.

 

Stephen

[David Mullen ASC]

Just don't let your disappointment cause you to miss out an using an improved camera someday. You have to constantly be open to re-evaluating your opinions on products as they change.

[Stephen Williams]

Just don't let your disappointment cause you to miss out an using an improved camera someday. You have to constantly be open to re-evaluating your opinions on products as they change.

 

Hi David,

 

For sure it won't, I just can't recommend the use of the camera on a project at this time.

 

I am probably going to Paris to check out a used Viper for purchase, I understand the seller also has some Phantoms so I may get another chance to try one then.

 

Stephen