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REDuser ethics


Jaron Berman

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> The idea behind RED was to put a professional tool in the hands of many. To empower the indie shooter

> and next generation film maker.

 

And that's the point you're missing - because putting a professional tool in their hands does not particularly empower them.

"Empower", no.

"Impoverish" yes! ;)

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It sounds like you want to voice a contrary opinion, but I can't find anything in your post that particularly disagrees with what has been said do far.

 

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Well thanks for stating the obvious. Not a contrary opinion however but more along the lines of redressing the balance. The RED has many good points and certainly has a place in film making.

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So, what point are you trying to make, that fits into the scope of this thread?

 

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Perhaps I should ask you the same question.

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Most people here aren't particularly critical of the camera itself, it is what it is. They are however highly critical of how it was and is being marketed.

 

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Yes I agree there has been some home goals from RED However for all that the truth is the Camera is a very good tool.

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By the way, have you got anything other than a script?

 

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Arrogance? Or advice Perhaps you need to think along the line of this thread?

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If not, trust me, the shooting format you use is a very long way down a very long list of obstacles you will have to overcome before you see your project on any sort of screen, large or small.

 

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I disagree The camera is only a small part of making a film. If you want me to tell you what I think is most important I would have to say Script and actors. However none of that will happen without camera and sound.

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"The Red camera is extraordinary. The Redvolution marks the tipping point

of the democratization of filmmaking." Dean Devlin

 

BTW, Dean's new series "Leverage", starring Timothy Hutton, will be shot all RED.

 

Jim

Edited by Jim Jannard
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Jim, have you never heard of the logical fallacy known as the appeal to authority?

Bit harsh? Of course Jim would have cutting edge experts who made this stuff? Why would those who wish to sell it not be enthusiastic? He is after all quoting Dean Devlin? Perhaps your not referring to his last post?

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It is very interesting that this enthusiasm at the highest level is also found at the indie level... but not here.

Not true at all. There has been quite a bit of enthusiasm here. But I think most regular posters here prefer to try things themselves before they proclaim them good or bad. So yes, most people here are already enthusiastic to use the camera and see what it can do, but they won't be enthusiastic about the results until they see them for themselves.

It's interesting that you make a distinction between "the highest level" and "here". There are quite a few very big name DP's (some ASC members), operators, and AC's that post here regularly. Are they not "the highest level"? If not, what is "the highest level"?

Also interesting to note is that almost half of every post on this site is about RED.

That's just patently not true. I'm not sure why you would think it is. There are many other forums on this site besides the Red forum, and many are more active than the Red forum. Comments like that may make some people wonder if other things you say and write about other subjects are exaggerated as well.

As much as Phil and a few others would like to discredit RED as "grotesquely incompetent", that message doesn't seem to be sticking, no matter how hard a few try.

 

Jim

There have been very few posts here with that kind of negativity towards Red. Most people are interested and curious about the camera and haven't made their mind up about it yet.

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Jim, have you never heard of the logical fallacy known as the appeal to authority?

Professor M'Gumbio M'Boto of the All-Nigerian Linguistics, Debating, and Leftover Petroleum Exploration Fund Fund Repatriation Department of the University of Lagos, said there's no such thing:-)

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I should have said half of all the posts in the High Definition Video forums of c.com... my bad.

 

The reference to "not here" was about the enthusiasm, not the "Highest level or indies".

 

This stuff is what is wearing me out.

 

Jim

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Guest justin johnson

I'm really thankful someone posting this topic!! !

 

Last year I lurked at the reduser.net website, just like I've done here. When I finally did start posting on REDuser, really just commenting on observations of others, my posts mysteriously vanished!!! I also noticed some other users posts disappear during heated discussions.

 

The official RED forum "REDuser" is really like Communist China. Any descenting remarks made by the citizenry, and poof! they change or disappear. Enough remarks and poof! You're gone.

 

Interesting that Jim doesn't dispute that these things happen! So much for pride in the American way and free speech. I guess all that racket early on about an American made camera was just B.S. I shouldn't be surprised, the thing says right on it "product of Singapore" and the batteries made in Malta!

 

Jim and his REDuser team, can dish it out but sure can't take your lumps like every other camera and film manufacturer when they are criticized. I guess there wasn't room on the Red bandwagon for Claudio Miranda when he commented that the F23 appeared to have more resolution than the supposed 4K Red. It's unfortunate that Claudio was pressured into taking down his web pages, hmmm... I wonder by whom? It certainly made for entertaining reading.

 

Frankly I'm a little insulted that Jim comes here (and other websites like cinematography.net) and ask everyone to join the bandwagon. I've used the camera (most recent version) along with every other camera around, and was it worse than HDV? No. But I would say well bellow average for professional equipment. Every Panasonic camera has at least 2 stops more dynamic range. I would have felt ripped off if I was suckered in to spending that money.

 

There's a lot of people who love Thrifty Ice Cream, that doesn't make it good Ice Cream. Congratulation are due to Red, the Thrifty Ice Cream of digital cine cameras. Just don't say that it feels cheap on REDuser or you'll end headless in a bamboo shack outside of Peaking!

Edited by justin johnson
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I'm really thankful someone posting this topic!! !

 

Last year I lurked at the reduser.net website, just like I've done here. When I finally did start posting on REDuser, really just commenting on observations of others, my posts mysteriously vanished!!! I also noticed some other users posts disappear during heated discussions.

 

The official RED forum "REDuser" is really like Communist China. Any descenting remarks made by the citizenry, and poof! they change or disappear. Enough remarks and poof! You're gone.

 

Interesting that Jim doesn't dispute that these things happen! So much for pride in the American way and free speech. I guess all that racket early on about an American made camera was just B.S. I shouldn't be surprised, the thing says right on it "product of Singapore" and the batteries made in Malta!

 

Jim and his REDuser team, can dish it out but sure can't take your lumps like every other camera and film manufacturer when they are criticized. I guess there wasn't room on the Red bandwagon for Claudio Miranda when he commented that the F23 appeared to have more resolution than the supposed 4K Red. It's unfortunate that Claudio was pressured into taking down his web pages, hmmm... I wonder by whom? It certainly made for entertaining reading.

 

Frankly I'm a little insulted that Jim comes here (and other websites like cinematography.net) and ask everyone to join the bandwagon. I've used the camera (most recent version) along with every other camera around, and was it worse than HDV? No. But I would say well bellow average for professional equipment. Every Panasonic camera has at least 2 stops more dynamic range. I would have felt ripped off if I was suckered in to spending that money.

 

There's a lot of people who love Thrifty Ice Cream, that doesn't make it good Ice Cream. Congratulation are due to Red, the Thrifty Ice Cream of digital cine cameras. Just don't say that it feels cheap on REDuser or you'll end headless in a bamboo shack outside of Peaking!

 

Pretty twisted. You have to be pretty disrespectful to get the boot from reduser. There are plenty that disagree with what we are doing and post everyday.

 

I came here asking for feedback and advice. Never to "ask anyone to join the bandwagon".

 

As for professional equipment, RED is shooting features. If you can't get good images out of it, maybe we can have someone show you what to do?

 

There was never a representation that RED was American made. Singapore is a great place to make product. Ask Dell, Apple, Cisco, IBM, and HP to name a few.

 

Jim

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As for professional equipment, RED is shooting features.

 

So is the Panasonic HVX200!

 

These are tools. Nothing more folks. For 40k you get a camera able to make a 40k picture. Everyone was pretty mad when they found out the HVX used standard def chips and only pixel shift to make it's HD. And that it was noisy and real soft. But what can you expect from a sub 10k camera? Yea, many felt cheated when it was found out the camera didn't do 'as was advertised'.

 

And now with RED? 4k...really? shooting into the sun? 2 minutes to power on? poorly placed power connection? etc? If I spent $200k on a "real", high end HD camera that did what I knew it could, I'd be damn mad. Don't get mad because marketing told you Pasmina looks, feels, and wears like silk. You paid 10 bucks for it so what do you expect? For the money RED works like it should. Anything beyond that is just marketing that many find didn't work and can't get over. So let those who as some might say "got ripped off" continue doing so. At least you don't have to deal with it. We used to say change the channel if you don't like the program. I know it's hard to walk away from, but it's not the tools that are pissing so many off as much as the way they were marketed. Grass roots marketing combined with old fashioned consumer marketing has a good side and a bad side. The bad side is that those that take things personally believe the world revolves around them and they spend countless hours wasting their lives over something that has no effect on them, or should. Imagine giving up your health because of a camera you have little likes or need for. But we'd rather do that.

 

At the same time, I have complained time and again that RED should not be allowed to have free marketing on all these web sites. It's mostly not constructive other than to give RED more and more outlets for free feedback and with that more and more publicity. Want to learn about RED, go to the RED site. Want to complain do so there. They have a great board with plenty of places to talk all the good and bad about RED. And if they alter your post and remove it, then that should tell you that RED is not a good product. So let it go. If a girl kept telling you she loved you but kept going out with other guys till 5 in the morning, why stay with her? That's what I see many doing here. Why all the other sites not affiliated with RED must have thread after thread complaining about RED really makes the experience simply not that fun and shows the uglier and unhealthy side of people.

 

Here's a secret! Want to hurt Red? Don't post. In marketing we say any PR is good PR. So even though you think that saying some less than stellar truths about RED, peeling the onion back and telling folks the 'truth', in actuality you are helping RED and it's cause. I know that might not make sense and this is not the place to show the advertising science behind why, but you are. I'll say it again. EVERY POST YOU MAKE ABOUT RED, GOOD OR BAD, HELPS THEM TO MARKET THEIR CAMERA. Every post you make here and other places good and bad HELPS RED! Say you tried RED and it sucked actually does far more to help RED sell cameras than hurt it.

 

I would ask folks, if you really want to hurt RED, and 'reveal them for what you think they are', don't respond to this thread or any others like it. Even if you make a post titled "RED SUCKS", "I PISSED ON A RED CAMERA", or "RED, THE LAUGHING JOKE OF HD". All those threads actually help them, not hurt them. Or if you see what you consider a blatant lie in a post and respond; You are NOT bringing down RED, only helping them to market their product free on all these websites whether you say something good or something bad. Try ignoring them outside of the RED site and you will have done more damage than no one buying their camera. Try it, you'll see what I mean.

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You cant seriously compare the HVX200 to the RED? I think Jim should be congratulated on being brave enough to actually want to give consumers a better deal. I think most of us taking this kind of challenge for a cause would be awake all night with worry. There is an awful lot of competition with many who have good financial reason to see the RED fail. Already in my opinion consumers have benefitted. Sony have bought out better featured cameras. Of course REDuser forums will be under attack and given an opportunity taken apart. RED is not an established name. Its not another variation its a product that has to justify itself. This is the time for the competition to make sure RED does not take root. The Camera is a good tool As for the ethics the RED user forum is there to promote RED Go on any brand forum and start questioning the product and you will get over zealous moderators and disgruntled followers who support the team. Here this is a non commercial site so no ones selling anything. Here the RED forum SHOULD be free from being subverted. This is the place to question the RED not on its home ground where really its silly to expect supporters to listen to anything but their own side. How stupid would any of us be to set up a site so those who dont like us. In competition with us or have an axe to grind can sit amongst the converted and annoy everyone. If some feel annoyance RED is wrong then fine air it on a non paid Red forum. Or if you want argue it on the REDuser forum discreetly respectfully and politely bow out if some are getting annoyed. Because after all this is the same as saying send the adobe supporters over to the sony forums and let everyone argue it out until we have a winner. If we are going to question the ethics perhaps we should think about the ethics of all big business. For years consumers have been ripped off by marketing strategies every single loophole and strategy gets played from unwanted insurance to creating different markets and extracting as much from those as possible while holding back on developements and giving them in small steps to constantly have consumers updating The RED is modular for example. There is much to praise with this camera and much to look forward to in its future developement for those wishing to make films at a professional level but reasonable cost.

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You should feel honored, "Wanted" is probably the only movie I will be going to see this year!

 

Well, no, actually I probably will be going to see "Iron Man" as well , since I've only been waiting for that one for about 40 years :lol:

 

I'm confused as according to IMDB Red was only used for effects shots can anyone confirm this? Because it is mighty interesting that Wanted is touted as a red film- after all never heard of star wars being called vistavision film etc etc...

Edited by Keith Mottram
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I'm confused as according to IMDB Red was only used for effects shots can anyone confirm this? Because it is mighty interesting that Wanted is touted as a red film- after all never heard of star wars being called vistavision film etc etc...

 

The RED homepage says "elements of Wanted shot on RED". Wanted was always to be a Panavision film shoot with pre-release beta RED ONEs there for testing by Mitch Amundsen. The REDs (with PV mounts) were used on several scenes, VFX and not. Jon Farhat is the VFX supervisor on Wanted and is preparing his next movie to be shot "all RED". Mitch now has REDs on GI Joe, including a custom crash housing.

 

Some, like Soderbergh, are shooting "all RED". Some are shooting film and RED. In any event, RED seems to be a useful tool in the industry.

 

Jim

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There's a lot of people who love Thrifty Ice Cream, that doesn't make it good Ice Cream. Congratulation are due to Red, the Thrifty Ice Cream of digital cine cameras. Just don't say that it feels cheap on REDuser or you'll end headless in a bamboo shack outside of Peaking!

 

Hey I like Thrifty Ice Cream... :lol:

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Jim, with all due respect (and respect is due people -- he built a ground up camera system!), why do you feel it necessary to respond to this of all threads? There have been some others that discuss some interesting technical questions and some that have gotten some facts messed up. But it seems that it is the rumor mongering and cheap shot posts that draw your attention. I learned long ago to ignore these as much as possible, or at least to respond in a humorous way to make me the "better man."

 

Don't let the silly stuff get to you. You don't run reduser; it is not your forum to defend. Perhaps that should be made clear. Jarred can take care of himself, and he could post here if he felt the need (which I'm sure he doesn't). You're better than this.

 

Buck up brother, just think of all the annoying crap Steve Jobs must let roll off his shoulders on a daily basis.

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If I was Jim I'd do exactly the same thing.

 

When you build something you're proud of, nurture, love, and see it take it's first steps, and then you see probably the biggest nobody losers on the planet shamelessly cut it up - it has to hurt.

 

I don't blame him one bit for being defensive. The things people have been saying while hiding behind their IPs and keyboards would probably evoke fisticuffs in person.

Edited by Adamo P Cultraro
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To expect to please everyone is not realistic; nor is even expecting fairness from everyone. If you think someone is being unreasonable, there is little practical value in trying to reason with them, is there?

 

No one likes disappointing others -- I don't -- but on the other hand, the more of a public figure you are, the more you lose control over what everyone individually thinks about you and how they feel about you, because more people will know you than you know them.

 

Either you accept that you won't win over some people, or you expend a lot of energy butting heads or hitting your head against a wall, but in the end, you still can't please everyone. And the more successful you become, the more some people will find cause to antagonize you. The more people sing your praises, the more likely someone will make an effort to find fault and curse you. It's sort of the yin and yang of the universe...

 

So what if Phil finds fault with the RED -- I can't remember all the arguments I've had with Phil about the faults of FILM. He's often called it a high-risk format, so if something that has been used regularly for 100 years is too risky in his book, then exactly why would you expect him to embrace something new and relatively untested like the RED?

 

As for Max, he's a purist -- he doesn't like digital, he doesn't like D.I.'s, he doesn't like digital projection. He likes film printed to film. He doesn't have any agenda against the RED anymore than he does against an F900 or Viper.

 

This is a general cinematography website and thus there are some people here who are not necessarily enamored of any digital technology, unlike at a video users website, where you can always expect to find some people violently opposed to film. All the DV sites have their share of "film is dead" believers. I've wasted many an hour trying to convince them otherwise.

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If I was Jim I'd do exactly the same thing.

 

When you build something you're proud of, nurture, love, and see it take it's first steps, and then you see probably the biggest nobody losers on the planet shamelessly cut it up - it has to hurt.

 

Ridiculous. "biggest nobody losers" sounds like you are describing the redhead fanboys.

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Pretty twisted. You have to be pretty disrespectful to get the boot from reduser. There are plenty that disagree with what we are doing and post everyday.

 

I came here asking for feedback and advice. Never to "ask anyone to join the bandwagon".

 

As for professional equipment, RED is shooting features. If you can't get good images out of it, maybe we can have someone show you what to do?

 

There was never a representation that RED was American made. Singapore is a great place to make product. Ask Dell, Apple, Cisco, IBM, and HP to name a few.

 

Jim

 

Well even though I wasn't booted from reduser, plenty of others were. Why would anyone want to keep posting when the effort is wasted?

 

I disagree about the the bandwagon. Seems like the inference in the Red pitch is "step right up and use the same camera that Peter Jackson once used."

 

the representation that RED was built in the USA was made to me in person at NAB. I was told "Orange County". Sounds like someone was misinformed.

 

By Singapore being "great" do you really mean "cheap" place to make a product? The free trade agreement helped cement inequity for factory workers, and they're stuck. Singapore is well known for their slave/sweatshop working conditions both onshore, and with wholly controlled offshore factories 7-day weeks 16-18 hours a day, no holidays and no vacations ever. No corporation ever wants to be the first, but then as soon as there are a few large corporations to point to......well than darn, it must be alright for everyone else. Singapore is also a popular place with Wal-Mart.

 

I highly recommend seeing the Frontline episode about Wal-Mart, it explains how no one wants to be first to exploit a territory, but as soon as they can point to Dell, Nike and Levi's now it's safe.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/walmart/

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I never joined the reduser forum because in my opinion the idea that this camera competes or is better than film is a non starter and I expect thats what I would have been. I didnt expect to join and be able to put my points across and last for very long and the same would apply to any products home turf. The funny thing is how come so many didnt see this as obvious?

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