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REDuser ethics


Jaron Berman

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I never joined the reduser forum because in my opinion the idea that this camera competes or is better than film is a non starter and I expect thats what I would have been. I didnt expect to join and be able to put my points across and last for very long and the same would apply to any products home turf. The funny thing is how come so many didnt see this as obvious?

The strange thing is that Jim Jannard has on more than occasion stated that he never intended the RED to be a replacement for 35mm film, more that it was going to be the best alternative.

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The strange thing is that Jim Jannard has on more than occasion stated that he never intended the RED to be a replacement for 35mm film, more that it was going to be the best alternative.

The strange thing is I never said he did. And certainly Jim cant be responsible for what everyone else says either.

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As for Max, he's a purist -- he doesn't like digital, he doesn't like D.I.'s, he doesn't like digital projection. He likes film printed to film. He doesn't have any agenda against the RED anymore than he does against an F900 or Viper.

Just for the record, although I am not a fan of DIs I think that they have gotten much better recently. Personally I still wouldn't do a 2K DI, but if I had the possibility of doing a 4K DI (and thereby skip IN/IP step) I would look seriously into the matter.

 

As for digital projection, it does have its advantages (it certainly looks sharper than a 2K DI filmout), but there are still issues with it (you can see pixels, the contrast is not very good). I'll take an anamorphic film, finished photochemically over 2K projection any time.

 

Current digital cameras also don't convince me yet. I value my skintones, like my highlights to blow out gracefully and love the texture that grain provides. To me digital cameras look too harsh, nothing like the dreamlike quality of film. Film fits my view of the world and goes well with my aesthetical approach to filmmaking. Unlike cinematographers who work a lot and have to use different tools, I am a director who makes a film every 2-3 years. Luckily I am in a position where I can afford to shoot on any format available, so I can chose the format which I like best, instead of having to settle for the only one that is affordable.

 

I also realize that digital technology is constantly improving, so don't take the above positions as absolutes. They reflect my opinion based on the currently available technologies and are likely to change as technology changes.

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The strange thing is I never said he did. And certainly Jim cant be responsible for what everyone else says either.

No, no, I never said YOU did.

I was just pointing out that REDuser is fair crawling with "Film is Dead" wannabes who keep making posts praising JJ for his film-killing "invention" when he's never made any such claim himself.

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The film look is in my opinion far far superior to digital for all the reasons Max stated and more

You've only got to look at prime-time programming schedules to work that out.

 

I notice that all of Bryan Singer's projects since Superman Returns have been done on film.

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You've only got to look at prime-time programming schedules to work that out.

 

I notice that all of Bryan Singer's projects since Superman Returns have been done on film.

 

Good observation.

 

Carl Im going to have to make a point of reading your posts far more carefully! Often I can see a different meaning to the intended one.

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Okay, here's my (oops!) rather long-winded take on it...

 

I have been pretty shocked (and disappointed) by the culture being generated on the REDUser forum--though I wouldn't necessarily say it's any one person's (or company's) doing. Hard to say, given the complexity of communication dynamics.

 

Certainly many REDUser posters are extremely protective of Mr. Jannard and waste no opportunity to lavish incredibly personal, gracious praise on his every pronouncement--but they're also people who've been waiting a long time for an amazing tool and are, perhaps understandably, excited about it, even if over-invested in the idea that it will put the grail of good filmmaking in their hands.

 

The quality of responses is frequently knee-jerk, reactionary and grossly defensive. I'm in the unfortunate position of not really having much to offer that forum (or this one) right now as I transition from a vfx background and more recently still photography and fine art, so mostly I just scan RedUser for interesting info as I wait for my order to come up....

 

However, one time I did post that I was surprised at the cost of peripheral accessories like handles, base plates, etc. Apparently I didn't bow deeply enough or kiss *ss with quite enough suction, because Jim Jannard and Jarred Land, among others, were outraged that such a question should even be broached, were clearly personally offended and stated that since I had "obviously" never overseen the design and machining of metal parts I had nothing to say on the topic. (As if this is necessary to judge that the pricing of such accessories is where the "democratization of film" breaks down.)

 

Land even made what was either a not-so-veiled physical threat or just particularly unfortunate frat-boy parlance in threatening to open up a "can of whoopass" on me. Such bullying responses on REDUser are, unfortunately, not uncommon. Maybe I didn't make my initial post as delicately as I should have, but the firestorm it elicited was ridiculously disproportionate. I abandoned the thread until I went back a few weeks later, curious to see how bad it had gotten. Yep! Page after page of excoriating remarks and even more bullying from Jannard and Land...

 

I must say, however, that while my remarks obviously deeply offended them, the posts were never in any way edited or censored. I may not like their tone or their personality at all, but the RED team has given me little reason to question their integrity. And there are many, far more inflammatory remarks left on those forums by very cynical people, indeed, which remain unaltered and uncensored, for what it's worth.

 

I tend to edit and re-edit posts before submitting them so it didn't help that some of my posts on the thread showed up way out of sequence, making it look as if I were disputing factual statements, rather than raising questions, but nevertheless I found the response set of these people to be so hopelessly defensive, quick to judge and childishly escalatory that i seriously considered canceling my reservation. You see, I want the girl--just not her dysfunctional family.

 

As it is now, I'm still looking forward to getting the camera and working with it, but I am not at all enthusiastic about the culture surrounding it, which is unfortunate. I did, at least, learn that an unprecedented level of politesse will be necessary to elicit useful responses on that forum...

 

I think the camera will be a good tool and I hope it will help me transition into a new career, but I see the culture surrounding the camera--at least SO FAR--as a negative. It has also reduced my enthusiasm and respect for the company and the people behind it.

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Okay, here's my (oops!) rather long-winded take on it...

 

I have been pretty shocked (and disappointed) by the culture being generated on the REDUser forum--though I wouldn't necessarily say it's any one person's (or company's) doing. Hard to say, given the complexity of communication dynamics.

 

Certainly many REDUser posters are extremely protective of Mr. Jannard and waste no opportunity to lavish incredibly personal, gracious praise on his every pronouncement--but they're also people who've been waiting a long time for an amazing tool and are, perhaps understandably, excited about it, even if over-invested in the idea that it will put the grail of good filmmaking in their hands.

 

The quality of responses is frequently knee-jerk, reactionary and grossly defensive. I'm in the unfortunate position of not really having much to offer that forum (or this one) right now as I transition from a vfx background and more recently still photography and fine art, so mostly I just scan RedUser for interesting info as I wait for my order to come up....

 

However, one time I did post that I was surprised at the cost of peripheral accessories like handles, base plates, etc. Apparently I didn't bow deeply enough or kiss *ss with quite enough suction, because Jim Jannard and Jarred Land, among others, were outraged that such a question should even be broached, were clearly personally offended and stated that since I had "obviously" never overseen the design and machining of metal parts I had nothing to say on the topic. (As if this is necessary to judge that the pricing of such accessories is where the "democratization of film" breaks down.)

 

Land even made what was either a not-so-veiled physical threat or just particularly unfortunate frat-boy parlance in threatening to open up a "can of whoopass" on me. Such bullying responses on REDUser are, unfortunately, not uncommon. Maybe I didn't make my initial post as delicately as I should have, but the firestorm it elicited was ridiculously disproportionate. I abandoned the thread until I went back a few weeks later, curious to see how bad it had gotten. Yep! Page after page of excoriating remarks and even more bullying from Jannard and Land...

 

I must say, however, that while my remarks obviously deeply offended them, the posts were never in any way edited or censored. I may not like their tone or their personality at all, but the RED team has given me little reason to question their integrity. And there are many, far more inflammatory remarks left on those forums by very cynical people, indeed, which remain unaltered and uncensored, for what it's worth.

 

I tend to edit and re-edit posts before submitting them so it didn't help that some of my posts on the thread showed up way out of sequence, making it look as if I were disputing factual statements, rather than raising questions, but nevertheless I found the response set of these people to be so hopelessly defensive, quick to judge and childishly escalatory that i seriously considered canceling my reservation. You see, I want the girl--just not her dysfunctional family.

 

As it is now, I'm still looking forward to getting the camera and working with it, but I am not at all enthusiastic about the culture surrounding it, which is unfortunate. I did, at least, learn that an unprecedented level of politesse will be necessary to elicit useful responses on that forum...

 

I think the camera will be a good tool and I hope it will help me transition into a new career, but I see the culture surrounding the camera--at least SO FAR--as a negative. It has also reduced my enthusiasm and respect for the company and the people behind it.

 

In my opinion and testing the REd camera is good and getting better. Jannard is a businessman first, camera maker second. JarRed Land is extremely obnoxious and whose opinion on anything technical or accessory purchasing I disregard completely. The mounting accessories are not good and should be avoided no matter what he says. Go with the element technica stuff which means you might have to wait for them to roll them out. But avoid the production pack accessories especially the red base plate, dovetail and handles.Trust me you will return them and with a 30% restock fee you will just be wasting money You might have to get the red cage though if you're getting the redrive as there doesn't seem to be any alternative for mounting it.

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In my opinion and testing the REd camera is good and getting better. Jannard is a businessman first, camera maker second. JarRed Land is extremely obnoxious and whose opinion on anything technical or accessory purchasing I disregard completely. The mounting accessories are not good and should be avoided no matter what he says. Go with the element technica stuff which means you might have to wait for them to roll them out. But avoid the production pack accessories especially the red base plate, dovetail and handles.Trust me you will return them and with a 30% restock fee you will just be wasting money You might have to get the red cage though if you're getting the redrive as there doesn't seem to be any alternative for mounting it.

 

Reading through the REDuser threads, often the most interesting points are being made by the more hard nosed characters. They often give both the positive and the negative, which is much more helpful when making judgements.

 

I got the impression that Sim Video were working on a mount for the RED drive. Their accessories also look interesting.

 

The post workflow seems to be an issue at the moment and would need careful planning, since most post houses aren't set up to handle RED. Also, the RED software isn't fully developed yet.

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Just for the record, although I am not a fan of DIs I think that they have gotten much better recently. Personally I still wouldn't do a 2K DI, but if I had the possibility of doing a 4K DI (and thereby skip IN/IP step) I would look seriously into the matter.

 

As for digital projection, it does have its advantages (it certainly looks sharper than a 2K DI filmout), but there are still issues with it (you can see pixels, the contrast is not very good). I'll take an anamorphic film, finished photochemically over 2K projection any time.

 

Current digital cameras also don't convince me yet. I value my skintones, like my highlights to blow out gracefully and love the texture that grain provides. To me digital cameras look too harsh, nothing like the dreamlike quality of film. Film fits my view of the world and goes well with my aesthetical approach to filmmaking. Unlike cinematographers who work a lot and have to use different tools, I am a director who makes a film every 2-3 years. Luckily I am in a position where I can afford to shoot on any format available, so I can chose the format which I like best, instead of having to settle for the only one that is affordable.

 

I also realize that digital technology is constantly improving, so don't take the above positions as absolutes. They reflect my opinion based on the currently available technologies and are likely to change as technology changes.

And of course digital is not the only technology progressing, with new filmstocks, new film print stocks, better DI systems, all coming into play at an ever increasingly rapid pace.

 

I'm with you in that for the work I do, I'm getting the results I want with film, rather than digital. I'm not against products like RED, but I have this absolute dislike of marketing and sales hype, especially poorly executed sales hype by a rabid fanbase. Let the product stand on it's own, and guess what, it does stand on it's own as a rather good product. I'm already in negotiations with a shoot plotting on using it for the majority of the work (as the gaffer mind you, but work is work). But I've had long talks with the DP, who is well aware of it's issues, and chose it for the asthetic it does produce. I think David put it best when he said something to the effect that these HD cameras are more akin to a new emultion, a way to get a certain look you might want.

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Jim, with all due respect (and respect is due people -- he built a ground up camera system!), why do you feel it necessary to respond to this of all threads? There have been some others that discuss some interesting technical questions and some that have gotten some facts messed up. But it seems that it is the rumor mongering and cheap shot posts that draw your attention. I learned long ago to ignore these as much as possible, or at least to respond in a humorous way to make me the "better man."

 

Don't let the silly stuff get to you. You don't run reduser; it is not your forum to defend. Perhaps that should be made clear. Jarred can take care of himself, and he could post here if he felt the need (which I'm sure he doesn't). You're better than this.

 

Buck up brother, just think of all the annoying crap Steve Jobs must let roll off his shoulders on a daily basis.

 

Jim and Mitch

Could not agree more.

Having a rare a free morning I am sipping coffee reading through this. Clearly a lot of people on this forum have a lot of time on their hands...

Jim Jannard has spent a huge amount of money and courage developing this camera. I think respect is due. Anyone who calls the RED project a failure should look in the mirror.

Dewald Aukema SASC

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The temptation to respond started almost two years ago. I guess I just got lost in the quest to convince the hardest nuts (no disrespect intended) RED was not a scam. And I got very frustrated somewhere along the way. My bad.

 

I've learned my lesson (finally-hopefully). Phil, Max, Evangelos and others will always post the contrarian viewpoint. God love 'em. I'll try harder to look at the light side of what they post. I expect them to continue to push my buttons. That's what they do. But finally, what we started only two years ago is taking hold.

 

We are shooting features. Many of them. More everyday. So their attempt to prove that we "don't resolve enough, don't have enough dynamic range, the cameras overheat, whatever..." just doesn't stick. We are now nearing 4000 cameras sold. Most of the new orders are coming from inside the industry after they have thoroughly tested the camera... many against film, F23, etc.

 

Phil wondered why I listen to him. I listen to everyone. Maybe that's my biggest problem. I'll work on that.

 

I'm going to refrain from dispelling every half-truth, every false test, and let our camera speak for itself by its use in the industry. It is not film. And it certainly is not perfect. But it is being used.

 

This camera is a labor of love for me. I didn't do it to get rich. I did it to add a useful tool to the industry and hopefully poke some life into the companies that were sitting back and leaking out features only when they had to. Being a labor of love, there is no question that I take this personally... up to now, too personally here.

 

We are a garage operation, two years old. We will never be done in the quest to make our program better. It is better today than a month ago. Better still tomorrow...

 

Let the trashing begin. This time... I'll smile. I think.

 

My best,

 

Jim

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The words of the great Rodney King come to mind, "Can't we just all get along?" Red's got a functional camera, seems to get more functional all the time, I suggested to Phil that he might want to start sourcing parts and build his own camera if he feels so passionate about it. Jim seems to have been a bit humbled by the whole process. Maybe a little peaceful discourse about the red and this type of camera in general would be nice here, hmmmm...

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The words of the great Rodney King come to mind, "Can't we just all get along?" Red's got a functional camera, seems to get more functional all the time, I suggested to Phil that he might want to start sourcing parts and build his own camera if he feels so passionate about it. Jim seems to have been a bit humbled by the whole process. Maybe a little peaceful discourse about the red and this type of camera in general would be nice here, hmmmm...

 

It would be great if we could all just offer constructive criticism for the Red and other products.

 

It does no good to bash products, even if they are really bad. Manufacturers will listen and take objective criticism much more seriously.

 

Even if you don't buy a Red it is great because they are pushing other manufacturers to keep up or surpass them. :rolleyes:

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We are shooting features. Many of them. More everyday. So their attempt to prove that we "don't resolve enough, don't have enough dynamic range, the cameras overheat, whatever..." just doesn't stick.

My best,

 

Jim

The fact that people are shooting features on Red, or any other camera for that matter, doesn't really prove or dis-prove anything about the camera itself or the image it produces, although many people believe it does. It may prove that price, marketing, and any number of other factors have something to do with it. People have been shooting features on prosumer cameras like the XL1 for years, but that doesn't prove that those cameras produce the best image possible. That's not to say that Red isn't a good camera, or doesn't produce a good image. I haven't worked with one yet and haven't seen a feature projected yet that was shot on the Red.

If everyone always worked with the best format possible wouldn't we all be shooting 65mm all the time?

I think what often happens is people think, "Is the image we're getting 'good enough' in relation to the money we're spending?" My point is that economics are an important factor when choosing a camera and format, and it is, and is going to continue to be, a factor in relation to the Red camera.

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This camera is a labor of love for me. I didn't do it to get rich. I did it to add a useful tool to the industry and hopefully poke some life into the companies that were sitting back and leaking out features only when they had to. Being a labor of love, there is no question that I take this personally... up to now, too personally here.

 

We are a garage operation, two years old. We will never be done in the quest to make our program better. It is better today than a month ago. Better still tomorrow...

 

My best,

 

Jim

 

Honestly this words coming from the heart makes more good, than all the discussions that Jim can engage in with no "winners" in any side.

 

I respect when a man speaks from the heart and of love.

 

Jim was already rich when he started the Red camera project. And I believe in his words, because he has always been passionate with photography and video.

 

He already said that his camera is not perfect, but which one is perfect anyways?

 

I think that Jim deserves our respect for what he's done already. If all of us instead of endlessly criticizing any product, would start making one new (like Jim did), or improve an already one made, this world would be different.

 

One thing is constructive criticism to improve something, and other much different hate towards somebody or something.

 

I really wish the best success to anyone that starts any project out of love and passion for something that he really LOVES.

 

Keep up the good work Jim. What you've done, nobody will take from you ever. It will echo in eternity!

 

Cesar Rubio.

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The fact that people are shooting features on Red, or any other camera for that matter, doesn't really prove or dis-prove anything about the camera itself or the image it produces, although many people believe it does.

 

This is an excellent point.

 

 

Why is it that the redheads think that the studios are suddenly going to change the way they make movies because a few people experiment with something new? Has Soderberg ever met a camera he didn't like......... HELLLO, FULL FRONTAL!

 

My friend told me about a test with the Red and a Canon XLH1. Canon is under $10,000! Canon with the Canon lens and the Red was shot with the Red zoomlens. He says the Canon looked equally as sharp and has more of dynamic range. The XLH1 is about 7-8 stops, red claims 11! some body is lying about the numbers and it should be easy to find out.

 

Am I the only one who remembers all the others u---g---l---y movies that were supposed to bring a "new era" of digital filmmaking????? 28-Days Later, and Pieces of April. HAHA!

 

Even high end cameras like Viper. Wasn't that supposed to bring along a "revolution" ?? There's probably more movies, but I can name only Zodiac, Collateral and Miami Vice, that shot with Viper and it's been around probably 6years now. Even if it is old, Zodiac still looks better than everything Ive ever seen shot with the red.

 

 

Land even made what was either a not-so-veiled physical threat or just particularly unfortunate frat-boy parlance in threatening to open up a "can of whoopass" on me. Such bullying responses on REDUser are, unfortunately, not uncommon.

 

The vile bullying of those expressing contrary opinions on the Reduser site is so out of hand it's laughable. Look at poor Claudio Miranda, bullied into taking down his very well conducted Red/F23 camera test, because he posted what others are discovering, poor Red performance. After more people start posting their test results online maybe he will just say hell with them and put his great website back online

 

Has anyone else noticed that the people posting undieing love for the red, w--o--r--k for R-E-D or sound like a film student? If they are not film students, they sound exactly like the ones I went to school with in Florida.

 

jj

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> The fact that people are shooting features on Red, or any other camera for that

> matter, doesn't really prove or dis-prove anything about the camera itself or the image

> it produces

 

Quite. This is a logical fallacy known as an appeal to authority. This, while it's actually the way much of the film industry is run (which may be why the majority of films suck) isn't actually a valid argument.

 

Phil

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My friend told me about a test with the Red and a Canon XLH1...He says the Canon looked equally as sharp

 

 

OK, being nice, I'll admit the possibility of some happenings with the lens, or focus issue, or some other fluke or halucinagen that messed with your friend's test. Barring that, if you'd had a chance to see the RED footage in person, I'm sure you'd agree it's absurd to suggest that a functional RED camera isn't noticeably sharper than a Canon XLH1. You can debate dynamic range and noise and ergonomics and I'm happy to just watch the fur fly, but anyone without coke-bottle glasses just has to look at the RED footage to know there is a night-and-day difference in detail verses a Canon XLH1. No test, scope, or chart neccessary.

 

This is the sort of thing that really chaps Jim's hide because it's not debatable, it's demonstrably false.

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Some people can't see the difference between a sharp image and a sharpened image...

 

I can't tell which one you're implying is sharpened, the RED or the XL1H?

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