At last, A SOLUTION TO JITTERINESS

[Terry Mester]

At last, A SOLUTION TO JITTERINESS

 

After thoroughly scrutinizing how the Super8 Camera and Cartridge operate, I have determined

the only possible cause of jitteriness. Contrary to popular belief, it is not related to the Cartridge.

It is possible for stiff Film in the Cartridge to cause some problems -- in particular jamming,

but not the general problem with jitteriness. Very simply, the cause of jitteriness is the Camera's

Clutch. In a Movie Camera, the Take-up Reel / Spool regularly runs out of slack Film as

it "takes up" the used Film coming down from the Film Gate. Every time the Take-up Spool in

the Super8 Cartridge runs out of slack Film, the Clutch on the Camera turning the Cartridge Clutch

has to slip until more Film is pushed down by the Film Gate's Sprocket Arm / Claw. However,

if the Clutch slippage is too tight, the Film will be tugged by the Spool -- thus pulling the Film

in the Film Gate and causing a jittery picture. The Take-up Spool is only supposed to wind

up the Film as it enters the Take-up Chamber. It is the Sprocket Arm which is supposed to

move the Film through the Cartridge -- one Frame at a time. In addition to jitteriness, a tight

Clutch will also put strain on the Camera's Motor causing it to slow down -- thus screwing up

the Film timing! A tight Clutch will also put a strain on the Camera's Gears which can cause damage.

 

It is very easy to test the slippage strength of the Camera Clutch. You test it with the Camera

on and the Cartridge Chamber Door open. Just stop the Clutch with your finger as it turns,

and note how much force is required to stop it from turning. It should slip with only a little

bit more force than is required to turn the Cartridge's Clutch. In order to appreciate the small

force required to turn the Cartridge Clutch, use your baby finger to turn one of the two

blades on the Clutch counter-clockwise a few turns and then clockwise. Only do this on a

used or partly-used Cartridge -- not a new one! You will quickly feel when the slack Film

runs out, and thus easily determine how little force is required to turn the Cartridge Clutch

before the Camera Clutch needs to slip. It's a small amount of force.

 

The pictures below show the front, side and back views of two types of Camera

Clutches from an Argus and Sankyo.

 

Argus Clutch

The Clutch assembly consists of a Clutch & Shaft, a Gear, a Spring, a Washer

and a Locking Ring. The Ring slips into the groove on the Shaft which holds the Washer

in place. The Spring applies pressure between the Gear and Washer which causes the Shaft to

turn with the Gear. The point of slippage for the Clutch is at the Washer. The length of

the Spring is what determines how tight the Clutch is before slipping. If this Spring applies too

much pressure you thus suffer jitteriness. The Spring you see in the center view picture is

less than one-half of its original length! The Clutch on this Camera was originally

way way too tight! It now slips properly. With the cover off of the Camera, you can test the

Clutch's slippage strength as mentioned above by holding the Clutch with your finger. With the

Clutch stopped, take a close look at the Gear. The Gear must not slow down whatsoever!

If the Gear's speed remains the same when you stop the Clutch, then you know the Clutch is

slipping properly. If it slows down the Clutch is too tight.

 

If the Clutch is too tight, then you need to shorten the length of the Spring. The lower picture

shows how to do this with a pair of Needle Nose Pliers. Just grab the Spring right near the

bottom, and bend it down. Keep doing this until the Spring is reduced to the desired length.

You will need to re-install and test the Clutch a few times with differing lengths of the Spring

in order to determine when the Spring is the proper length, and the Clutch slips properly. You

remove the Washer and Spring by pushing down on the Washer, and pulling the Locking Ring

out with Pliers. You do the reverse for re-installing it.

 

 

 

 

Use Pliers to bend the Spring down

[Terry Mester]

Sankyo Clutch

The Sankyo Clutch is a contained assembly consisting of the Clutch and a hollow Shaft which is connected to the White Disc at the back. It fits over a fixed Shaft on the Camera, and is held in place with a Locking Washer. The Black Gear in the center is turned by a Drive Gear on the Camera. There is a Cross "+" Spring which applies pressure between the Gear and the Disc, and this is supposed to slip when the Clutch stops turning from insufficient slack Film. The Clutch on this Camera was also way way too tight! To loosen it I simply bent down the four arms of the Cross "+" Spring with a small Screw Driver. I made the mistake of adding lubricating oil inside the assembly -- do not repeat this mistake as I couldn't clean the oil out! This oil made the Clutch too loose. You can see in the back picture a short piece of Tooth Pick which I inserted inside to stiffen it up. This Clutch now works perfectly

which I can determine both by the Gear speed remaining the same when I stop the Clutch and

by the Indicator Light in the Camera's Viewfinder. Down below is a picture of the base on the

Camera for the Clutch which shows a Cotter Pin Switch on the bottom edge. The four knobs

on the White Disc close and open the Switch which turns the Cartridge Indicator Light on and off. So, when the Clutch and Disc stop turning when the Film runs out in the Cartridge, the Light

stops flashing.

 

You must also verify that the Clutch is not tugging on the Film by looking at the end of the Film in a used Cartridge. The end of the Film should not advance after the last Sprocket Hole has been pushed down by the Sprocket Arm. There should be about 5 Sprocket Holes of Film left in the Cartridge's Film Gate after the last Hole has advanced. If the Film at the end has advanced past the last Sprocket Hole, then this means that the Clutch is pulling the Film down, and it's too tight!

 

 

 

 

Cotter Pin Switch for Indicator Light

 

 

I can verify that as long as the Clutch in these Super8 Cameras is not too tight, these Cameras should never wear out. The only component on the Camera that could potentially wear out is the Brushes on the Electric Motor, but you'll never use it enough to wear out the Brushes. So little force is required to advance the Film through the Cartridge that there is nothing to cause these Cameras to wear out except a tight Clutch which will put a strain on all the Gears. This is why the plastic Gears in some Cameras wear out. Even with a cheap Camera, if the Clutch slips properly you shouldn't suffer jitteriness. It's very unfortunate that the Camera Manufacturers weren't more attentive to calibrating the Camera's Clutch properly. Jitteriness is probably a significant reason why many Super8 users quit using this format. You will also find the Camera's timing to be very consistent with a properly slipping Clutch. With this problem solved I hope that many former users will come back.

[Jim Carlile]

You're right. Good work-- this idea is just starting to get out there. It's a big myth that the cartridges are responsible for jitter-- though they can develop problems. The fault is almost always in the camera.

 

Even though it seems like it, the rotating clutch does not drive the film in the cartridge, it's the claw that does most of the transport work. The clutch just sets up the cartridge to take up the slack.

 

Years ago I sent a Nizo to Germany for repair by a place called Agitta. They faxed me back a detailed estimate, with something they paid special attention to, that they called "friction wind" in translation. But that's what it was, it was a precise adjustment of what we call the slip clutch. The factory repair people had special jigs and test equipment for this measurement. It's vital.

 

You should put this on the super 8 wiki.

[Matthew Buick]

Wow! When I used one of my Pro8mm EXR rolls the film jittered quite markedly at the start and end of the telecine DVD, not to mention 90% of the film being to dark and murky to be legible, it's a shame because the roll undoubtedly contained my finest cinematography to date (no thanks Pro8mm). Anyway, the question I wanted to ask was, do you think the jitter in the reel was due to my Canon's clutch or a shoddy Pro8mm cartridge? Personally, I'm inclined to believe the latter but it would be nice to have a professional opinion.

 

Thanks.

[Gerald Moore]

To be honest I am not still convinced the problem lies solely with the camera or the cartridges. I have just recently used Fuji Velvia 50D purchased in Germany and have noticed jitter on both rolls using 2 separate fully serviced Bolex DS8 cameras. Using Kodak's K25 and Fomapan R 100 on the same day along with the Velvia 50D, Kodak and Fomapan showed no jittery whatsoever which therefore excludes the faulty camera variable. Could the problem lie with the film's perforation? Can one safely assume incorrectly perforated film stock can/will cause jitter?

[Terry Mester]

Wow! When I used one of my Pro8mm EXR rolls the film jittered quite markedly at the start and end of the telecine DVD, not to mention 90% of the film being to dark and murky to be legible, it's a shame because the roll undoubtedly contained my finest cinematography to date (no thanks Pro8mm). Anyway, the question I wanted to ask was, do you think the jitter in the reel was due to my Canon's clutch or a shoddy Pro8mm cartridge? Personally, I'm inclined to believe the latter but it would be nice to have a professional opinion.

Hi Mattie!

Did you look at the actual Frames of Film by holding it up to a light or in a Projector to verify the jitteriness? You want to be certain that the jitteriness is on the Film, and not caused by their Telecine Projector. Take a look and let us know for certain that it's on the Film. If it's a Positive Film you can run it on a Projector beside your TV to compare the original Film to the Telecine side by side. Regarding the darkness problem on Pro8mm's Telecine, if it's a Negative Film and if you have a Computer Scanner that can scan Film, you can then scan portions of the Filmstrip to convert into Positive in your Computer. You can also get this done at a Photo Store -- possibly for free. You'll then know if the darkness problems are on the Film or with the Telecine. If it's a Negative Film, it is much easier to correct over or under exposure than with Positive Film. I wouldn't trust Pro8mm's Telecine without checking the original Film. I too am personally inclined to blame Pro8mm for just about anything -- including the current California wildfires :lol: :lol: :lol: . If the Cartridges were assembled in a humid room, this moisture could make the Film sticky. Also, if they took the Film out of a Fridge and didn't let it warm up in an air-tight package, condensation would form on the Film making it sticky. If the Film weren't precisely cut to a width of 8mm, this inconsistent width would also cause stability problems. I don't want to incorrectly blame Pro8mm for manufacturing defects, but these defects would cause problems.

 

If the jitteriness is on your Film, when you say it was jittery at the "start", do you mean the first few seconds or the first 30 seconds? Jitteriness during the first few seconds of Film is normal because the Sprocket Arm has to successfully 'catch' its first Sprocket Hole before it starts running smoothly. You could suffer partial-frame advance during this period. Once the Cartridge gets to the 40 foot point, the Clutch will need to be slipping constantly, and tugging on the Film will be more prevalent if the Clutch is tight. As I noted, a simple test for the Clutch strength is to check the end of the Film in a used-up Cartridge. There should be 5 Sprocket Holes of Film left in the Cartridge Film Gate after the last Hole was pushed down by the Camera's Arm. If the last Sprocket Hole on the Film has advanced past the point of the Sprocket Arm, then the Clutch is pulling the Film and is too tight. Observe the number of Sprocket Holes in the Gate opening of a used-up Cartridge, and then run it in the Camera for about a minute. Note if any Film gets pulled down. If the Film advanced even a Frame, then you know the Camera's Clutch is too tight. Let me know the results of this test, and if you have 5 Sprocket Holes of Film left in the Film Gate. Also, were you filming at 18 or 24f/s? (Note below.)

 

To be honest I am not still convinced the problem lies solely with the camera or the cartridges. I have just recently used Fuji Velvia 50D purchased in Germany and have noticed jitter on both rolls using 2 separate fully serviced Bolex DS8 cameras. Using Kodak's K25 and Fomapan R 100 on the same day along with the Velvia 50D, Kodak and Fomapan showed no jittery whatsoever which therefore excludes the faulty camera variable. Could the problem lie with the film's perforation? Can one safely assume incorrectly perforated film stock can/will cause jitter?

Hi Gerald,

I mentioned at the beginning the potential for problems with a "stiff" Film. I'm pretty sure that Velvia is a thicker Film -- at least thicker than most films. Velvia is really a still Photographic Film, and was not originally designed as a Movie Film. Its thickness makes it stiff for travelling through the four 90 Degree Corners in a Super8 Cartridge. Also, was the temperature cold when you used the Velvia? Colder Film will be stiffer. One small improvement that could be made to the Super8 Cart is to add a second Roller Pin to the top corner above the Film Gate. This would probably solve the problems with Velvia. The Cartridge has one Roller Pin at the top back corner. I'll post some Pictures of the inside of a Cart for users to see how a Cart works. What speed were you filming at? If you've had jitteriness with a specific Film Brand at 24f/s, try it at 18f/s to see if it is still jittery.

 

I should have mentioned that higher Film Speeds can result in jitteriness. The Super8 Cartridge was originally designed for 18f/s. 24f/s is fully 33.3% faster than 18f/s which translates into 33.3% more friction per second. Since the strength of the Camera's Motor is not increased, you are more likely to suffer double-exposed Film Frames or an incomplete advance of an individual Frame. The four 90 Degree Corners to overcome in the Super8 Cartridge are tougher than in a 16mm or 35mm Camera. Additionally, how does the Film Speed change work in an individual Camera? Does it change a set of Gears, or does it use a variable resistor to change the speed of the Motor? If it uses Gears, this may not alter the speed of the Cartridge Clutch which could mean it is turning too slowly at the 24f/s Speed. This would be a problem during the first 10 feet or so of the Cartridge. A tight Clutch also makes a Film jam more likely because it puts a strain on the Gears and Motor causing them to slow down, and this weakens the Sprocket Arm's strength for pulling and pushing down the Film.

[Jim Carlile]

Well since the Velvia was roll film only and no cartridge, then sure, bad perforations could certainly cause jitteriness. This was an age-old problem back in the days when outfits would re-perf 16mm film to fit 8mm cameras. The registration could never be perfect and the result was jitter.

 

Bad perfs will cause jitteriness. With 3rd-party films that could be a variable. When I say it's almost never the cartridge I'm referring to Kodak film-- although there have been reports of cartridge problems with 64T and the B/W stocks, but it involves mostly reports of jamming.

 

The story goes that Kodak has outsourced cartridge manufacture, and they are also loading super 8 film at their new plant in Colorado. Most MP manufacture has been shifted to Colorado-- not sure about the coating but the MP film is coming from there now, sources quietly have been saying for awhile. And there have been problems....

 

The temperature is important too. Cold weather will stiffen up film and old lubricants.

[Terry Mester]

...-- although there have been reports of cartridge problems with 64T and the B/W stocks, but it involves mostly reports of jamming.

 

The story goes that Kodak has outsourced cartridge manufacture, and they are also loading super 8 film at their new plant in Colorado. Most MP manufacture has been shifted to Colorado-- not sure about the coating but the MP film is coming from there now, sources quietly have been saying for awhile. And there have been problems....

Hi Jim,

This new Kodak Colorado Plant is news to me. They've only been closing droves and droves of their factories. Is this Colorado Plant a replacement for the former French Plant? I wonder why they would have closed the French one to then open a new plant. Under Antonio Perez things have been very screwy at Kodak.

[Matthew Buick]

Hi Mattie!

Did you look at the actual Frames of Film by holding it up to a light or in a Projector to verify the jitteriness? You want to be certain that the jitteriness is on the Film, and not caused by their Telecine Projector. Take a look and let us know for certain that it's on the Film. If it's a Positive Film you can run it on a Projector beside your TV to compare the original Film to the Telecine side by side. Regarding the darkness problem on Pro8mm's Telecine, if it's a Negative Film and if you have a Computer Scanner that can scan Film, you can then scan portions of the Filmstrip to convert into Positive in your Computer. You can also get this done at a Photo Store -- possibly for free. You'll then know if the darkness problems are on the Film or with the Telecine. If it's a Negative Film, it is much easier to correct over or under exposure than with Positive Film. I wouldn't trust Pro8mm's Telecine without checking the original Film. I too am personally inclined to blame Pro8mm for just about anything -- including the current California wildfires :lol: :lol: :lol: . If the Cartridges were assembled in a humid room, this moisture could make the Film sticky. Also, if they took the Film out of a Fridge and didn't let it warm up in an air-tight package, condensation would form on the Film making it sticky. If the Film weren't precisely cut to a width of 8mm, this inconsistent width would also cause stability problems. I don't want to incorrectly blame Pro8mm for manufacturing defects, but these defects would cause problems.

 

If the jitteriness is on your Film, when you say it was jittery at the "start", do you mean the first few seconds or the first 30 seconds? Jitteriness during the first few seconds of Film is normal because the Sprocket Arm has to successfully 'catch' its first Sprocket Hole before it starts running smoothly. You could suffer partial-frame advance during this period. Once the Cartridge gets to the 40 foot point, the Clutch will need to be slipping constantly, and tugging on the Film will be more prevalent if the Clutch is tight. As I noted, a simple test for the Clutch strength is to check the end of the Film in a used-up Cartridge. There should be 5 Sprocket Holes of Film left in the Cartridge Film Gate after the last Hole was pushed down by the Camera's Arm. If the last Sprocket Hole on the Film has advanced past the point of the Sprocket Arm, then the Clutch is pulling the Film and is too tight. Observe the number of Sprocket Holes in the Gate opening of a used-up Cartridge, and then run it in the Camera for about a minute. Note if any Film gets pulled down. If the Film advanced even a Frame, then you know the Camera's Clutch is too tight. Let me know the results of this test, and if you have 5 Sprocket Holes of Film left in the Film Gate. Also, were you filming at 18 or 24f/s? (Note below.)

 

Well Terry. I did take a look at the actual film reel, it's a negative, and the vast amount of it was either completely devoid of image, or had very faint evidence of an image. I noticed the jitter when watching the telecine DVD, Todd-AO did the telecine in what I imagine was a rank cinetel, I couldn't imagine them making any mistakes, their service was top notch. I couldn't say when the jitter stopped because the screen went totally black after the first twelve second shot, nothing legible came up for about two minutes, that shot looked perfect, the exposure, framing and focus were spot on (one for the demo reel), the second shot looked perhaps two stops underexposed, but the colours were lovely so I'm not complaining, then all went dark for the rest of the DVD save for a vague outline of my car. It's as if someone spiced lengths of perfectly usable film into a length of utter crap!

 

And as such I shall take your hilarious advice and blame Pro8mm for all my ills, and the ills of others!! :D :D :D

 

Take Care!

[Michael Lehnert]

Terry,

 

can I make a hyperlink to this thread of yours in the pinned FAQ thread here, once I find time to do new add-on posts? Would appreciate your "okay". If I forget to do so by early August, could I also ask you the huuuge favour of reminding me about my proposition? I am terribly busy right now and loose post-its on paper and electronically here and there and everywhere :wacko: and I don't want this to be a victim, too. Just bump the thread with a "Oy! Reminder to Michael" note or PM me. Many thanks, and great great analytic work. I will have to read it over and over again to fully appreciate the details you paid attention to.

 

Cheers,

 

-Michael

 

 

 

P.S.: Chalons-sur-Saône was closed in 2006, and

...

, as it withstood the first attempt to blow it up - just like Super 8 and cine-film always do :wub: B) . It was originally planned to move all cine-film production centrally to a new plant, Kodak Park at Rochester. However, all the new Super 8 manufacturing machinery ended up in Colorado. I don't have any details on that plant as John Pytlak, our venerable liaison to Kodak, has passed away while all signs where pointing to Kodak Park, and nothing at all about Colorado.

[Leo Anthony Vale]

P.S.: Chalons-sur-Saône was closed in 2006, and

...

, as it withstood the first attempt to blow it up - just like Super 8 and cine-film always do :wub: B) .

 

From Wiki:

 

Chalon is best known as the birthplace of photography. Its most famous resident, Nicéphore Niépce also has a lycée (secondary school) named after him. There is a museum which contains some early photography relics, located on the Quai des Messageries in the town, containing more than two million photographs and many old artefacts such as cameras and other equipment for old and modern photography.

 

Symbolic?

 

Meanwhile in Rochester:

 

[Terry Mester]

Terry,

can I make a hyperlink to this thread of yours in the pinned FAQ thread here, once I find time to do new add-on posts? Would appreciate your "okay". If I forget to do so by early August, could I also ask you the huuuge favour of reminding me about my proposition?

 

P.S.: Chalons-sur-Saône was closed in 2006, and

...

, as it withstood the first attempt to blow it up - just like Super 8 and cine-film always do :wub: B) . It was originally planned to move all cine-film production centrally to a new plant, Kodak Park at Rochester. However, all the new Super 8 manufacturing machinery ended up in Colorado. I don't have any details on that plant as John Pytlak, our venerable liaison to Kodak, has passed away while all signs where pointing to Kodak Park, and nothing at all about Colorado.

Hi Michael,

Yes you can add it if you like. I praise your great work on the FAQ Thread. I was planning to add this to the FAQ Thread in the same future Post as other Links to a few new info Threads I will soon be posting on the Cartridge, Projector Tips, Soundproofing the Camera and how to safely open up the Camera. Stay tuned.

 

Thanks to both you and Leo for the info on the closed (blown up :angry: ) French Factory. I was told on filmshooting.com about problems last year with E64T Cartridges jamming. This would probably not have happened at the French Factory with their skilled employees! The only likely cause of these E64 Carts jamming is that the Film was cut too wide. Kodak has been active over the past 20 years in getting rid of higher-wage skilled employees. They did this at the former Fairlawn, NJ Kodachrome Plant with horrible results.

 

Chalon is best known as the birthplace of photography. Its most famous resident, Nicéphore Niépce also has a lycée (secondary school) named after him. There is a museum which contains some early photography relics, located on the Quai des Messageries in the town, containing more than two million photographs and many old artefacts such as cameras and other equipment for old and modern photography.

 

Symbolic?

 

Meanwhile in Rochester:

You're quite right Leo. This is tragically symbolic. I only have Dialup Internet. What is this youtube video?

[Michael Lehnert]

Great, Terry, that sounds not only brilliant but I am really looking forward to this! This also takes some pressure of me to work on the FAQ soonish as I will be working in L.A. in August and hence have no time to spend here.

 

I suggest the following:

 

as I want to maintain the FAQ in a somewhat orderly manner, I will take care of everything.

 

In order to keep a content theme going from the currently last FAQ post, I will be posting a new FAQ post about the exposure index working in Super 8 first in the next week or so fist.

 

Then, I will do four FAQ posts which I am gonna make on your subforum threads with hyperlinks and text intro once all is posted by you in the subforum here - I think this is the best way. Why?

- You can do the original forum post with pics and all, with a layout to your wishes

- People can read, reply and contribute to it freely in the subforum thread in question which boosts the knowledge even further. So the FAQ post will be a portal to the knowledge base you created here.

- This approach limits traffic to your posted pictures. FAQ readers will click on the relevant hyperlinked thread of yours in the FAQ, so the pics will only be loaded for really interested people. Otherwise, your hosted pics would suffer from a great deal of traffic as for every FAQ reader (roughly two to three per hour on average) would make them load up alot without being necessary. So I think this solution I suggest would be in your interest.

 

To conclude, may I suggest the following order that I am gonna do with your threads here in the FAQ:

 

FAQ post 0: this will be with content by myself about the EI/ISO chaos and how to handle this based on the Nizo 136 thread we had here.

 

FAQ post 1:

- "Super 8 Inside Out": your two threads about the Super 8 cart disection & how to safely open up the super 8 camera.

 

FAQ post 2:

- "Solution to Jitter": this very thread.

 

FAQ post 3:

- "Soundproofing the camera": a future thread of yours

 

FAQ post 4:

- "Projecting Super 8 - Tips by Terry": your projector thread

 

Does that sound okay to you?

 

-Michael

[Terry Mester]

Does that sound okay to you?

 

-Michael

That's fine Michael. We can E-Mail back and forth to arrange things further.

[Michael Lehnert]

That's fine Michael. We can E-Mail back and forth to arrange things further.

 

Agreed! I PM you in due time.

 

-ML

[Chris Smart]

Hello!

Does anyone have Terry's original posts images backed up somewhere?

[Mark Dunn]

1 hour ago, Chris Smart said:

Hello!

Does anyone have Terry's original posts images backed up somewhere?

I sincerely hope not. His notions were misconcieved and ignorant and he was quite impervious to logic.

[Chris Smart]

Good to know! Thanks Mark