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4k Red Images at IBC


Stephen Williams

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Hi Everybody,

 

Last year during IBC I made my first very positive comments on Red images, after seeing "Crossing the Line". The improvement since then are truly unbelievable with regards to skin tones & dynamic range. The resolution in wide establishing shots is truely unbelievable. The Red one camera when used by a talented cinematographer, posting at a world class facility & viewed using a 4k Sony projector does produce excellent results.

 

I am looking forward to seeing Epic footage next year, my only negative comment is high speed 2k resolution sticks out, clearly having less resolution & less color fidelity. I get the feeling 3k cuts without issue so Scarlet footage could be good enough for many applications.

 

Exciting times,

 

Stephen

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Hi Everybody,

 

Last year during IBC I made my first very positive comments on Red images, after seeing "Crossing the Line". The improvement since then are truly unbelievable with regards to skin tones & dynamic range. The resolution in wide establishing shots is truely unbelievable. The Red one camera when used by a talented cinematographer, posting at a world class facility & viewed using a 4k Sony projector does produce excellent results.

 

I am looking forward to seeing Epic footage next year, my only negative comment is high speed 2k resolution sticks out, clearly having less resolution & less color fidelity. I get the feeling 3k cuts without issue so Scarlet footage could be good enough for many applications.

 

Exciting times,

 

Stephen

 

While we have come a long way in the past year, we have many more things to do to improve our program. We have been humbled by the complexity and difficulty of building a camera of this nature from ground zero. Our bravado represented our passion. Our newly found humility represents the reality of getting this far and realizing how much more work we have to do.

 

It is great to hear that you liked the footage. Your opinion carries a lot of weight. But rather than revel in your comment, we accept it only as further encouragement to continue to improve all areas of our program.

 

Jim

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That was a very impressive presentation yesterday. Sitting in the front seat I was blown away by the shots, especially the one with the girl sitting at the table backlit by a very bright window. Can someone tell me why the brightness of the projection seemed a little too high, judging from the color bars at the beginning?

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That was a very impressive presentation yesterday. Sitting in the front seat I was blown away by the shots, especially the one with the girl sitting at the table backlit by a very bright window. Can someone tell me why the brightness of the projection seemed a little too high, judging from the color bars at the beginning?

 

Hi,

 

I did not think the projection was too bright, I don't think video bars have any relevance to the Red footage. There were no color bars on tonights presentation.

 

Stephen

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I loved almost all of the footage too. Some shots were jaw dropping. My favourite shot was a black man addressing a crowd in a hall, shot from below. Noiseless 70mm clarity. What a difference to all the examples shown on the 2K DLP.

Edited by Michel Hafner
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. The improvement since then are truly unbelievable with regards to skin tones & dynamic range. The resolution in wide establishing shots is truely unbelievable.

Stephen

 

Hi Stephen, was this with a current firmware build, or Build 17 or was footage from both - or ?

 

Thanks

 

-Sam

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Hi Stephen, was this with a current firmware build, or Build 17 or was footage from both - or ?

 

Thanks

 

-Sam

 

Hi Sam,

 

It was all client material shot since the cameras launch, so various builds upto 15/16. Hi end post makes a huge difference IMHO. One clip was shot by David Mullen from his recent film Manure.

 

Stephen

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What a difference to all the examples shown on the 2K DLP.

 

Hi,

 

Arri also had some amazing images from a D21 & showed some S16 footage that had had a grain reduction done by a Canadian company. The S16 was indistinguishable from the 35mm 'b' camera. I viewed this the day after the first Red presentation but just before the second Red presentation, I thought they held up fine, clearly out resolving the high speed Red footage. I was in the front row for both screenings on Saturday, Row 2 on Friday.

 

Stephen

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Arri also had some amazing images from a D21 & showed some S16 footage that had had a grain reduction done by a Canadian company. The S16 was indistinguishable from the 35mm 'b' camera. I viewed this the day after the first Red presentation but just before the second Red presentation, I thought they held up fine, clearly out resolving the high speed Red footage. I was in the front row for both screenings on Saturday, Row 2 on Friday.

Stephen

(you must have sit practically next to me if you were in the middle)

Only the 'good' 4K RED shots were visibly better than any 2K material, but it shows the potential when people go for 4K and sharp lenses and optimal post production. There was also one shot that looked barely 720p. And most shots could benefit from more contrast from the Sony projector.

The degrained 16mm was amazing. First time I really liked the look of degrained material and saw no artifacts at first sight.

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Hi,

 

Arri also had some amazing images from a D21 & showed some S16 footage that had had a grain reduction done by a Canadian company. The S16 was indistinguishable from the 35mm 'b' camera. I viewed this the day after the first Red presentation but just before the second Red presentation, I thought they held up fine, clearly out resolving the high speed Red footage. I was in the front row for both screenings on Saturday, Row 2 on Friday.

 

Stephen

 

Did you manage to see the SI 2k screening?

 

I'm curious how it compares against windowed RED 2k.

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Hi Brian,

 

Yes I did see it.

 

Probably about the same as the Red 2K, I was not impressed.

 

Stephen

 

I suspected that might be the case once RED caught up with their builds. I guess they'll have to get a 3k chip into the SI to remain competitive for a 2k out for those productions needing a smaller 2/3" camera.

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Hate to hijack the 4K Red thread, but do you happen to know what s16mm filmstock was used in the Arri footage? Also, which lenses?

 

And, lastly, the name of the Canadian company that did the degraining work?

 

Thanks.

Hi,

 

It was a daylight stock so I assume 50 / 64 asa. I think master primes, zeiss for sure & not Cooke.

 

Not sure the name of the company, sorry.

 

Stephen

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I think that 3K displayed at 48 or 60 frames per second would offer the best compromise between spatial resolution and motion fidelity.

 

Hi,

 

The second time I viewed the demo, I felt I could tell which shots were 2k, 3k & 4k. The 3K & 4K I am very happy with. 2k seems to have less color information as well as quite low resoloution. I don't really understand why I dont like the colors, I am just saying what I saw with my own eyes.

 

Stephen

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Hi,

 

The second time I viewed the demo, I felt I could tell which shots were 2k, 3k & 4k. The 3K & 4K I am very happy with. 2k seems to have less color information as well as quite low resoloution. I don't really understand why I dont like the colors, I am just saying what I saw with my own eyes.

 

Stephen

 

3K has 2.25 times more resolution than 2K at 16:9, 4K has 4 times the resolution of 2K. One thing that we faced was having just enough 4K to choose from for the reel and not very much 2K submitted. Grading has almost everything to do with the color you saw. There is no color difference between 2K, 3K and 4K from the camera's standpoint.

 

Jim

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It's the same thing with 16mm, 35mm and 65mm, the higher the resolution, the cleaner the colors, especially in the shadows.

 

Hi Max,

 

I think that explains why I have never really liked the colors from video cameras in the past & always pushed to shoot 35mm over S16.

 

Stephen

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Hi Max,

 

I think that explains why I have never really liked the colors from video cameras in the past & always pushed to shoot 35mm over S16.

 

Stephen

 

It's more likely the smaller colour space on the traditional video cameras you don't like. Unfortunately, you can't really now compare comparable sensors that are different sizes side by side. I suppose the nearest might have been 1" tube cameras against 2/3" cameras - the BBC used their EMI 2001 cameras on dramas well into the 2/3" age.

 

I suppose the closest thing to test this theory on would be a single sensor camera like the RED that offers both 4k and windowed 2k, but you could get into the "is this a video camera" debate. The other possibility that might come close, the F23 and F35, offers different types of sensor.

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The resolution in wide establishing shots is truely unbelievable. The Red one camera when used by a talented cinematographer, posting at a world class facility & viewed using a 4k Sony projector does produce excellent results....

Yes, but it was ever thus; you're bringing up that same old same ol'-same ol' :lol:

 

If you can afford a talented cinematographer and a world class post facility and a 4K Sony projector (and the upkeep on it!) you can produce excellent results on a lot of supposedly dodgy formats, or satisfactory results on a high end video camera, or superb results on 35mm film. The cost of all the excellence tends to erode the benefit of using the cheaper format.

 

I'm afraid I am not much of a fan of manufacturers' "Show Reels" anyway, since they only tend to show footage that comes out particularly well. I'll wait until something comes on HDTV or my local digital-equipped cinema.

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"If you can afford a talented cinematographer and a world class post facility and a 4K Sony projector (and the upkeep on it!) you can produce excellent results on a lot of supposedly dodgy formats, or satisfactory results on a high end video camera, or superb results on 35mm film. The cost of all the excellence tends to erode the benefit of using the cheaper format.

 

I'm afraid I am not much of a fan of manufacturers' "Show Reels" anyway, since they only tend to show footage that comes out particularly well. I'll wait until something comes on HDTV or my local digital-equipped cinema."

 

 

Best and most accurate answer I've seen on this board in a long time!!!! Like Politicians running for president, a manufacturers demonstration is not exactly 'real world' nor always accurate.

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Like Politicians running for president, a manufacturers demonstration is not exactly 'real world' nor always accurate.

Reminds me of Panavision's Allen Davidau-shot Genesis test footage, shot on a closed set with security guards and only shown in a few relatively inaccessible locations. People raved about the quality of that, even though Davidau was not one one of them :lol:

 

Well, it's like they say: "If you want to know what it would be like to be married to a girl, watch how she talks to her little brother...."

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Reminds me of Panavision's Allen Davidau-shot Genesis test footage, shot on a closed set with security guards and only shown in a few relatively inaccessible locations. People raved about the quality of that, even though Davidau was not one one of them :lol:

 

Well, it's like they say: "If you want to know what it would be like to be married to a girl, watch how she talks to her little brother...."

 

The "Reel" was a compilation of shots from trained professional to kids shooting their 1st stuff with a PL mount lens. Since you were not there, and Stephen was...

 

Of course we show the best stuff available to us at the time. That is all any cinematographer does. You think he wants to show you the missed exposures, out of focus shots? This real shows what can be done, and has been done with the RED ONE. Whether or not someone is capable of doing this good of work is up to them. All this shows is that the tool is capable. Two years ago, many of you thought it would not (be capable). The important difference here between our reel and whatever the Genesis was... is every piece of footage shown was submitted by our customers from real jobs or tests. We had nothing to do with any of the images shown... except to be proud of them.

 

Jim

Edited by Jim Jannard
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Since you were not there, and Stephen was...

And you've been in the RED factory since day one. So has every other manufacturer. If you're going to go down that road, why have demonstrations at all?

You think he wants to show you the missed exposures, out of focus shots?

Jim

Of course not. But the whole concept is flawed. In the real world "the missed exposures, out of focus shots" etc are what the non-technical producer/director etc are going to be seeing. You don't get the option of vetting your shots in a real-world situation. Too many ruined shots and you remain a nonentity. And eliminating film does not help - time is always going to be far more expensive than stock. It's like being a portrait photographer - you job is not to find good-looking people to photograph, it's more to make the people who come through you door look good (or at least as good as they are going to look).

 

In any event, I have no argument that the RED will have more than enough resolution. Of course I have yet to actually see any real-world footage in a real-world setting, but the science behind the RED system is sound enough, which fact I have incidentally pointed out here on several occasions, and at times even tried to provide an explanation to less technical posters, complete with animated graphics!

 

What is going to make or break the RED is Dynamic range as you well know. If you spend enough time with the lighting you can make just about any video camera look good (at least on static shots). I also know how to set up shots that will have any electronic camera yike-ing off to hide in the bushes, (like my dog when challenged by one of these vicious Fairy Wrens that inhabit my backyard) :lol: Strangely, no local RED owner seems interested.

 

Malurus_cyaneus_Superb_Fairy-wren_male_620.JPG

Edited by Keith Walters
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