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Evolution vs. ID vs. God


Paul Bruening

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I believe in God and I see the evidence of evolution working. I'm in the process of marrying my two beliefs together. On the one hand I have my Christian faith that is my foundation, resolution and source of meaning in this world, on the other hand I am a scientist and cannot disregard logical thought. I believe God is a God that is rational and makes sense. Yes there are many things above our understanding, but everything has a purpose in the long run. That being said I also think that all truth is God's truth so one cannot reject hard facts simply because they are difficult. I think the bible and God can stand up to difficult questions and examination if one actually seeks answers. That's my take, what about everyone else? Anyone have similar thoughts or am I the odd one out?

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P.S. I also think ID is something people on both sides of the evolution/religion debate know is bologna. It's pretty bad that christians think they can make any ground with scientists and evolutionists by using the ID argument. The focus should be about loving God and each other selflessly. Something I myself struggle with very often. No one cares where we came from if there is no point to it all and that's something I want my films to be about. Hope. Not prostelitizing or preachy, just that there is hope.

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I'm only going to post once on this topic, and only pose one question in this post.

 

If God exists and created the universe, wouldn't he give organisms a mechanism to change and modify the way they live to change with their habitat and climate? Whatever would one call that mechanism...?

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Well intelligence design is obviously a joke, no need to even discuss it. It's akin to Scientology and other beliefs that DESERVE (forgive my modesty) ridicule.

 

Evolution vs. God? This is supposed to be the fight of the millennia, even though they're completely compatible with each other. I can't say this with 100 % certainty of course, but I'm almost 99.9999% sure that the Christian god doesn't exist; I wouldn't want him to, because he is a megalomaniac douche bag. If god is supposed to be this infinite conscious that we're yet to discover, then fine, but I don't base my life on what "he" (if it's P.C. to call "him" that) thinks. I live my life without taking a supernatural being into account; just like Laplace I have no need for that presumption. I really don't see the need for god as a concept, since, now a days, we can pretty much ascertain everything in the universe correctly without the bible, Qur’an or the Talmud. Faith? Honestly I think there's no such thing as faith, just blind faith. Just a make-believe crutch that serves as a obstacle to human perception. Of course people are allowed to believe in any fairytales they wish, if it makes them feel good, but at this point I just think that organized religion just poses a hindrance, and is taken FAAAAAAAR to seriously then what's necessary.

 

Haha, that's quite a rant. Well, organized religion annoys the living hell out of me.

Edited by Hampus Bystrom
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Humans, and I'm not using the word to comment on any posters, I mean humans in general, process both with inclusion and exclusion. This is a good process for differentiating many things and making good choices, of course. Choices like: Eating crocodile is good. Being eaten by crocodile is bad. Yet with really big stuff like God I've found it quite useful to mostly use inclusion. Like many posters on this thread, I'm comfortable with both God and evolution. I'm even okay with many aspects of intelligent design. It's not so much that my comfort is with the positions that they represent. My comfort is with what each position allows me to understand about everything. I assume that we are such tiny and incomplete perceivers of the really big stuff that we're always looking at everything from an inherently flawed-by-our-limits position.

 

Being eaten by crocodiles is still bad.

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Well intelligence design is obviously a joke, no need to even discuss it. It's akin to Scientology and other beliefs that DESERVE (forgive my modesty) ridicule.

 

I believe evolution to be true, but the idea that the first cell arrived from nothing immediately seems just as ridiculous as claiming some "spaghetti god" did it. Yes, "chance" seems the most tangible and scientific of all hypotheses, but for the first cell, it's still a Gap theory. What happened was that Darwin said, "Hey look, all life seems to be related and the most fit creatures adapt and overcome" and that was the only thing some people needed to kill God. But wait a second, we still have questions!

 

Until we get a decent explanation with a testable model, that first cell theory is open for takers, and I don't believe anyone should be ridiculed. Even that one idiot on TV who believes in Scientology :rolleyes: (kidding) But otherwise I respect your opinions.

 

And the truth is, if a creator did make the first cell (which I believe to be true), then evolution is really just Intelligent Design with science to back it. If God got life started, then He made evolution. You actually make this assertion:

 

Evolution vs. God? This is supposed to be the fight of the millennia, even though they're completely compatible with each other.

 

Bravo. I'm actually going to start a new theory: Intelligent Evolution. Any takers?

 

AO

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, but I'm almost 99.9999% sure that the Christian god doesn't exist; I wouldn't want him to, because he is a megalomaniac douche bag.

 

Actually, the scriptural (Old and New Testament derived from Septuagint) conception of God is that He is working to redeem man and loves man. In matter of fact, He sacrificed His son to save mankind. The son of destruction (often referred to as Lucifer) is actually the one to blame for the initial lie which bestowed Sin Nature upon man, thus separating man from God, until God saves man with Jesus.

 

You are free to not believe in God and even free to say it. All day long, if it pleases you. But to say that God is a megalomaniac douche bag is just plain ignorance. The description of God (according to all descriptions in the Bible) cannot back up such a base judgement.

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Well, organized religion annoys the living hell out of me.

It should. It annoyed the hell out of Jesus too.

The Law (Ten Commandments, Deuteronomy, the "organized religion" of Sadducean and Pharisean doctrine) actually came to show man sin. To show that he can't save himself, even when he has a book of all the do's and don'ts. (Romans 7) There are many things that should bother you about organized religion. I follow Jesus. I'm bothered by it. Lot of hypocrisy, yes. But what I don't want to happen is for people to get the wrong impression of who Jesus is and what Christianity is REALLY about, all because of some selfish, unloving "whitewashed tombs" hating and condemning people. Not what Christ taught. I fail at this constantly, but if I-as a Christian-want you(plural) to know anything, it is that Jesus loves you, wants to save you, and will take care of you.

 

"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ." -Mahatma Gandhi

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I find it very hard to believe in something if there is no proof that that "something" actually exists. If someone tells me it's raining outside, I believe them, but I can still look outside to see. If someone tells me that God exists, I ask them to prove it, and I've yet to have anyone give me any proof that their claim is true. I wouldn't mind if someone could prove it, but so far they've all been unable.

As a thinking and questioning person, I can't understand how people have "faith" that God exists every day. I CAN understand how people in need or a dire situation believe...because they have no other hope. I think a lot of times what religion does is take the hope out of people and replace it with fear. In my opinion, most religions are only concerned about one thing...money. I think most religion is just like George Bush, big, dumb, and unwilling to listen to reason and unwilling to compromise. They just aim themselves in one direction and go there, no matter how ridiculous that direction is, and no matter who it hurts. Now I'm mixing religion AND politics...I'm really asking for it now I guess!

I look to facts to understand things. If there are no facts, there is no understanding.

I don't fault or have any problem with someone that believes differently than me. We can all think for ourselves and decide what we believe to be true. What I DO have a problem with is people who try to force their beliefs on me, and when I cannot be coerced, they judge and curse me and tell me I'm going to hell. Or, in the case of a particular poster on this forum...he calls people he doesn't agree with pathetic, weak, childish, intellectually weak, and feeble minded. I've experienced quite a few religious nutjobs like that in my lifetime, and I don't mind having a chuckle sometimes when they rant and rave. The hypocrisy is actually quite funny.

I've just realized that I'm the one ranting now, so I'll shut up.

And to those that read the thread that started THIS thread....my apologies if I was out of line. I found it hard to hold my tongue (and fingers) and probably should not have posted publicly.

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I can't help but think that in 2000 years time the main religions that exist today will end up much like the Roman or Greek gods - myths rather than practised faiths. As to God vs Evolution, let me paraphase Douglas Adams...

 

The argument goes something like this: "I refuse to prove that I exist," says God, "for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing."

"But," says Man, "life is a dead giveaway isn't it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves you exist, and so therefore, by your own arguments, you don't. QED."

"Oh dear," says God, "I hadn't thought of that," and promptly vanishes in a puff of logic."

 

God vs Evolution... like Aliens vs Predator but with more guns.

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You are free to not believe in God and even free to say it. All day long, if it pleases you. But to say that God is a megalomaniac douche bag is just plain ignorance. The description of God (according to all descriptions in the Bible) cannot back up such a base judgement.

 

Eh, okay. I don't see why calling the christian god a douche bag is ignorant. It is my subjective opinion derived from reading the bible. Oh the biblical description of god can't back that up you say? Well, again, it's my personal oppinion and here's some verses why I believe so (no paraphrasing here, the verses will be referenced to):

 

From the Psalms:

21:9 Thou shalt make them as a fiery oven in the time of thine anger: the LORD shall swallow them up in his wrath, and the fire shall devour them.

 

21:10 Their fruit shalt thou destroy from the earth, and their seed from among the children of men.

 

Here god basically says that he'll make both you and your children burn if you make him angry...

Seems reasonable.

 

From book of the Romans:

1:31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:

 

1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

 

Here, it's basically postulated that homosexuals are worthy of death.

 

From the gospel according to John:

 

15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

 

Yeah.. if you don't believe that Jesus could walk on water and heal the sick, you're going to be burned.

 

These are but a few of the myriad of similar examples in the bible. For those of you who are interested in an unbiased (I.E. churches who make their living by interpreting the bible) version of the bible; check out http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/

 

And again, evolution has never been a theory of the origin of life, and scientists are still debating on how we came to be.

Evolution is the process, whereby simple lifeforms can grow more complex over time. Period. It's nothing more, nothing less. And it IS proven, by fossile records and strata layers. I really have problems with theistic evolutionists also, but I don't have the time to adress them here.

Edited by Hampus Bystrom
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...As a thinking and questioning person, I can't understand how people have "faith" that God exists every day...

That raises an interesting point.. does the existence of a 'God' need to be proven? How does one do that? Does the existence of said celestial being need to be dis-proven? Is it even possible to do that?!

 

I think the reason we're all still debating this issue (insert your preferred number of years since man was capable of thought here) years later implies to me that the existence of God can neither be proven, nor dis-proven using conventional logic. This would explain why some put their faith in the existence of God, other's put their faith only in what they can see/hear/prove/disprove and other's stake their faith on the idea that there is no God... either way, we're all demonstrating a fair amount of faith.. :)

 

To me personally, the idea that life is completely driven by blind chance, and that there is nothing more to life than what we experience here and now, makes it all sounds utterly pointless.

So I need / want to believe there is more to life, that there is a God of some sort, because I need to believe that life has meaning beyond survival of the fittest.

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From the Psalms:

21:9 Thou shalt make them as a fiery oven in the time of thine anger: the LORD shall swallow them up in his wrath, and the fire shall devour them.

 

Psalms, written by David. David was going to war (or rather was attacked frequently) and this particular passage, if you will read the entire chapter, is his prayer for those who "hated" God and was despising to crush the nation of Israel. God did not say this, David did (fyi). And, if you know anything about the father of Solomon, he was anything but perfect.

Same applies to the next verse as well.

Before I go further, the actual words of Jesus in Luke 6: 27-31.

"27. But I say to you who hear, Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who abuse you. 29. To one who strikes you on the cheek, offer the other also, and from one who takes away your cloak do not withold your tunic either. 30. Give to everyone who begs from you, and from one who takes away your goods do not demand them back. 31. And as you wish that others would do to you, do so to them."

And since Jesus IS God:

"Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am." (John 8: 57-59) [ "I am" is translated as the name of God and it was considered blasphemous for man to utter the name of God. That's why they tried to stone him]

 

 

From book of the Romans:

1:31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:

 

1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

 

Those that are skeptic (like myself, mind you) should read all of Romans 1. It'll get you on track with starting to study the "proof" of God. More on that later.

First off, you must understand that everything deemed "sin" is worthy of death, by the same degree . Don't pick out homosexuals. With that in mind, we are all worthy of death. Hence the need for Jesus, as Paul lays out in the rest of this book . If I'm reading an argumentative paper (which is very much the structure of Paul's writings), I'm not going to stop at only a few paragraphs in! How confused I would be!

 

From the gospel according to John:

 

15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

 

Who gathers those that don't abide in God? "...and men gather them..." As for hell. God didn't deem man to go to hell. Man deemed man to go to hell. (Romans 5: 12-21).

 

My point, guys, is this. Pick up Blaine Brown's Cinematography book. Open to page 51. Let's pick a sentence. How about this one: "The essential point is the focus as a storytelling tool." Page 128: "Visible light is only produced when an electron falls into the second shell of an atom." Page ix: "To a great extent the knowledge base of the cinematographer overlaps with the knowledge base of the director."

Now, if I'm an amateur cinematographer, will these three verses suffice for my understand of cinematography as a whole. Hardly. Are all of these sentences true? Yes. But it doesn't help me understand the context and application of what's being said. What would you suggest me do instead? Maybe read the whole thing. A couple of times, maybe. If I really want to know about it and be able to discuss it with you guys. Maybe take some classes. Maybe practice it...

I'm not suggesting that anyone here necessarily even wants to know more about Christianity. All I am saying is that, if you want to know what Anna Karenina is about, you read Anna Karenina! All of it.

 

And again, evolution has never been a theory of the origin of life, and scientists are still debating on how we came to be.

Evolution is the process, whereby simple lifeforms can grow more complex over time. Period. It's nothing more, nothing less. And it IS proven, by fossile records and strata layers. I really have problems with theistic evolutionists also, but I don't have the time to adress them here.

Agreed.

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This would explain why some put their faith in the existence of God, other's put their faith only in what they can see/hear/prove/disprove and other's stake their faith on the idea that there is no God... either way, we're all demonstrating a fair amount of faith.. :)

There is a flaw with this argument. People that only believe what they "see/hear/prove/diprove" are basing their BELIEFS on facts, not on faith. So those people don't need to use faith to believe what they believe, so they aren't exercising any faith at all.

 

I disagree about your assertions about "disproving" things as well. There is no need to disprove most things. If you can prove it, it exists, if you can't prove it, then there is SOME possibility that it exists. That doesn't mean it does, it just means there is no proof one way or the other.

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According to the Scientific Method, a "theory" consists of general principles drawn from facts that explain observations and can predict future events. Each must be based on a Falsifiable/Null Hypothesis.

Scientist, according to this Method, must make Null Hypotheses that must be disproved in order that they may prove the working assumption describing the observed phenomena.

So, according to this, we know that the "earth is round" only because we know the "earth is not square."

Just a scientific point of view.

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I dig science, like an armchair scientist kind of thing. I'm really fascinated that science works for us because we have the capacity to see and test the world through scientific, mental processes. It all makes sense, you know, science and scientific mentality. What's even more fascinating is why we have a mental capacity for God when there's so little that can be classified as evidence for a God. It doesn't matter how impractical God is, we are chock full of assumptions about his existence, both denial and affirmation. People all over the planet are doing this in their own ways. It's not just some localized fluke. It's every where.

 

The same goes for our rather easy ability to fly. I don't mean flapping our arms type of flying. We do need a machine to do the physics part. But why does nature need to endow us with the ability to process movement in terms of flight and translate that movement into hand and feet gestures that maintain the flight of that machine. That's freakin' weird, man! Isn't nature supposed to be ruthlessly practical through evolution? Where does God and flight come into man's evolutionary sequence? If it's ID then what's the design sense of God or flight for man? If it's God, why make us obsess about something we can't perceive or verify? Why create us to fly but make us ground pounders.

 

Something about all this doesn't fit together. Like when you've just bought something from a salesman and you're just starting to have that revelation that maybe you got conned. Maybe, we need an even newer paradigm. Something that will totally blow our brains right out of our numb skulls.

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So, according to science, one must disprove in order to come to a declarable theory.

Hmm, OK. I guess I'm wrong about that. Although, I wasn't speaking directly about a scientist, or scientists, just ordinary people like myself who make judgments based on what they know to be fact.

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