So Panavision underbid REDs, should I be offended?

[Emanuel A Guedes]

(...)

 

How a movie makes it from an idea on paper to the big screen is just so much more complex than that.

 

(...)

 

Things have not changed because the camera was never really the balance of power in the first place.

 

Professional filmmakers are not necessarily tied to any one technology. Most everyone is fairly flexible to the tools and technology of filmmaking. Whether it be 35mm, 16mm, 8mm, F35, D21, Genesis, or RED. Most look at all of these options and choose what they feel will work best for their particular aesthetic and production challenge.

 

Largely what divides the independent filmmaker from the Hollywood studio filmmaker, are connections and relationships with producers, executives, and distributors inside the Hollywood system, as well as the ability to get known actors to play in your film.

I fully agree with you on this. But... And an aesthetic one? I am sure you're forgetting something over there.

 

EDIT -- After a few cuts now, I stand corrected.

Edited December 23, 2008 by Emanuel A Guedes

[Justin Hayward]

Why does every new camera have to solicit this never-ending lecture about how new cameras will not make you the next Scorsese?

Walter has beaten this dead horse into the ground 15 miles below the earth's surface,

 

I hear what you're scream'n.

 

If one more dude compares the difference in cameras to the difference in oil and water painting (they're just tools), I'll... have to endure it with great animosity... :P

 

Only thing is, some people think these new cameras are magic wands that will transform their never-going-to-be-produced-idea-anyway into cinematic gold. Which is annoying. And, which is why I think these guys repeat themselves so often.

 

Obviously, you're the exception.

[Adrian Sierkowski]

Personally I don't mind the pipe-dreamers, so long as they can pay a day rate. We were all such dreamers at one time, I think.

What saddens me, really, is when clients wind up with the talent-less and a product which could have been better isn't. It worries me too because these clients may then soon either settle for it, stop making whatever productions they had planned, or distrust the "next guy."

That may just be me.

 

as for the under-bidding, hate it when that happens :/ but sadly it happens, especially now I think that with people spooked the cheapest option is the one they will go with. Machiavellian in a way-- the end distribution needs will justify the means. And with so many "routes," to HD or whatever, I feel we'll find that cheaper=better at this particular point in time.

Here's hoping to a rebounding '09!

[Thomas James]

For all those people that say that the camera and the format do not make any difference I have this to say. What they are really ignoring is the IMAX experience where it is all about the camera and the big screen and being inside of the picture. Before the arrival of the Red Epic directors said they tested the Red and decided to go with 35mm film. But after Epic is introduced next year I have no doubt in my mind that directors who reject the Red Epic format will have no choice but to shoot in 70mm IMAX if they want to maintain credible competition.

 

And really I keep hearing this attitude that since the all movies for the foreseable future will be delivered on DVD so who cares about the picture quality? The fact of the matter is that standard definition DVD is a dying format just like low definition VHS was ten years ago.

[Keith Walters]

And we have read this same lecture here DOZENS AND DOZENS of times, if not hundreds or thousands of times.

 

If anyone thinks a certain camera is going to make them a great success, they are idiots and are not worth wasting your breath on.

 

So, WHY then do you feel it necessary to continually remind us about the slack handful of mostly Directors, (and in general NOT principally of Photography) who have decided to give the RED a try. What is your actual point?

 

I mean, no doubt most average Joes could afford to buy the same computer that Steven King uses to write his novels, but that's not going to turn them into Steven King is it?

 

At the risk of letting loose a real fart in church, I personally don't think any of the gaggle of usual suspects who keep getting the "for example/such as" prefix from Red Fanboys are particularly important in the overall scheme of things.

 

OK they may have produced movies that got bums on seats and even made money, but it seems to me if it wasn't them, it would have simply been "next cab off the rank", and that might have been someone who wouldn't touch video with a bargepole.

 

Who do you think all those people are whose names appear at then end of every feature film?

[Keith Walters]

And really I keep hearing this attitude that since the all movies for the foreseable future will be delivered on DVD so who cares about the picture quality? The fact of the matter is that standard definition DVD is a dying format just like low definition VHS was ten years ago.

Where exactly did you hear this attitude?

Perhaps you need to get out more.

The price of Blu-Ray players is steadily dropping as is the price of good 1920 x 1080 TVs.

The range of Blu-ray titles is steadily increasing so most new films are likely to be Posted in HD and downconverted to superior quality SD for DVD release.

(Not that I can see all that much difference, but there's nowhere to go but up).

DVD currently has the advantage that it is very cheap, but eventually the price of Blu-Ray will be comparable, and they will still play your old DVDs as well as Blu-Ray, so there's not going to be any consumer catastrophe.

And VHS is still getting a good workout for TV recording. They don't sell to many VCRs these days because there's not much demand for new ones, but that doesn't mean people aren't using their existing ones. Contrary to what you read, I certainly don't have any trouble buying blank tapes. I can still get Betamax tapes!

[David Mullen ASC]

A DP who just came back from a visit to Sony in Japan told me that they are working to get the HDCAM-SR format to record 4K data, thus prolonging the life of the format for several more years -- he joked that, considering VHS is now being phased out, that Sony actually won the VHS-Betamax war in the long run! (HDCAM-SR being sort of the descendent of Betamax...)

[Tom Lowe]

I mean, no doubt most average Joes could afford to buy the same computer that Steven King uses to write his novels, but that's not going to turn them into Steven King is it?

 

And who said it would? Certainly not me. You seem to be arguing against some phantom internet posters who go around thinking new cameras will make their scripts and actors and directing and blocking and industry networking skills better. Who are these guys? Where are they? I don't see them. Certainly "they" get lectured here a lot, but do they even exist?

 

IMHO, 99% of people trying to pursue any art, whether it be filmmaking, novel writing, professional oil painting, becoming a pop singer, etc, are likely to fail or fall short. Those are just the odds, I'm afraid.

 

Your King example is an apt one. Something like 100,000 to 150,000 novels are written each year in the United States, but only about a dozen or so new authors will go to print in hardback, if that. The same long odds apply to filmmakers, or rappers, or anyone who wants to reach the top of any given artform. It's true of professional athletes and Hollywood actors as well.

[Stephen Williams]

And who said it would? Certainly not me. You seem to be arguing against some phantom internet posters who go around thinking new cameras will make their scripts and actors and directing and blocking and industry networking skills better. Who are these guys? Where are they? I don't see them. Certainly "they" get lectured here a lot, but do they even exist?

 

IMHO, 99% of people trying to pursue any art, whether it be filmmaking, novel writing, professional oil painting, becoming a pop singer, etc, are likely to fail or fall short. Those are just the odds, I'm afraid.

 

Your King example is an apt one. Something like 100,000 to 150,000 novels are written each year in the United States, but only about a dozen or so new authors will go to print in hardback, if that. The same long odds apply to filmmakers, or rappers, or anyone who wants to reach the top of any given artform. It's true of professional athletes and Hollywood actors as well.

[Stephen Williams]

And who said it would? Certainly not me. You seem to be arguing against some phantom internet posters who go around thinking new cameras will make their scripts and actors and directing and blocking and industry networking skills better. Who are these guys? Where are they? I don't see them. Certainly "they" get lectured here a lot, but do they even exist?

 

IMHO, 99% of people trying to pursue any art, whether it be filmmaking, novel writing, professional oil painting, becoming a pop singer, etc, are likely to fail or fall short. Those are just the odds, I'm afraid.

 

Your King example is an apt one. Something like 100,000 to 150,000 novels are written each year in the United States, but only about a dozen or so new authors will go to print in hardback, if that. The same long odds apply to filmmakers, or rappers, or anyone who wants to reach the top of any given artform. It's true of professional athletes and Hollywood actors as well.

 

Hi Tom,

 

I don't understand, I am sure you have called Epic & Red One a 'game changer'. Looks like shooting on 35mm will still be the best way to get exec's to look at an indie film.

 

Best,

 

Stephen

[Scott Fritzshall]

Who are these guys? Where are they? I don't see them. Certainly "they" get lectured here a lot, but do they even exist?

They're your buddies on Reduser, rubbing their hands together gleefully at the thought of the death of film for some reason.

[David Mullen ASC]

They're your buddies on Reduser, rubbing their hands together gleefully at the thought of the death of film for some reason.

 

One poster's name on RedUser is actually "KILLFILM" if that's any clue... this was a guy who actually said that it was only due to willful ignorance that Hollywood cinematographers wouldn't recognize that 35mm was no better in quality than HDV.

[Emanuel A Guedes]

A DP who just came back from a visit to Sony in Japan told me that they are working to get the HDCAM-SR format to record 4K data, thus prolonging the life of the format for several more years -- he joked that, considering VHS is now being phased out, that Sony actually won the VHS-Betamax war in the long run! (HDCAM-SR being sort of the descendent of Betamax...)

He isn't actually so far away from reality indeed. Funny, but that's the way that it is.

[Emanuel A Guedes]

One poster's name on RedUser is actually "KILLFILM" if that's any clue... this was a guy who actually said that it was only due to willful ignorance that Hollywood cinematographers wouldn't recognize that 35mm was no better in quality than HDV.

These silly anti-euphemisms are too much old fashion and should be out of order.

[Tom Lowe]

One poster's name on RedUser is actually "KILLFILM" if that's any clue... this was a guy who actually said that it was only due to willful ignorance that Hollywood cinematographers wouldn't recognize that 35mm was no better in quality than HDV.

 

Haha. :lol: Yeah, but there are people like this anywhere you go. You can find people on Nikon forums claiming that the a $200 Nikon point-and-shoot "destroys" the $7,000 Canon 1Ds Mark III. It's probably best to just ignore such silliness.

[Stephen Williams]

These silly anti-euphemisms are too much old fashion and should be out of order.

 

Hi,

 

But it's allowed on REDUSER, where very little criticism is tolerated.

[John Sprung]

A DP who just came back from a visit to Sony in Japan told me that they are working to get the HDCAM-SR format to record 4K data, thus prolonging the life of the format for several more years -- ...

Yes, just as Panasonic are also continuing to work on new front ends for their D-5 format. At this point, probably everybody knows better than to make the huge investment it would take to develop a new helical scan tape transport. Helical scan was a necessity back in the days of analog video. Today, we can get the rates we need for the duration of the takes we need using CF's, RAM boxes, or disk drives. Then the bits can be backed up non-real-time using a much more cost effective longitudinal head shifting tape system, such as LTO.

 

Helical scan is an extremely high precision mechanical system, very difficult to make and keep working reliably. That's why an SR deck is $90,000, while an LTO drive is $4,000.

 

 

 

 

-- J.S.

[Tom Lowe]

Hi Tom,

 

I don't understand, I am sure you have called Epic & Red One a 'game changer'....

 

Stephen, it sounds to me like even Sony got the message that the game has changed...

 

A DP who just came back from a visit to Sony in Japan told me that they are working to get the HDCAM-SR format to record 4K data, thus prolonging the life of the format for several more years -- he joked that, considering VHS is now being phased out, that Sony actually won the VHS-Betamax war in the long run! (HDCAM-SR being sort of the descendent of Betamax...)

;)

[Keith Walters]

A DP who just came back from a visit to Sony in Japan told me that they are working to get the HDCAM-SR format to record 4K data, thus prolonging the life of the format for several more years -- he joked that, considering VHS is now being phased out, that Sony actually won the VHS-Betamax war in the long run! (HDCAM-SR being sort of the descendent of Betamax...)

 

They're still whining about that :lol:

The old "Technical excellence lost out to clever marketing" refrain.

Actually if you know the real story of VHS, and not the multi-Blogged version of reality, technical excellence did win out over Corporate Astroturfing, but I don't expect anybody to believe that.

 

Nobody was ever prosecuted for saying the world was not flat, and VHS was designed to overcome the very real technical deficiencies of the original Betamax format. But ... it's a S-s-s-s-sONY!

 

Depends on what they mean by "phased out".

 

In Western countries movie rental/sell-through on VHS has now all but disappeared in favour of DVD. Consequently homeVHS recorders get far less use than previously but many people still prefer the tape format for home recording because its easy and foolproof. (Pretty much the same reason TV studios still like tape). So it's hard to say exacty when it will be phased out. Also, on a straight numeric basis there is a lot more VHS tape being used than HDCAM.

 

Straight VHS VCRs are fairly rare in stores now, being mostly replaced by VHS/DVD combo units, but you can still buy them.

[Tenolian Bell]

What also has to be taken into consideration is that the world does not revolve around RED.

 

RED is one of many camera systems competing for use in motion pictures. RED is not only competing with 35mm, it is also competing with other digital systems. RED supporters assume RED is the only system being improved while everyone else remains the same. RED has certainly raised the bar of competition. Others will have to step up and improve, and they will.

 

 

 

For all those people that say that the camera and the format do not make any difference I have this to say. What they are really ignoring is the IMAX experience where it is all about the camera and the big screen and being inside of the picture. Before the arrival of the Red Epic directors said they tested the Red and decided to go with 35mm film. But after Epic is introduced next year I have no doubt in my mind that directors who reject the Red Epic format will have no choice but to shoot in 70mm IMAX if they want to maintain credible competition.

 

And really I keep hearing this attitude that since the all movies for the foreseable future will be delivered on DVD so who cares about the picture quality? The fact of the matter is that standard definition DVD is a dying format just like low definition VHS was ten years ago.

[Tenolian Bell]

I think this lecture is more important now than ever. People who champion RED have little real perspective on the issue. They feel RED should replace 35mm without the need of a full assessment of its positives and negatives. We often tell RED supporters possible problems with RED being adopted into current production practices. They will go as far as to say the production practices should be changed to accommodate RED. As though RED has some divine right to become the commonly used camera system.

 

And we have read this same lecture here DOZENS AND DOZENS of times, if not hundreds or thousands of times.

 

We don't need to hear the lecture for the Red One. We won't be needing that lecture for the 5D2 either (although I guarantee you it's coming... Walter is probably heading for the Canon forums right now to "lay down the law" to all those delusional 5D2 shooters...).

[Tenolian Bell]

Doesn't look as though Blu-ray may have much of a chance. 90% of disc sales are still standard def DVD. It just turned out to be a technology that is good enough at a cheaper price.

 

Blu-ray has competition that DVD did not have when it was first introduced. High Def video on demand, internet video downloading and internet video streaming.

 

While its true Blu-ray has far better quality than any of these other formats. Convenience is just as important.

 

The price of Blu-Ray players is steadily dropping as is the price of good 1920 x 1080 TVs.

The range of Blu-ray titles is steadily increasing so most new films are likely to be Posted in HD and downconverted to superior quality SD for DVD release.

(Not that I can see all that much difference, but there's nowhere to go but up).

[Emanuel A Guedes]

Hi,

 

But it's allowed on REDUSER, where very little criticism is tolerated.

I know. Not by all, but especially as often as a few teenagers are used to a sort of an odd cult there. The problem is when this is as contagious as an epidemic. Beyond that, there are not so unusual company interests. And I have all the gang of my partners banned over there. Each day I am arguing into my inner circle about its relativity. Who knows, may I have some success with my latin? Not so sure though in any way other than a part of it.

[Chris Kenny]

A few points:

 

1. Rental prices on digital gear aren't 1%/day. They're typically in the 3-5% range (maybe a little lower on very expensive digital gear), reflecting the fact that it gets replaced more often. Red rental rates have settled at about this level, and there's no particular reason to think they'll go much lower.

 

2. Those declaring that Blu-Ray is a dead-end are judging by a standard that has no relationship to reality. It took DVD six or seven years to pass VHS, and that's considered one of the most successful consumer format adoptions in history. It's way too early to say Blu-Ray is a failure. And if it ultimately is, it won't be because people will stay with SD DVD forever. It'll be because people transition to digital downloads, many of which will be HD.

 

3. Obviously anyone who thinks their movie is going to be a success because just they shot it with a certain camera isn't thinking too clearly. But this is not the same thing as saying that acquisition format doesn't matter. If you're trying to shoot a movie that might actually get distributed, and it doesn't hold up on the big screen or at least at 1080p (which, remember, is at least as much resolution as a typical theatrical release print), you're not even in the game (unless there are some uncommon extenuating circumstances).

[Adrian Sierkowski]

holding up on the big screen is relative though-- Iraq in Fragments, a Documentary was shot on the DVX and projected. There's also Inland Empire (or Island Empire, I get it confused) off of the PD-170. These are somewhat isolated cases, I know, but it also shows it's a marriage between concept approach talent and format which act as a litmus as to whether something holds up on any screen.