The Pianist vs. The Passion

[Phil Rhodes]

Hi,

 

Try cricket.... the sport with meal breaks!

 

Phil

[Jonathan Spear]

Hi,

 

Try cricket.... the sport with meal breaks!

 

Phil

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

lol.

 

:lol:

[Matt Pacini]

Yep, I just don't get it at all.

I can understand PLAYING sports, but the whole spectator thing, I've never understood.

 

"Yeah, our team!!!'

 

Uh, your team is made up of guys from all over the planet who are on that team just because they bid higher than someone else.

Why fans are loyal to teams, when the players clearly aren't, is just wacky!

 

Matt Pacini

[Brad Grimmett]

Yep, I just don't get it at all.

I can understand PLAYING sports, but the whole spectator thing, I've never understood.

 

"Yeah, our team!!!'

 

Uh, your team is made up of guys from all over the planet who are on that team just because they bid higher than someone else.

Why fans are loyal to teams, when the players clearly aren't, is just wacky!

 

Matt Pacini

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I guess the sports fanatics probably say the same thing about us film fanatics. Of course, we're much more sophisticated than they are! ;)

[Nate Downes]

Only one mentions Mother Mary (the others say it was Mary, mother of James) being there at the crucifiction, none of them mention her being there for the whipping and beating, or wiping up his blood, etc.

 

Actually, if you read the oldest versions of these texts (Coptic, Goetic, or Gnostic) it is clear that Mother Mary and Mary, mother if James, are one and the same. There is also reference and even a tabernacle to James, son of Joseph, brother of Jesus.

[David Mullen ASC]

Yes, I'm aware of that (Jesus and James being "half" brothers), I guess having Mary being the mother of James also didn't fare well with the Church who wanted her to be a perpetual virgin?

 

It's just that POINTEDLY saying that "Mary, mother of James, was also there at the crucifiction" in three of the Gospels is rather odd if they meant to say that it was the same Mary that is Jesus' mother. Why not say "his mother Mary was there"? Parenthetically saying "mother of James" sounds like an attempt to clarify that it wasn't Mother Mary.

[Phil Rhodes]

Hi,

 

All this balls is why I'm impatient with religion. It's one thing to hold up a book and say "this is interesting," it's entirely another to say "this is the one and only truth, despite its inconsistencies, and you should believe it utterly or you'll suffer for eternity." That's just... rude. If religious people are going to say that to me, I reserve the right to tell them they're a bunch of easily-led morons. At least science is inherently self-critical - religion is arrogant.

 

Phil

[David Mullen ASC]

This is why religion is better at dealing with the "whys" and not the "hows" of life. Leave how the universe works to science and leave the moral guidelines to religion.

 

The history of Christianity is something that's becoming more interesting to me lately (well, history in general, I've just finished two books in a row touching on the American Revolution) because it reminds me that religion is a rather evolutionary thing and the Bible was written and rewritten and heavily edited over the centuries, sometimes for political rather than spiritual reasons. I'm always fascinated by history because it tries to explain how we ended up where we are today, even something as simple as why we drive on the right side of the road in America but on the left side in many other countries.

 

It's always interesting how people conveniently ignore one "rule" in the Bible but not another. Some conservatives say that homosexuality is a violation of God's law in the Old Testament, but it seems to be considered slightly worse than eating shellfish if you read it. The number of Old Testament laws we DON'T follow can, well, fill a book (I guess it DOES fill a book...) Even Jesus spoke about this problem of following the letter of religious law to ridiculous extremes yet ignoring the heart of the law.

[mark leuchter]

Very interesting for me to read these very articulate and well-informed meditations on the film, dogma, religion, spirituality, etc. Cinematographers, it seems, are quite well prepared to engage in critical evaluation of Biblical materials from the scholarly, academic perspective. If only my academic peers were as handy with f-stops.

 

Here's something to consider -- St. Paul mentions the Risen Christ many times. But he never ONCE mentions the Resurrection. Not once. Yet the Resurrection is at the heart of the Synoptic Gospels (Matthew, Mark, and Luke). Pauls' writings are generally dated to BEFORE the writing of the Gosepl texts.

 

Discuss.

 

 

 

Mark Leuchter

Assistant Professor of Bible (Hebrew College; Newton MA)

Visiting Professor of Religiousd Studies (Northeastern Univ.; Boston MA)

[Andy O'Neil]

Get out your mugs, syrup lovers, the sap's about to be poured.

 

The history of Christianity is something that's becoming more interesting to me lately (well, history in general,

 

David, I don't mean to single you out in this discussion, but you've made an impression. You're the only person in this forum (out of 2500+) whose work I have seen. A little aside> I wish that would change, I really would like to see more of other people's work around here. I'll make an effort to do the same. Let me know, everyone, if your work is out there.

 

So David, I'm curious. You struck a chord with your above quotation. I too am interested in delving into this history. It would be awesome to sit down, let you read my "Intervention" script and put our brains together. I wish all of us here could do this, collaborate, help make each other's "dreams" come true. Of course this all sounds "gummy bearish," but I don't care. I'm young. I'm allowed to be a little gummy. Well, so are old people.

 

That being said, you must have a dream, David, a visual opus in mind. Am I wrong? What is it? What pictures do you really want to paint for others to see? As a matter of fact, I'd like to hear everyone's dream. You all must have one. Even if none of us ever have the chance to collaborate, I'd at least like to be a part of noticing, baring witness to the primordial oozings of future endeavors. At least give me that.

 

Thanks.

 

P.S. Many apologies for the excess syrup that may have spilled on the floor. I'll clean it up later.

[David Mullen ASC]

I haven't been thinking of my own projects in a while, so I am rusty. I had an idea for a film about the WW2 Japanese-American internment centered around a family piano that had to be sold before the family went off to the camps, only to be rediscovered fifty years later in someone's house. The person who finds it becomes obsessed with getting it back but it's not for sale because now it's become tied to some new family's memories. So it would be a film about memory and our attachment to objects, and of course, the internment.

 

I've always wanted to do a film about the Carthaginian general Hannibal and his crossing of the Italian Alps with elephants, but I think Oliver Stone has already stolen the image of the horse versus elephant...

 

If I was smart enough, I'd write an engrossing drama about the Constitutional Convention of 1787 styled along the lines of "Glengary Glen Ross"...

 

There are a number of science fiction novels that would be fun to adapt, like Philip K. Dick's "Ubik" or Theodore Sturgeon's "More Than Human".

[Brad Grimmett]

If I was smart enough, I'd write an engrossing drama about the Constitutional Convention of 1787 styled along the lines of "Glengary Glen Ross"...

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

David,

Head on down to the WGA and register that idea now! I'd certainly want to see it. Sounds like an Aaron Sorkin type of project, which is a good thing....

I also really like the internment camp idea. That's a subject most people don't hear or know enough about.

Keep those ideas coming....I'm taking notes. :ph34r:

Edited December 4, 2004 by grimmett

[J. Lamar King IMPOSTOR]

That show "History Detectives" had a story about Japanese citizens being detained in San Francisco I think, while trying to immigrate. It seems like they were hearded into small buildings and kept there forever. I thought that could be expanded into a feature.

 

Of course "Snow Falling on Cedars" touched on the subject of the WWII internments and the way Japanese-Americans were robbed of their homes and possesions. It really only scratched the surface though. IMHO, probably Robert Richardson's best work and certainly in my top 5 of all time best cinematography.

[Jonathan Spear]

""It would be awesome to sit down, let you read my "Intervention" script and put our brains together.""

 

Title's got my attention already.

What's it about?

 

""As a matter of fact, I'd like to hear everyone's dream. You all must have one. Even if none of us ever have the chance to collaborate, I'd at least like to be a part of noticing, baring witness to the primordial oozings of future endeavors. At least give me that.""

 

My dream is to get a 10 minute meeting with movie composer Howard Shore so I could pitch him my screenplay.

I'm kind of fed up trying to deal with executive producers' asstistants 'busy' schedules. <_<

 

An even bigger dream come true would be to organize a group of people with a common desire - filmmaking, more importantly, making THE movie of all time -and pick each other's brain untill we've molded the perfect story (i'm a firm believer in 'the one' i.e. : the one film anybody can relate too because it digs so deep into our nature and desires - the ultimate movie about human nature and the history/legacy of Man) , get it down on paper and turn it into a movie. No studios, exec's, producers etc. Just a group of people with something to say, few expensive cameras and lenses and a boatload of EXR 200T 5293, 5274 and 5217.

 

(Pop) Punk Filmmaking, if you will. :ph34r:

 

Could be pretty cool.

Edited December 4, 2004 by TSM

[Jonas]

Amen to that!  I'm basically an atheist, but I do believe in being a good person and helping people, and blah blah blah.  But some people tell me that I'm going to hell because of my beliefs (or non-beliefs).  It just sounds like hatred to me.  It's this kind of hypocrisy that has always pushed me away from religion.  More people have been killed over religious beliefs than any other reason.  So they kill because they.....why do they kill again?  I just don't get it.

Sorry, rant over.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I too have been told that I'll go to hell because of my non-beliefs. You know it's really sad... for them. Not me. They are the one living their lives on a big, fat lie - IN MY OPINION! Let each have their own faith!

[Jonathan Spear]

I too have been told that I'll go to hell because of my non-beliefs. You know it's really sad... for them. Not me. They are the one living their lives on a big, fat lie - IN MY OPINION! Let each have their own faith!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

...the irony of it all, is that a true Christian should understand that it is not his or her place to decide whether or not you go to hell. I think people tend to "forget" to apply what they preach to themselves.

 

:rolleyes:

 

If there's any judement to be had, it certainly won't come from a mortal earthling.

We're all sinners anyways, right? (or are we...?)

 

IMO, it's also important to read in betwen the lines of the bible, see what's changed over the years - rewrites, omitted texts, etc... and most importantly, SEE WHAT THE BIBLE -DOESN'T- MENTION (have human nature and understanding surpassed biblical wisdom? is the bible holding us back or taking us forward? what happened to Christ during his 20's and why wasn't this documented, what was going on in the rest of the world during the perilous times of the Old and New Testaments). In filmmaking terms, if you take your 5 year old to the movies and tell him/her that what they're watching on the screen is real, it will hold true until said child gets his/her hands on the special DVD behind the scenes featurette of the making of the film.

 

I mean think about it....people -believed- the world was flat at one point.

They believed without a doubt.

 

It seems like religion and God are just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to understanding the profound human complexities found in us all.

 

:o

 

Now there's an idea for a good film.

[Sam Wells]

"The history of Christianity is something that's becoming more interesting to me lately "

 

I got very interested in this also as a kind of side effect of researching my Joan of Arc film

(my interests just sort of kept going backwards in time).

 

I found John Dominic Crossan's books to be especially valuable, not because I dogmatically "agree" with him, but because he's such a good and provocative writer. (Even his scholarly books are not written in "academic jargonism")

 

I'd especially reccomend "Who Killed Jesus" in light of the Mel Gibson film.

 

Eventually I got way off this track and onto other histories that related to films I wanted to do and am doing (Vietnam's history - I never expected to end up there !)

 

Also, my "historical Jesus" reading yielded literary ideas but not visual ones, but I was browsing Crossan's new book "In Search of Paul", co-written with an archeologist; it's nothing if not deeply visually descriptive..... hmm...

 

-Sam

[mark leuchter]

Folks...check out this article I wrote on the current discussion:

 

http://detroit.jewish.com/modules.php?name...=print&sid=1323

 

Mark

[David Mullen ASC]

A nicely written piece -- thanks for the perspective!

[Jonathan Spear]

Someone could 'challenge' Gibson's film with another biblical story...one that could take place in the near future...in a dark, gothic metropolitain setting.

 

(Revelation 13:16-18)

 

:blink:

 

Hmmm...

 

:ph34r:

 

...But on the other hand, a project like that would definately have a blasphemous after taste to it.

 

Should there be a limit when it comes to filmmaking? Where do you draw the line?

 

Look at what faranheit 9/11 did. "Jaws" made me give up ocean swimming for most of my childhood <_< . ET gave many of us hope that we aren't alone.

Imagine a movie that acts like a vice. Conrols you. You leave the theater with a different reality and P.O.V. on life. Suddenly, the world doesn't seem so pleasant and safe anymore...

 

Scary...

[Matt Pacini]

David, that's a great idea about the piano story.

 

I was trying to develop a script around the true story of Beethoven's pianoforte being salvaged from a dump in Israel, but just could never get it going anywhere without it looking too much like The Red Violin.

(Nobody knows how it got there, by the way.)

 

As far as the religious comments, I've been on both sides of the issues, so I can see both sides.

It's a tough call.

Just because someone doesn't want to hear the info, doesn't mean that the person isn't genuinely trying to help you (in their perspective).

You could argue it's the same situation with any moral or political issue; many high school kids don't particularly want to be "preached" at concerning safe sex, for instance, or littering, or driving safe, etc., but the view is, it's absolutely important, so their desire to not hear the information takes a back seat.

 

You gotta realize, these people view it as their duty to warn people, in the same way, as if someone gave you a note, saying that your neighbor's house was going to burn down tomorrow, you would go over and try to convince them to do something about it, wether or not they believed you, or wanted to hear what you were saying.

Granted, the tactfulness is often lacking, but they really do believe this stuff, and really do believe that it's their absolute duty to warn people, in the same way that people who are passionate about political causes feel the need to warn people, and convince people of things they don't believe.

So as annoying as some of them can be, I can understand it.

I do wish they'd show a bit more tact though, and I think TV preachers are for the most part phonies, and generally nothing whatsoever like your garden-variety local minister.

(Just throwing that in there, since many people are using these guys as examples of what they think "Christians" must be like).

 

Matt Pacini

[Max Jacoby]

Have you seen Michael Winner's 1968 classic Hannibal Brooks? I'm a big fan of that movie, certainly Winner's finest moment- it's a GENUINELY good film!

 

Apparently Michael Winner was Marlon Brando's favourite director. The reason is that when they first met, Winner told him: : "You are a great actor, Mr. Brando. I am not a great director, so you just do whatever you like.'

[steveb40]

"I was trying to develop a script around the true story of Beethoven's pianoforte being salvaged from a dump in Israel, but just could never get it going anywhere without it looking too much like The Red Violin. (Nobody knows how it got there, by the way.)"

 

that's an interesting tale. where'd you read that? his "fortepianos" are in several locations. of course taking on that kind of subject would require a considerable amount of study into music; beethoven's work is a force to be reckoned with and only those brave enough to listen to every piece and study all 32 piano sonatas as well as the last quartets should make a film about that mighty giant...

 

good luck!

[Matt Pacini]

I can't remember where I read about his pianoforte in the dump.

It wasn't something that happened recently, but it wasn't 100 years ago either.

Nobody knows how it got there, so I mean "making up' the backstory about it.

(The truth is probably not as interesting as a fictional portrayal).

 

As far tackling The Master, it would be challenging, but I could deal wit h it!

I'm a musician (started at age 3), my family (on my fathers side) has a long history of music, going all the way back to the 18th century operatic composer Guiseppi Pacini, who composed hundreds of operas, which were popular at the time, but fell out of style.

Just recently he's been "rediscovered". There are a few CD's of his operas out.

I've read tons of stuff on Beethoven, including the Schindler biography (he knew him), and I have the music to all his quartets, piano sonatas, full scores to 3 of his symphonies, etc. etc.

 

I was actually somewhat dissapointed with "Immortal Beloved".

Oldman is a brilliant actor, but I've never seen a non-musician ever portray a REAL musician realistically in a film, and in Beethoven's case, the level of passion he obtained is leaps & bounds beyond any other musician in history.

It's not just a matter of making the right facial expressions.

There's a certain state of mind, that I think only a musician can get to, that just can't be faked.

The other thing is that the film was not even historically accurate, (although not as much fiction as there was in "Amadeus", which is about 90% rubbish. - Read "the Mozart Myths" if you want to see just how much false urban legend there is regarding Mozart.)

 

Anyway, I'd love to make a film about Beethoven!

Pretty much zero chance anyone's gonna fund another Beethoven film though...

 

Matt Pacini

 

P.S. I had an interesting experience when I was reading the Schindler' Betthoven Biography.

In one of Beethovens' conversation books (because he was deaf) there was mention of "I gave Pacini the music", but no other details!!!

I've often wondered if this had something to do with my ancestor, but I have no idea. I wish I knew!

Edited December 8, 2004 by Matt Pacini

[Guest David Lawrence]

One of my 'themes' I feel compelled to mount my soap-box for is titles/captions.

 

'The {Passion} of The Christ'

 

Where is the {Passion}???

 

As some of you say, I was bored, from the opening scenes, to the final crawls, I was hoping for some passion, some human feeling, some connection, some involvement, some empathy, some recognition, some love, but no, there was not even a glimmer.

 

Left without cinematic emotional fodder, one grows hungry, and yes, mean. [basic human nature!]

 

I tried really hard to find a generous, positive, likeable aspect to viewing this 'film' but couldn't, my boil-down was that it was poorly directed.

 

There is no story to speak of, just one guy who gets singled out to be beaten and then crucified. Zero character development, not even cardboard cutouts could be as glyph-like as the 'people' in this 'tale'.

 

It occurs to me mel g and ss have the same take on film making, story first...

 

The people are the story, the story is not the thing, it cannot exist without the characters, there needs to be acting, actors taking the part of the story that involves them and making it real from inside them, not by a 'director' moving them about like soft pink chess pieces.

 

Titles are like captions in that they provoke a sub-supra conscious reaction, an automatic extrapolation of the meaning of the thing. Call it 'The Death of Jesus' and I wouldn't have a problem with the title, but that still wouldn't make it a 'movie', that takes directing skill, which is just another name for passion?

 

I far prefer 'Last Temptation of Christ' for an involving movie.

 

ss was trying to tell a 'Hollywood story' in Shindler's List, and for emotional maxima, structured the storyline for a whammy finish. I believe a film about Schindler is still due, his rep in the ss film is ghost-like, maintaing an inhuman distance untill the closing scene with orchestra and choir of angels, where he breaks down and blubs as a cue for the audience to do likewise.

 

It would be amazing to see a really good actor going from dynamic, callous, entrepreneurial money-centric to someone confronted with shocking mortality, to developing a humane conscience, to fraught with anxiety at being discovered and thwarted in his plans to rescue as many people as he could.

 

Should be a few ideas in there to spark a reaction?

 

David Lawrence