Red and Documentary Work

Oli Soravia · July 1, 2009

I've just been approached about shooting a documentary on the Red. My information regarding the production is limited as of now (meeting is tomorrow), but I was hoping someone here might be able to share some experiences with doc work and the Red. I do know that my choice in cameras is non-negotioable, and given the rate I was offered along with some other cues, I will probably not have an assistant.

The Red is not exactly the first camera that springs to mind when I think about documentary / verite-style shooting - in fact it's toward the bottom of the list, but that's not to say it can't be done. I imagine a backpack full of batteries and drives will be in my near future.

Am I correct in thinking that I can use super 16 lenses in 2k window mode? I would like to push for either that or switching to a b4 mount. Carrying a selection of short zooms or a prime set in the field for 4k would be murder, let alone the other issues that go along with that...

I've got to figure out a decent configuration for balanced handheld shooting-- something that I can put on shoulder all day if need be. No doubt that the smaller s16 or b4 zooms will help...

Regarding the circumstanzes you have to deal with, I would probably think about the possibility, whether the final result has the chance to become as good as it normally would but under better conditions? The RED is really heavy in handheld mode, and as far as I see the cam, not made at all for a documentary working style, even with the new shoulder rig and equipped with prime lenses only. Without any assistant (instead of at least 2) it can become a nightmare to do this job. Good luck anyway. OLI

A. Whitehouse · July 2, 2009

Perhaps use one of those "T" shaped hot swap adapters for two "V" lock batteries to avoid re-boots? Granted, that's a way of making the wrong tool do the job.

-- J.S.

In an 8 day shoot with the RED a month ago I didn't have a single problem I can think of where the battery change was all that much of an issue (Build 17). Now that the camera displays an image during bootup its pretty pain free except that you have to deal with a big Logo in the middle of the screen. I found the sluggishness of the EVF to come up a bit annoying during those bootups, it blinks on and off, but the AC and Loader managed the changes really well and it wasn't anywhere near the problem it was last year. The cameras heavy and long enough as is without another battery on board.

Matt did you record sound to camera? I like the 535 harleys but did they make it difficult to reach the zoom? Or did your Assistant handle that? Shooting with a similar rig in mid August ( with larger, heavier zooms unfortunately) and every time they mention handheld I get a twinge in my neck.

Thanks for your feedback Matt, interesting read.

Keith Walters · July 2, 2009

The irony here is that for years now, various manufacturers of "digital cinematography" cameras have heavily emphasised how their products are not just "re-labelled ENG cameras".

Now people are finding out that the "ENG format" actually has an awful lot going for it, which might explain why the basic design has not really changed in almost 30 years.

Matt Irwin · July 2, 2009

In an 8 day shoot with the RED a month ago I didn't have a single problem I can think of where the battery change was all that much of an issue (Build 17). Now that the camera displays an image during bootup its pretty pain free except that you have to deal with a big Logo in the middle of the screen. I found the sluggishness of the EVF to come up a bit annoying during those bootups, it blinks on and off, but the AC and Loader managed the changes really well and it wasn't anywhere near the problem it was last year. The cameras heavy and long enough as is without another battery on board.
Matt did you record sound to camera? I like the 535 harleys but did they make it difficult to reach the zoom? Or did your Assistant handle that? Shooting with a similar rig in mid August ( with larger, heavier zooms unfortunately) and every time they mention handheld I get a twinge in my neck.

Thanks for your feedback Matt, interesting read.

Normally the long boot time is a just a camera quirk that can be dealt with but when we're lean and quick like that shoot was and say.... the camera crashes right as my producer is saying "quick get this!", well.... that ruins my day.

Sometimes we would have the double battery mount filled with a battery on one side and the drive with a t-clip on the other in order to balance the camera out for handheld. Too much weight on the top of the camera screws up the inertia.

The harleys actually saved me big time. I'd often keep my right arm locked in a 90 degree angle and use my left hand to deal with both zoom and focus. Sounds odd, but it worked. By day 2 I ended up ditching the eye piece for handheld and used the monitor rigged right next to the mattebox via an israeli arm off the rods-- that was the ticket to balancing out the rig because I could slide the camera back and forth a lot more and fine-tune quicker, not to mention the extra peripheral vision. (a back-belt w/ brandalier shoulder pad also played a big part)

I think there's a picture somewhere of me handheld on horseback with the full battle rig... if I find it i'll post it.

We had a local Tampa soundman (Kevin Daughtry-- very cool guy and great at what he does) and recorded double system as per production. Though he was telling me that he had mixed a feature where they successfully recorded good, useable sound on-board a Red... apparently the first to ever do that. Some special process or equipment-- can't quite remember as this was months ago.

The irony here is that for years now, various manufacturers of "digital cinematography" cameras have heavily emphasised how their products are not just "re-labelled ENG cameras".
Now people are finding out that the "ENG format" actually has an awful lot going for it, which might explain why the basic design has not really changed in almost 30 years.

No kidding! :blink:

Matt Irwin · July 2, 2009

Thanks for the update Matt. I'm about to start a doc using my Red and am a little concerned about the set up. I've done many docs in the past and have always used EFP set ups, 2/3 broadcast zooms etc. The Red set-up is a much heavier proposition and my glass I'm afraid may be too unwieldly for any fast verite action. My Angenieux 25-250 is not really meant for hand held. It says T3.2 on the iris ring but I'm guessing it's really 3.9. And the closest it focuses is about 3 1/2 feet. I've also just received the Red Pro Primes, they're fast at T1.8 but are big. And it also means putting on a big mattebox and a FF.

I've got a Fuji 13X4.5 HD zoom but then I'm at 2K and that sort of defeats the purpose. So I'm in the process of trying to rethink the whole thing. Maybe just do interviews and tripod beauty shots on Red and go with a different camera for hand-held b-roll (although I will have a Mantis and an Easy Rig). Plus I have to travel with this kit.

Hey Ken,

I think interviews and key shots on the red mixed with a eng or small cam for running around sounds like a good call. For what it's worth, my AC on this shoot worked in the camera dept. on "Leverage" and was telling me they mixed EX-1's and EX-3's with Reds, even intercutting them in coverage. Depending on your delivery format, mixing cameras could work very well.

With a mantis and an easy rig though, many things are possible. I've heard of some operators using a red with a 12:1 Optimo on an easy rig, so your 10:1 could definitely work... if your back can keep up. :P

John Sprung · July 5, 2009

For what it's worth, my AC on this shoot worked in the camera dept. on "Leverage" and was telling me they mixed EX-1's and EX-3's with Reds, even intercutting them in coverage.

Interesting -- Did they shoot the Reds in 2K, or did they do something like using ND on the EX's to match the DOF? Or maybe using the EX's for tight stuff only? Intercutting shots of similar size and distance, the DOF difference would be hard to miss if the Red was 4K.

-- J.S.