Arriflex 16S battery options

[Annie Wengenroth]

So I recently purchased an Arriflex 16S package. However, I'm not sure what to do about the battery situation. The guy I bought it from did not sell me a battery because the one *he* had with it would not hold a charge, so he ended up throwing it out. I guess it was bad enough that it couldn't even be re-celled.

 

Anyway, he *is* sending me a battery charger, but it's a 6volt charger and not 12. Since I plan to run the camera with the mag on it (well, most of the time anyway), I'm assuming this is going to be a problem. I've read that it needs at least 8 volts with the mag, but I've also heard that it needs 12. At any rate, 6 won't cut it, right? Or am I misunderstanding something here?

 

Just to see what I might be able to do instead, I looked around online and found a 12 volt, 5 amp battery with charger at Du-All cameras. It has that 4-pin XLR-type connector but I'm figuring it would be a safer bet and I will probably go for it even if the camera has to be converted.

 

In the meantime I was going to put the charger up on ebay, or maybe even on the classifieds topic in this forum, since I'm figuring I might not need it but someone else might want it. I can also use the batteries at work but I'd like to eventually have a good setup of my own.

 

So, what do you think I should do? Are there any other Arriflex 16S (or SB/ST) owners on this board and if so, what do you use for battery power? Bear in mind that I may eventually get a different motor as well, either constant or crystal if I can afford it.

 

I was going to just call the people at Arri and ask them but figured I would ask here first. I checked the manual as well but found it a little vague.

 

...Well, there's always the car battery! :P

[John Sprung]

IIRC, the S was an oddball, an 8 volt system. With a wild motor, running from a 12 volt source should be OK provided you don't accidentally go off the high end on the tach. But for a torque motor, going that far over the design voltage might be dangerous.

 

The S was designed back before there were Ni-Cad's, so it would have been four lead acid cells at 2.1 volts for a design voltage of 8.4. Using modern Ni-Cad or Ni-MH, which are 1.2 volts per cell, the same design voltage can be made using seven cells.

 

 

 

-- J.S.

[Annie Wengenroth]

Hmm. Okay that clears things up a bit. Thanks! I have to do a little homework about the motor and see what my finances are looking like, so it will be a little while on that. I think I'll ask the engineers at work about batteries and see what they can put together for me. We have Arriflex SBs at school but I never took a close look at the batteries, just grabbed them off the shelf and popped em in. Isn't there one kind where you can switch it from 8, 12, and 14? Or am I making that up?

 

OR would it be worth it for me to just get 7 of these Ni-Cads and just wire em together? I've heard of people doing that too.

 

This is pretty funny because I haven't even gotten the camera yet, I'm just trying to plan ahead and make sure I've got my ass covered in the most cost-efficient yet, um, efficient, way possible.

[Nathan Milford]

I have the original ARRI variable motor as well as the tobin TXM-22 crystal motor. I power them both with 12 volts. You should not try to power the original ARRI constant speed motor at 12volts.

 

I started off with a Du-All battery and one of thier banana to XLR4 pigtails.

 

I have since modified the camera myself to take a 4-pin XLR (much like the Du-All modification, but with some personal extras). I have ditched the Du-All battery and created an adaptor to use DeWalt batteries ($50 bucks in any hardware store and they charge in an hour) much in the style of Doug Underdahl's adaptor for the 16SR.

 

For the most part you can use any 12v source with a decent AH draw.

 

You should also note that if you have magazines, your torque motor(s) may or may not need a modification. Tobin will mod them to handle 12v. Sometimes they don't need it, other times they burn out. Mine just worked *shrugs*.

 

Either way, you should send your camera to the brothers Gal at Du-All and get an overhaul if you cannot get a proper maintenance history of the camera from the previous owner. If you have no history, assume the gears are dry and the current draw is high. You spend that little bit of money and you'll wont have any reason to question the camera in the middle of that money shot.

 

A note if there is no service history (this is to anyone else who plans on buy a camera, online or otherwise): If the money for the camera is held in escrow or even before you offer to buy the thing make sure you can find a way to split the cost of the overhaul, or even better have it built into the price of the camera. If there is no history see if you can have it checked out by a professional before the purchase. Du-All will probably quote you $600 for the overhaul. We (here at AbelCine) will quote you between $1500 and $3000 (depending on the condition, parts needed and model/generation of camera) for an overhaul of an Aaton 16mm camera.

 

The little ARRI is a wonderful little camera. Sounds like a blender, but it gets the job done. Get the tobin crystal motor and some nice glass (you did get an SB, hopefully?) and you should be set for any MOS work, tabletop, sports, nature and music videos. Try not to get your hopes up about a Super 16 modification, though. I've never seen an attractive super 16 modifcation.

[Guest Andy Sparaco]

12 volt "Dry cells" found in farm applications and for lanterns work but cannot be recharged. Gelpak batteries used in weather ballons work well. Avoid Lead acid wet-cells like motocycle batteries-you can't get them on an airplane. The Dewalt battery holder solution is by far the best solution in terms of cost and accessibility. Du-all also offers a fiber optic screen replacement of the ground glass which is very worthwhile.

Jorge@cinematechnic.com in Miami is also a good repair/modification resource. He has been invovled in PL-mount and Super 16 conversion of the Arri-S. As well as Arri-Sr PL and super 16 conversions for folks like the NFL.

 

The first dollar you spend should be for a tobin motor.

 

The torque motor converion is nothing more then a resistor inserted into the circuit which steps down 12 volts to 8 volts. Any electronics or TV repair geek can do it for you.

[Guest Andy Sparaco]

12 volt "Dry cells" found in farm applications and for lanterns work but cannot be recharged. Gelpak batteries used in weather ballons work well. Avoid Lead acid wet-cells like motocycle batteries-you can't get them on an airplane. The Dewalt battery holder solution is by far the best solution in terms of cost and accessibility. Du-all also offers a fiber optic screen replacement of the ground glass which is very worthwhile.

Jorge@cinematechnic.com in Miami is also a good repair/modification resource. He has been invovled in PL-mount and Super 16 conversion of the Arri-S. As well as Arri-Sr PL and super 16 conversions for folks like the NFL.

 

 

 

The torque motor conversion is nothing more then a resistor inserted into the circuit which steps down 12 volts to 8 volts. Any electronics or TV repair geek can do it for you.

 

 

 

A very good idea is the replacement of the rubber coupling collar which joins the camera drive shaft to the motor drive shaft. Like many cameras of this era it is a friction fitting and slips as it gets worn.

 

If you make the investment in a Tobin mototr (which is advised) you want a snug fit. The first dollar you spend after an overhaul should be for a tobin motor.

 

The suggestion for an overhaul would cover that and is also highly recommended. The Arri-S has a lot in common with a sewing machine and needs some TLC occasionally.

 

It is most often puchased used without much activity for years and years and need some lube, just like we all do from time to time. :rolleyes:

Edited December 23, 2004 by Andy Sparaco

[John Sprung]

The torque motor converion is nothing more then a resistor inserted into the circuit  which steps down 12 volts to 8 volts. Any electronics or TV repair geek can do it for  you.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

How many ohms? How many watts? Mebbe I can send her one from my collection. Another approach if we knew the maximum amps the torque motor would draw would be to do the drop with a string of forward biased diodes.

 

 

 

-- J.S.

[John Sprung]

I have ditched the Du-All battery and created an adaptor to use DeWalt batteries

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It doesn't have to be DeWalt. You could go with any of the cordless tool brands. Bosch, Panasonic, Milwaukee, and Makita are good choices. I've heard bad things about the DeWalt tools, just not quite as bad as Ryobi. I have 12 volt Makita stuff. Starting fresh, I'd look for a make that's easier to open up and replace the cells.

 

 

 

-- J.S.

[Annie Wengenroth]

Wow. :unsure: Well thank you for all your help. Guess I should call Du-All as soon as I get the camera? Maybe I'll have them look at it (my dad's gonna kill me: "What? You just got it and now you have to send it off again?!" Oh well.) and then perhaps get one of those drill batteries as a backup type of thing. Not sure yet, I don't quite know what I'm in for. The guy who sold it to me did say that the mag is really clean so that's good, at least I might not have to worry about that, and he said the camera "works and is clean" which could mean a number of things. Fun!!!

 

:sigh: I'm kinda kicking myself now because when I was looking around for one of these, Du-All was actually selling one on ebay for $1125 plus shipping that they had just overhauled so it had a clean bill of health. Well, I got mine for less, but now I'm gonna be spending about $800 or so anyway.

 

Well, what can ya do. I don't need my furniture anyway. I guess I'll just have to start stripping in South Carolina to support my camera habit. :P

 

Don't worry, I'm kidding! If that's how it must be done, then that is how I will do it. I have no doubt that it will be worth it. Like one of my professors said, owning a film camera is kind of like owning a car. You just have to keep on top of maintenance and be willing to put time and money in to fix it if anything goes wrong. Oddly enough the more money I see myself putting into this, the more I find myself caring about it...who woulda thunk.

 

By the way I have the 16S, not the SB, so it's a different turret. I've heard that my turret can be converted though. If I luck out with some current job situations I might spring for it, particularly since I would eventually want a zoom lens for this baby. (And NOT the Ang. 12-120 that everybody hates, I'll do better...!)

 

I'm not sweating the Super 16 conversion right now. I would rather work with what I've got and see what I can do. I stepped up from a Rex-3 because 1. I wanted the ability to shoot 400' and not be limited by a springwound motor, and 2. I wanted a bigger camera (oddly enough!) that had more options for shooting handheld, rather than just using the pistol grip like the Bolex. (tends to get pretty heavy on the wrist, and that's *without* a 400' mag)

 

So, this is going to break my wallet but it is important to me and I want to figure out the best possible solution to make this into an extremely good camera package even without the ability for sync sound. Hell, I'm a sound designer, I'm sure I can figure out some creative ways around that issue, if Robert Rodriguez can do it so can I!

 

It's strange to me how people are always bitching about how expensive it is to shoot film and how expensive the equipment is, and I always want to tell them, Look... everything adds up. Even KNITTING is expensive. My mom is always complaining that even YARN can cost a fortune, would you rather knit?? :P I mean, if you don't want to spend any money in life on the things that are important to you, what the hell kind of a way is that to live?

 

In conclusion, I had way too much coffee before I wrote this post and also, just think, it could be worse- we could be spending our life's earnings on yarn to make ugly sweaters!

[Annie Wengenroth]

Well, I got the camera! It needs an eyepiece which may or may not be a total pain to acquire. I've seen those periscope eyepieces for BL cameras but I guess the threading is different and you can't use BL accessories on S cameras. I wouldn't know, because we had some BLs at work but then they went to the off-campus program in France (They do write us postcards from time to time though. Yuk yuk yuk). So I've never actually seen one, let alone shot on one.

 

Then, I was looking for a serial number and assumed it would be on the inside of the door to the film compartment. All I found was "115" in a circle. Could it really be THAT old or would that number refer to something else? I also found a different number, 8113, on the motor.

 

I plan to do some research on the lenses and figure out how old they are. They are clean and in good shape though. Also, the battery connection is one of those 6-pin deals, not the 4-pin, so I will have to get that adapted. I got the mag and motor separately so I'll probably receive that package in another few days.

 

If a fellow 16S owner could tell me where the serial number is on these cameras, that would be cool. Does anybody know how many 16S cameras were manufactured before they started making the SB instead? (Or did they continue to make the S as a less expensive option?) :huh:

[somnambulance]

I have even used some 12v RC car batteries from Radio Shack. They worked fine. I think I will be using a Ridgid battery from here on out though. Does anyone know of a company that manufactures new batteries of these cameras?

[flavio filho]

It doesn't have to be DeWalt. You could go with any of the cordless tool brands. Bosch, Panasonic, Milwaukee, and Makita are good choices. I've heard bad things about the DeWalt tools, just not quite as bad as Ryobi. I have 12 volt Makita stuff. Starting fresh, I'd look for a make that's easier to open up and replace the cells.

 

 

 

-- J.S.

 

 

Hi John.

 

This page has some wonderful advices.

I'm now facing the same problem. Looking into build two 12V batteries for my 2 Arri 16s...

 

I wonder what would be the best option? I saw you mentioning you have one of "Makita Stuff"... What do you mean by that? A Makita battery that you adapted to be used with an Arri 16s?

I want to build a nice battery pack/charger that could last a lot, not being so heavy and yet "practical". I prefer the ones with the stripe to pass on shoulder instead of the belts...

 

I'm really into it now, need advice. Any help (other than the ones here in this thread) would be wicked.

 

 

Thanks,

 

Flavio

[John Sprung]

I had at that time a Makita drill/driver and small circular saw. They're probably still in the garage somewhere, but the Makita batteries are long dead. I opened one of them up, and it turns out not to be practical to re-cell them. The plastic cases can't be put back together. Maybe some day I'll put XLR-4M's on the tools and run them corded from camera batteries. You could convert a junk tool or charger into an adapter to XLR, but look carefully at the batteries to find one that'll be easy to re-cell as needed.

 

 

 

 

-- J.S.

[Skip Roessel]

The CS (constant speed) or VS (variable) motors on the 16S are designed to be run at 8 volts. They'll work at 12 or 14 volts, but Carl Scheitinger at TCS once told me the higher voltage damages the brushes of the motor and it will shorten the motor life. Cordless drill batteries at 8 volts should be ideal.

 

Skip

[Tim Carroll]

The CS (constant speed) or VS (variable) motors on the 16S are designed to be run at 8 volts. They'll work at 12 or 14 volts, but Carl Scheitinger at TCS once told me the higher voltage damages the brushes of the motor and it will shorten the motor life. Cordless drill batteries at 8 volts should be ideal.

 

Skip

 

You'll quickly damage the ARRI constant speed motor if you run it on 12 volts. The variable speed motor can take if for a longer period, but it's not the best thing for it. I have found 9.6 volt Radio Shack RC car batteries work pretty well with both the constant speed and variable speed motors.

 

Best,

-Tim

[flavio filho]

You'll quickly damage the ARRI constant speed motor if you run it on 12 volts. The variable speed motor can take if for a longer period, but it's not the best thing for it. I have found 9.6 volt Radio Shack RC car batteries work pretty well with both the constant speed and variable speed motors.

 

Best,

-Tim

 

 

Hi Tim.

Thanks.

 

I'm actually not intending to use the Arri constant motor. I have a TMS 23a that is a variable speed motor.

I'm still struggling with this battery problem. I really want to build one as I don't have the money to spend in a new one.

 

I've found this 2 things, can you let me know if I could go for it and build one with these?

http://www.batteryspace.com/nicdbatterypack12v5ahdx10forsolarpanelemergencylighting.aspx

http://www.batteryspace.com/multi-currentuniversalsmartchargerfor96v-18vnimhbatterypackstamiyaplugullisted.aspx

 

And whatever I'd need to use with my beloved Arri?

 

Thanks,

Flavio

[Ian Cooper]

...<snip>...

 

I've found this 2 things, can you let me know if I could go for it and build one with these?

http://www.batteryspace.com/nicdbatterypack12v5ahdx10forsolarpanelemergencylighting.aspx

http://www.batteryspace.com/multi-currentuniversalsmartchargerfor96v-18vnimhbatterypackstamiyaplugullisted.aspx

 

And whatever I'd need to use with my beloved Arri?

 

Thanks,

Flavio

 

 

Ok, and with a little prompting - the direct answer to your question is "yes", that should run your motor fine.

 

However, assuming you're still in the UK (and to a certain extent even if you're not), there is nothing magical or mystical about the batteries to run your camera, there are a number of cheaper options than spending £42 on the battery pack you've linked to.

 

At the beginning of last month I posted this message here, which at the bottom I linked to show the specification of what you were after, and made suggestions on suitable batteries with direct links which would cost you less than £10 per battery, and about £20 for a charger, total around £30. That is significantly less than the roughly £60 you're suggesting with those American links.

 

To repeat what has been said before, the specification for the Tobin TXM-22a (they don't seem to have made a TMS 23a ?) shows that it needs to run from a nominal 12V supply, although the manual specifically states that for correct operation at high speed with some cameras the voltage should be nearer 14.4V. This means the nominal 13.2V terminal voltage of a sealed lead acid battery is well within specification. I'm not going to repeat the reasoning, but as has been stated before a capacity of around 3.5 to 4Ah would be more than reasonable.

 

Again, as stated previously, I think your cheapest and easiest solution is to get yourself a 12V 4.5Ah sealed lead acid battery. This is what my 12V 6Ah battery looks like:

 

 

All you would need to do is make an appropriate connecting lead to go from the battery's spade connectors to a 4-pin XLR. Details of how to do this have been put on this forum before as well.

 

If you have a dislike of sealed lead acid batteries, then there are various NiCad/NiMH options. "Industrial" cells with solder tags are available from various places, in the past I have used both "Budget Batteries" and "Cellpack Solutions". Armed with a soldering iron you can assemble these cells into battery packs to either re-cell old batteries, or to create your own totally new ones.

 

This is the battery for my Eclair NPR:

 

It is 12V 3.5Ah, originally it contained x10 'D' type cells giving 4Ah, but as I was recelling it on a budget I went for the smaller 'C' type cell instead. Modern battery technologies mean that the smaller cells these days can have a similar capacity to the larger older ones. For the rare occasions I fire up the camera I'm never going to have a problem with the slightly smaller size.

 

For my Beaulieu R16 hand battery I was able to replace the original 1Ah cells with newer technology cells having a capacity of 2.4Ah in the same size. It was a simple case of taking the battery pack apart, soldering new cells in place and then reassembling.

 

 

I also have a totally homemade battery pack for it:

 

Having soldered the cells together they were then bound and wrapped up in camera tape. A trip to a highstreet camera shop will usually find a small bag designed for a compact camera or palm sized video camera that is suitable to carry the pack.

 

If you're feeling very adventurous then you can make your own battery box as well:

 

I take underground photographs and found the standard Metz battery pack for the flash had limited life. This pack contains x6 of the large industrial 'F' type cells, giving 7.2V 7Ah. The box is folded together from sheet steel before then brazing the corners, a pair of belt loops were brazed on and a small diecast box bolted on the top to house the XLR connector. Once the battery pack was slipped inside the back was then filled with Isopon car body filler to seal them in. If I need to recell it again in the future then it'll be a simple matter to break the body filler open again.

Edited December 3, 2011 by Ian Cooper

[flavio filho]

Hey Ian.

 

Thanks loads, man. Very very clarifying.

I believe I'll go for the NiCad cells. A bit more pricey, but with some small advantages.

I only wonder where to buy in UK that same I sent on that link, that they sell in USA... I'll look on that links that you send if they do.

 

Thanks loads, again! You rock!

[flavio filho]

I think your cheapest and easiest solution is to get yourself a 12V 4.5Ah sealed lead acid battery. This is what my 12V 6Ah battery looks like:

 

 

 

Only one quick question here:

I've heard from Duall Camera in USA the Lead Acid can cause problems in Arriflex 16s. It's said the best options are the nicd ones...

But anyway, am divided. I'd go for that one you listed above... But wouldn't be 5AH instead of this 4.5AH for the Arri 16s with the 12 Tobin Crystal Motor? Like THIS LEAD ACID 5AH?

Please let me know, Doug! So I can order one Lead and test it... Whatever happens we'll see. I'm short of money anyway to spend more on these cameras now.

 

Cheers,

Flavio

Edited December 5, 2011 by flavio filho

[Ian Cooper]

Only one quick question here:

I've heard from Duall Camera in USA the Lead Acid can cause problems in Arriflex 16s. It's said the best options are the nicd ones...

But anyway, am divided. I'd go for that one you listed above... But wouldn't be 5AH instead of this 4.5AH for the Arri 16s with the 12 Tobin Crystal Motor? Like THIS LEAD ACID 5AH?

Please let me know, Doug! So I can order one Lead and test it... Whatever happens we'll see. I'm short of money anyway to spend more on these cameras now.

 

Cheers,

Flavio

 

Who's Doug?

 

Anyhow, the original Arri 16s motor was designed to operate off 8V, although technically how this was achieved even with NiCad batteries is a bit of a mystery: x6 NiCad cells would give a nominal terminal voltage of 7.2V, whilst x7 NiCad cells would give a nominal terminal voltage of 8.4V.

 

Either way, a lead acid battery would not work well with one of these original "8 volt" motors. A 6V lead acid battery (terminal voltage about 6.6V) would be too low, whilst a 12V battery (13.2V terminal voltage) would be far too high and risk burning out the motor.

 

I suspect when Duall Camera were offering you advice on batteries for the Arri 16s they were assuming you were using an original Arri motor, or equivalent. As you are using a Tobin TXM-22a you don't have this problem, the instructions for this motor specifically states that it should run from a nominal 12V supply. I've already linked to the instructions, perhaps for your own peace of mind you ought to contact Tobin Cinema Systems yourself to ask if their motor will run from a 12V lead acid.

 

The only 'problem' with the 5Ah battery rather than a smaller one is just that it will be a bit larger and heavier to carry. The 'advantage' is that it will run the camera a bit longer than the lower capacity batteries. Otherwise, that's fine.

[flavio filho]

Sorry! I mean IAN! :P

 

Thanks anyway. My question was...

Should I use the 4.5AH or the 5AH? Or there's no difference?

 

Thanks!

 

Flavio

[flavio filho]

Sorry! I mean IAN! :P

 

Thanks anyway. My question was... For the LEAD ACID.... Should I use the 4.5AH or the 5AH with the Tobin TMX-22a? Or there's no difference?

 

Thanks!

 

Flavio

[Ian Cooper]

Sorry! I mean IAN! :P

 

Thanks anyway. My question was... For the LEAD ACID.... Should I use the 4.5AH or the 5AH with the Tobin TMX-22a? Or there's no difference?

 

Thanks!

 

Flavio

 

As good as no difference.

 

 

A 4.5Ah battery is likely to be physically a little bit lighter in weight and a shade smaller in size than a 5Ah battery...

 

...but a 5Ah battery has a slightly higher capacity so will be able to run a bit longer before it is discharged...

 

...BUT the current drawn by your motor on the camera is such that you probably won't see much real-word difference in the length of time a 5Ah battery lasts compared to a 4.5Ah battery anyway, so for all practical purposes they'll be the same. Don't worry about it.

[flavio filho]

Hy Ian

 

I'm probably going for this and this.

 

Not that heavy. I've just asked Tobin about them. Waiting for a confirmation...

What would be the main difference, if ANY, between the 4.5A and 5A? Only the SIZE/WEIGHT as you said?

 

I believe this lead-acid battery above of 5A is basically the same size/weight of the 4.5A ones...

 

Awesome help you're giving me, Ian. Thanks loads once more!

 

Flavio

Edited December 6, 2011 by flavio filho

[Ian Cooper]

...What would be the main difference, if ANY, between the 4.5A and 5A? Only the SIZE/WEIGHT as you said?...

 

A 5Ah battery holds 12.5% more charge than a 4.5Ah battery, so in theory it will run the camera 12.5% longer, all else being equal.

 

If a 4.5Ah battery runs the camera non-stop for 60 minutes, then a 5Ah battery in theory might run it for 67.5 minutes. In practice that is a bit of an over simplification, but it is why I said earlier that for all practical purposes you won't notice any difference.

Edited December 6, 2011 by Ian Cooper