Noob - Soft bedroom Scene on a small budget

[Guest jeff]

Hi All!

 

I'm a total lighting noob on a tight budget (worst case scenario.... LOL)

 

Im going to be shooting a scene in a bedroom (most likely in a house w/ 8 foot white popcorn ceilings) for a commercial. White walls but can be painted an earthtone. Standard tan carpet. Windows will most likely be kept black and cutained until I have more skills.

 

I would like to make the shoot kind of soft looking and move the camera in a slow sweep (about 5 feet)

 

Camera will be a Panasonic DVX 100A... editing in Premier Pro 1.5.

 

Any suggestions on what kind of Home Depot lights I should buy?

I was thinking of Par flood & spot halogens (like for track lighting)? is the "K" to far off for these lights?

Should I buy 500W work-lights also (or instead of the above lights)?

How about softboxes - how big and where to place them - 216 or 250?

 

If at all possible... A rough diagram placement of the lights & boxes would be a huge help. If not, a description of placement would be great too.

 

 

Thanks so much for the advice... I looked around in this forum section and found no specifics that applied to this scene.

 

Jeff

[David Mullen ASC]

Is this a day or night scene? What mood are you trying to create? What's the commercial for? What product? What are you trying to show off?

[Laurent Andrieux]

I'm sorry may be I don't understand you so well... (may be due to the fact I'm french) but...

 

How comes you were hired for a shoot that doesn't seem to be so complicated and present yourself as a DOP and need us to tell you how to light this shoot ???

 

The list of different possible sources you're giving are able to give you so different results that it sounds like you have no idea at all of how to choose them, meaning you don't have much idea of what you want the light to look like either...

 

You don't even tell us if you plan to give a "day" or a "nigtht" effect to the scene.... You only say you want a "soft" look, but I'm afraid you would never get such a look with par floods, nor spot halogens (what is it actually that you cal so ?). Actually, you mention "dark indows"... Are they going to be in the frame ? If so, How is it possibly a "day" effect ? Then, why would be a "night" effect "soft", as you don't mention any praticable lights on the set (unless the "spot halogens" are) ?

 

You mention buying though you say having not much money and it's obvious renting would be cheaper...

 

You talk about a "commercial". Are you actually a student ? Are you directing this ? If it's a real professional "commercial", the best you have to do for this film not to be ruined is to hire a DP. You might find a young - real - one for cheap if you ask around schools or rentals...

 

All I can tell you - just to show it's not that I don't want to help - is that if you want a soft light, a soft box can be an issue, but a blonde or a redhead bounced on a poly board, or even a wall or the ceiling (if you keep them white) can work well. If you keep the praticable ligths (I assume the spot halogen) in the frame, a couple of 500 w Fresnel to light the actors faces (you don't mention any...) with diffusion can be a good basis, but the thing is you need an "eye" to set them... Do you think you have the "eye" ?

 

Anyways, please don't put "DOP" in your profile if you are actually not a DOP... Thanks.

[Guest Andy Sparaco]

Trying to buy a bunch of lighting stuff at Home depot is going to be ecxpensive and frustrating. None of this type of lighting has stands, barndoors and gel/diffusion mounting included. Not to mention having the cases and extension cords. For 35 to 50 USD you can rent a three or four light Quartz kit and have what you need.

 

Contact local Film or video production companies, or grip/lighting companies or film/video rental houses. For what you would spend at Home depot or some such and not be able to re-use you could get a local grip with connections to do the lighting for you.

 

You will look like an idiot dragging a bunch of lights in bags onto a shoot. Not a confidence building move

[Alvin Pingol]

Since we're on the topic of lights from the Home Depot...

 

Here are a few frames from a short I did a while back, being lit with none other than halogen work lamps from (yep, you guessed it) the Home Depot. I've a Home Depot literally 2 minutes from my house, so it's easy access. ;)

 

With proper placement and a little diffusion or bounce, one can get away with acceptable results.

 

Bounced light:

 

1k bounced off of a portable screen intended for viewing slide projections:

 

1k bounced again, from the right, with a 500w bounced off of a wall on the left:

(For some reason, I completely missed the reflection in the frame during the shoot)

 

500w bounced, coming from behind:

 

Direct light:

 

500w knocked down to half power high up to the right, creating somewhat of a "slash" of light on the back:

(The rest lit by practicals)

 

500w on the floor of a room connecting to the hallway, temporarily illuminating subject as he walks past it:

 

Similar to the third shot above, but 500w direct from behind:

 

 

Although I must note: Carrying around work lamps and heavy duty light stands in a large duffel bag is quite a workout.

Edited December 31, 2004 by Alvin Pingol

[Guest jeff]

Hi all... WOW! thanks for the great responses!

 

I see I needed more detail to my question (I'm such a noob...LOL)

 

This is for a bed that I am planning on marketing at a much lower price than others out there on the market. I am planning on producing the ad myself (to keep startup costs to a bare minimum and pass on the savings to the consumer). I plan on performing multiple shoots until I achieve the desired effect.

 

I live in a rather small city of 50,000 in Bend, Oregon and I dont think that rentals are a very viable option (although I have performed only a very quick search). Also, Since I plan on doing many differnet shoots I was thinking that rentals may wind up being really expensive as compared to building/adapting some lights from Home Depot and experimenting. I have no problem with building gadgets and various items (including sturdy light stands).

 

Is this a day or night scene? - A Night Scene.

What mood are you trying to create?- A softly lit (simulated dark) bedroom with 2 people sleeping on a bed.

What's the commercial for? What product? - A bed ( memory foam bed... like tempur-pedic)

What are you trying to show off? - The bed its self and the people sleeping on it

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

I hope I filled in the additional info that all of you wanted and thanks again for your great info & examples!!!!

 

Jeff

[David Mullen ASC]

If it's a night scene where people are sleeping with the lights turned off, it helps not to have white walls or bedsheets because the people's skin will look too dark in comparison once you make the scene low-key.

 

Most commercials for beds showing people sleeping tend to go for a moonlit look from a window to one side of the bed, often showing a high angle looking down (side-lit) and a bed level angle looking at the person sleeping, usually backlit (window behind them.)

 

Besides bouncing a Home Depot light gelled blue-ish for moonlight, another possibility is using a large Chinese Lantern with a blue Photoflood in it (you can get those at large photography stores -- or use a daylight-balanced fluorescent lightbulb) and set the camera to tungsten-balance for a blue-ish look.

 

The problem will flagging this soft light so that it rakes the bed but doesn't light up the walls too much. This is where a few c-stands and black flags or even just black cardboard, etc. can help.

 

Another possibility is to build a lightweight fluorescent fixture that can be armed over the bed as a soft back-edge light (for the bed-level side angle.) Blackwrap (black aluminum foil) could be used around the sides of the flo tube to flag it and direct it a little.

 

But the bounced light may be the simplest approach if you can flag it somehow.

[Guest jeff]

Ok Thanks David,

 

I was thinking of having sort of warm color hue to the scene without the simulated moonlight. The talent will have light colored bedclothes and the mattress itself has an ivory colored cover. Other shots will have earthtone bed covers (quilts). There will also be some dark cherry colored end tables.

 

Would you rather see some par Halogen lights (flood or spot) instead of Quartz work lights for lighting?

 

Thanks so much David.

 

Jeff

[David Mullen ASC]

Use whatever is easier to raise or lower on a stand, and easier to flag or put barndoors on. Even for bounce lighting, you want lights you can aim and flag off.

 

If you want a warmer tone, then Chinese Lanterns sound even more practical.

[David Mullen ASC]

Here's a bedroom scene in "Twin Falls Idaho" that I lit with two 4' 4-bank Kinos with 1/2 CTO, placed end to end, on a "menace arm" (a speedrail pipe cantilevered from a combo stand). I wanted a soft backlight on the bed that covered their bodies from head to toe, hence why I needed the two Kinos end to end. I was planning on using a Chinese Lantern but I figured I'd be spending all my time flagging it off of the back wall, but that would have been lighter and easier to float over the bed. 35mm Fuji F-250T, Primo lenses.

 

 

 

 

While the tightness of the framing suggests I didn't need to float the light out over the middle of the bed, one of the shots dollied originally from the twins' faces on the pillow down to his feet with her painting his toenails, so I would have seen the light stand if I hadn't armed the light from the side.

[Laurent Andrieux]

Also a thing that comes to my mind, for aspiring DPs : a lot of ressource can be reached as well on studentfilmmakers, where valuable people, like David, Kevin or M. Roy Wagner participate too...

[Phil Rhodes]

Hi,

 

Film does render the intentionally off-colour-temperature lighting nicely. It's a favourite trick of mine, but to avoid it just looking plasticky and wrong in video you end up desaturating a lot in colour-correction, which of course forces you to have a low-saturation image. This may be a complete cheat in that you can do what you like with colour and turn it down to the point where it's not so objectionable if it's wrong, but still.

 

To do that on video I would probably shoot it much whiter and bend it afterwards, making any corresponding blue-moonlight bluer to compensate, but don't listen to me - I've a billionth the experience of Mr. Mullen.

 

Phil

[Guest Andy Sparaco]

Google search for Bend, Or Video Production delivers three hits immediately. Your kidding yourself if you think "worklights" will be less expensive then renting a quartz kit. More importantly the folks you rent it from would/could prove very helpful in providing you with production support and advice.

 

If you are taking this approach because you expect to take a number of days to figure out your ass from a hole in the ground then Home Depot is the way to go.

 

Based upon the description of your objectives and experience, some qualified support may be worthwhile in preparing a finished TV commerical which meets the technical specs for broad or cablecast and doesn't look like like a total piece of poop.

 

If your approach for building your "product" is the same as building your TV commercial I wonder if it is safe to use.

[J. Anthony Gonzales]

Great. Another round of wonderful and insightful replies from people who act like this is cinema-"snobbery".com. And I wasn't aware that the title of "Director Of Photography" was so sacred. If you direct the photographic results of a film, then in my book, you are a DOP. If that means using Home Depot lights and a shower curtain, or even a couple of photofloods a al El Mariachi, then so be it.

 

This guy is asking for a little help to light a single bedroom seem using what HE has access to and can afford. It's great that some people can run around the corner and pick-up an Arri package or that the guy across the street just help lit the latest Spielberg movie. Obviously, this guy is not so lucky.

 

Lights are lights. Whether it's the sun, an HMI unit, a pro-quartz package, or a flashlight bounced off a sheet of paper. Of course the output varies, but that's exactly what this guy is asking for help on. AND, he is specific enough in his needs not to be chastised for asking for help.

 

Bravo to Mr. Mullen, who, as always, shows some class and actually tries to help this guy. He asks some more questions and tries to direct him towards a solution in a POSITIVE way.

 

If this is a forum where a bunch of guys sit around and peck out their film set war stories on their keyboards, then maybe a warning message should be posted to that affect when you visit this site.

 

BUT, I don't believe this site to be like that. There are a lot of wonderful people here who are more than willing to give back by taking a little time out of their lives and sharing knowledge and teaching a bit of their craft. That I appreciate, as I am sure that people like, Mr. Jeff in Oregon here, do as well.

 

John Gonzales

[David Mullen ASC]

I've never really cared whether a light I used was "professional" or not as long as it did the job. The trouble with Home Depot worklights is that they are hard to control, hard to aim, raise or lower, gel, scrim, etc. But if they do what you need them to do without a lot of crazy workarounds, fine. But you may be happier with something like a reflector dish with photofloods or something, who knows. A worklight is probably easier to bounce off of a side wall or shine through a big sheet of diffusion than do anything more tricky with them.

 

My early lighting was all done with some reflector dish units from a hardware store, some Chinese Lanterns, and one 650 watt tungsten halogen movie lamp made in the 1960's for Super-8 amatuer shooters. Plus a box of oddball light bulbs. If it put out light, I was interested in using it...

 

One well-designed, well-built, focusable movie lamp in an otherwise hodgepodge of homemade gear is a welcome tool though. If I had to own only one professional movie lamp, it would probably be something like a 1K Baby Baby tungsten fresnel.

[Laurent Andrieux]

Great.  Another round of wonderful and insightful replies from people who act like this is cinema-"snobbery".com.  And I wasn't aware that the title of "Director Of Photography" was so sacred.  If you direct the photographic results of a film, then in my book, you are a DOP.  If that means using Home Depot lights and a shower curtain, or even a couple of photofloods a al El Mariachi, then so be it.

 

This guy is asking for a little help to light a single bedroom seem using what HE has access to and can afford.  It's great that some people can run around the corner and pick-up an Arri package or that the guy across the street just help lit the latest Spielberg movie.  Obviously, this guy is not so lucky.

 

Lights are lights.  Whether it's the sun, an HMI unit, a pro-quartz package, or a flashlight bounced off a sheet of paper.  Of course the output varies, but that's exactly what this guy is asking for help on.  AND, he is specific enough in his needs not to be chastised for asking for help.

 

Bravo to Mr. Mullen, who, as always, shows some class and actually tries to help this guy.  He asks some more questions and tries to direct him towards a solution in a POSITIVE way.

 

If this is a forum where a bunch of guys sit around and peck out their film set war stories on their keyboards, then maybe a warning message should be posted to that affect when you visit this site.

 

BUT, I don't believe this site to be like that.  There are a lot of wonderful people here who are more than willing to give back by taking a little time out of their lives and sharing knowledge and teaching a bit of their craft.  That I appreciate, as I am sure that people like, Mr. Jeff in Oregon here, do as well.

 

John Gonzales

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I guess I'm one of the people this is directed to...

 

I've been discussing the problem of profile in another thread...

 

Truly, the problem was that this guy presents himself as a DP, and says "tell me how to light the scene".... If he had just said, "I'm a beginer or student, I'd like to have your advice on this", it would have been different...

 

If you look around the forums here, you'll see I'm into helping people (even though there are here some much more valuable people, so that I can't help just as well as some other can do).

 

I actually tried to help the guy as well, asking him questions, giving him a couple of advices etc. Since that, Mr Mullen gave him some very intersting advices.

 

I don't consider that since you're lighting one student stuff you are a dop.

 

It's not the problem of the light coming from Arri or Home depot. I wouldn't mind lighting with nearly any source you would give me or with not light at all, I'd bring mine.

 

Would you consider as a director a guy who would tell you "I have to direct a film and don't know how to do it", (since you present yourself as a director) ?

 

Do you consider a guy a dop since he's going to light something without concern to the result it might give ? Well, great, you certainly are going to give their chances to some aspiring dps as a director, just wish it doesn't ruin your films !

 

But, truly, becoming a DoP is such a long go that you should consider this job another way... (not sacred nor snob either).

 

If you think this remark I have made gives the tune of this forum, well, you are wrong, I only speak in my own name (and sometimes don't speak so well english...).

 

And for what is about taking a bit of my life for sharing knowledge and teaching, I am sorry to tell you it now is my primary job for 6 years now, so I don't have problems with that (unless there is so much that I don't know, still).

[J. Anthony Gonzales]

I guess I'm one of the people this is directed to...

 

I've been discussing the problem of profile in another thread...

 

Truly, the problem was that this guy presents himself as a DP, and says "tell me how to light the scene".... If he had just said, "I'm a beginer or student, I'd like to have your advice on this", it would have been different...

 

If you look around the forums here, you'll see I'm into helping people (even though there are here some much more valuable people, so that I can't help just as well as some other can do).

 

I actually tried to help the guy as well, asking him questions, giving him a couple of advices etc. Since that, Mr Mullen gave him some very intersting advices.

 

I don't consider that since you're lighting one student stuff you are a dop.

 

It's not the problem of the light coming from Arri or Home depot. I wouldn't mind lighting with nearly any source you would give me or with not light at all, I'd bring mine.

 

Would you consider as a director a guy who would tell you "I have to direct a film and don't know how to do it", (since you present yourself as a director) ?

 

Do you consider a guy a dop since he's going to light something without concern to the result it might give ? Well, great, you certainly are going to give their chances to some aspiring dps as a director, just wish it doesn't ruin your films !

 

But, truly, becoming a DoP is such a long go that you should consider this job another way... (not sacred nor snob either).

 

If you think this remark I have made gives the tune of this forum, well, you are wrong, I only speak in my own name (and sometimes don't speak so well english...).

 

And for what is about taking a bit of my life for sharing knowledge and teaching, I am sorry to tell you it now is my primary job for 6 years now, so I don't have problems with that (unless there is so much that I don't know, still).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

First, you have just referred to Jeff's post as a "problem". What's the problem? He wasn't acting maliciously or with ill-will towards anybody in any way. I've seen posts that would fit that category, and I agree that those types of people are "problems".

 

Second, you say you offered help. More like a back-handed word of advice, if you ask me. You don't slam somebody and then act like you are trying to help them. There are much better ways to communicate with people. The guy says he is a "noob". Why make him feel like crap?

 

Lastly, maybe profiles are an issue. I don't know. I'll have to check out that thread. There's a difference between a professional and an amateur or "noob" or student or whatever else. Sure. But Director of Photography is a job title. It's not a professional designation in itself. Just like a Sales Associate, or an Accountant or even a film Director. So what makes you a professional? Once you receive a paycheck for it? Once you have done the job for a minute, an hour, a complete project? When it's more than just a hobby? I don't know. But as far as I know, there are no "rules" to that effect on this forum.

 

I guess my point is this: relax. If someone posts a sincere question and says he's the president of the United States, so what? I don't think his "title" is the point.

 

John Gonzales

[Laurent Andrieux]

Ok, let's relax ! I found your first post quite "angry" actually...

 

One point is I don't know what the word "noob" means... Anyway, I really think you should have a look about this discussion in the thread "people's profile" in the "general discussion" section.

 

As I've said may be 3 or 4 times, it's not the question he asked, it's the fact that it shocked me to see this question asked by a so-called DOP... That's all.

 

You see, I don't agree with that :

 

Director of Photography is a job title. It's not a professional designation in itself

 

Since you're supposed to put somehow "what you basically do" in your profile.

 

But it's only a point of view, I respect yours.

[Phil Rhodes]

Hi,

 

"noob" is an abbreviation of "newbie", an inexperienced person, literally a newcomer to a field. Both are frankly rather juvenile expressions found mainly on the internet, generated by fourteen-year-old AOL users.

 

See also: w00t, l33t, h4x0r, and PD-150.

 

Oh, I crack myself up.

 

Phil

[Guest jeff]

Hi all...

Dammit, I replied ealier to the thread and for some reason it didnt go in.

 

Also a thing that comes to my mind, for aspiring DPs : a lot of ressource can be reached as well on studentfilmmakers, where valuable people, like David, Kevin or M. Roy Wagner participate too...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Thanks Laurent, Is the website for the above studentfilmaker.com or something? I would like to look into that. Also, sorry for the "DOP" title... that was just something I filled in to represent my position as closely as I could when I started my account here. Also, I should have stated that I was a novice at the beginning instead of a noob... sorry for the confusion.

 

 

And Andy wrote - If your approach for building your "product" is the same as building your TV commercial I wonder if it is safe to use. Well, the product is really great, I am hoping to make the ad myself and make it as good as it can be. I think I would like to have the lights on hand so I can experiment as much as possible and learn. Thanks for checking out the local scene for me by the way. I will contact some of them and feel them out .

 

 

David - The scene looks great. I would like mine to be a bit lighter and not quite as "mysterious". In addition to doing low shots on a sweep, I would also Like to do a higher, overhead shot (about 5 feet above the bed near the foot of the bed). Can I use the kinos on both sides of the bed?

 

If I make my own Kino's do you have a reccomendation for the type of tubes to buy.

 

I was also thinking of making a large softbox (2-4 X 6 combinable to a 6 X 8') that would overlap the edges of the bed to help hide the floor shadow. The idea of making them 4 X 6 is to be able to set them on the sides of the bed for the overhead shot. I will also be able to run air over this box to cool it as these scenes will not be using the studio sound. I would like to make this box dimmable as well for better control (Im thinking a home-made kino would not be dimmable). Do you think this a bad idea? Should I just stick with a kino instead?

 

It seems to me that a chinese lantern may have clearance problems in a studio with only 8' ceilings. I like the idea of softbox or kino. As far as rigging goes, I'll will have no problem setting that up...Im good at that sort of thing.

 

Oh, by the way...I build high-speed computers for a living. If I can help anyone with problems or any advice feel free to e-mail me at jeff@predatorgamingpc.com.

 

I really appreciate all of your help guys. Thanks so much everyone.

 

Jeff

[David Mullen ASC]

A Kino is fine for a soft light for close-ups but for the whole bed, you'll probably want a larger soft light or a bounce light.

 

Maybe this is something you can shoot lighting tests of first with a still camera.

[Laurent Andrieux]

Jeff, it's okay, you're welcome. Sorry I've been making such a fuss about that. It's also me learning how to use these forums. Anyways, the discussion about the profile may not be useless, either.

 

Hope you'll get along well with your shooting, and learn about light !

 

Regards,

[Guest Andy Sparaco]

Pimping, Do no harm, Someone elses problem>

 

I assume that the comment regarding "cinema snobs" may refer to me since I was harsh to the original poster of this thread.

 

Pimping is the process where someone plays helpless so as to get as much as possible out if the willing, saving themselves time and money with no return to the folks who extended themselves.

 

This "noob" character is pimping the forum in my opinion.

 

 

Do no harm: This guy is a train wreck waiting to happen. There is no point in participating in the creation of more crap being imposed upon us over the airwaves.

 

 

Someone elses problem: I mentioned on another thread I was GM at a large Post Production facility (two edit suites, two drive in stages, 15 employees) in the early 90's. I saw and had to deal with this type of "client". They waste lots of time, you have to sort out their mess, they never want to pay and they never come back if you force them too.

 

This is an act overtly or covertly , taking advantage of the good nature and tendency to help of a group of folks who inhabit this list.

 

This DIY clown and will end up on someones doorstep asking for even more help, maybe yours. A TV Spot is one of a number of elements required for a successful Television compaign. The folks who handle media buying and placement would laugh at this guy. The last direct response TV Commercial I did had a test run which cost 25K for 125 spots on Discovery/TLC/Animal Planet/Trio over 10 days. If this guy can't afford a couple of lights how can he afford to even a test run.

 

If anyone on this list wants to examine my credentials email me and I will give you acces to my ftp demo site. I suppose I could post a picture of the two dozen or more telly, mobius, clio awards but there in a box somehere in the garage and I am editing today

[Guest jeff]

Happy New Year everyone!

 

A Kino is fine for a soft light for close-ups but for the whole bed, you'll probably want a larger soft light or a bounce light.

 

Maybe this is something you can shoot lighting tests of first with a still camera.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yes, I agree David, I plan on starting tests with different setups (kinos, large softboxes and bounced light) next week.

 

If I make the large softboxes that I mentioned above (2- 4' X 6' units that can be combined), how deep should I make it? I was thinking about 12". I was considering putting in a lot of 250W worklights (1 about every 1.5 square foot). The frame would allow for relatively fast sheet changes to as well. I was planning on muslin and bedsheets as the materials to try first.

 

Do you think this is worth trying?

 

Does anyone know if the is a Kelvin difference between quartz worklights and Halogen "Par" spot/flood lights?

[Greg Gross]

Alvin,

I really like the man in the hallway. I visualize light falling off of him,as

he strides away. Man shaving in mirror is great also. I like contrast of

the intensity of light, between back of T-shirt and front of T-shirt.

 

Greg