16x9 super 8

[Mike Currell]

Hi

Just wondering about achieving 16x9 when using super 8. I have heard about max8- too much hassle and dollars, and I realise that it can be converted during telecine but how about this,

 

Would a 16x9 "mask" fitted into a mattebox (kompendium) do the business?

Having a reflex viewfinder ie.. u see wat the lens sees....you would also see 16x9 in the eyecup.

 

Would it work on a zoom lens as well as prime lenses?

 

:blink:

Any comments?

[Jean-Louis Seguin]

Hi Mike,

 

In my opinion, the best way to achieve a 16:9 ratio in Super8 is to leave the camera alone and invest in an anamorphic lens in front of the camera that gives you a 1.33 compression ratio. There are a few Century 16:9 lenses on eBay right now for under $500.

 

Cheers,

Jean-Louis

[Oliver Gläser]

Hi Mike,

 

In my opinion, the best way to achieve a 16:9 ratio in Super8 is to leave the camera alone and invest in an anamorphic lens in front of the camera that gives you a 1.33 compression ratio. There are a few Century 16:9 lenses on eBay right now for under $500.

 

Cheers,

Jean-Louis

 

Max 8mm is not a difficult format to convert most cameras too... involves very little work, and can be done by most people with any technical skill within a couple of hours. that being said it also depends on the camera that you intend to shoot with. A beaulieu for example is a perfect camera to make this modification too, as the C mount allows you too use lenses intended to cover a larger aperture. For my 4008 ZMII I have made the modification, and use my Zeiss super speeds as well as the stock angenieux which all cover the format.

 

I believe this to be advantageous over an anamorphic adapter for a couple of reasons. First you still see a normal aspect ratio picture in your viewfinder. Second, Every piece of glass you put if front of other pieces of glass, will degrade the image and reduce light transmission. Most of those lenses are intended for Projectors and not for in front of cameras, although I am sure that you can use them for such.

 

anyway, my two cents... thanks for reading.

Oliver

[Oliver Gläser]

Hi

Just wondering about achieving 16x9 when using super 8. I have heard about max8- too much hassle and dollars, and I realise that it can be converted during telecine but how about this,

 

Would a 16x9 "mask" fitted into a mattebox (kompendium) do the business?

Having a reflex viewfinder ie.. u see wat the lens sees....you would also see 16x9 in the eyecup.

 

Would it work on a zoom lens as well as prime lenses?

 

:blink:

Any comments?

 

 

also, any kind of matte that you put on your mattebox, that close to the lens will have the undesired effect of not being a sharp line. and it will become sharper or softer depending on how you focus. something else to keep in mind...

 

oliver

[Rick Palidwor]

Max 8mm is not a difficult format to convert most cameras too... involves very little work, and can be done by most people with any technical skill within a couple of hours.

 

I totally agree with Oliver, especially if by "Max-8" you are talking about working with Pro8 (way too expensive). I know people who modify cameras for $100 or less. Then you only need a telecine service that will transfer with modified gate. There are many out there. Two in Canada are Photoplays.ca and Frame Discreet.

 

If you are finishing on video you could consider just masking it with your digital editing program.

 

If you are not familiar with our "super-duper 8" (Max-8) feature check these frame grabs: http://friendlyfirefilms.com/sleepalwaysframegrabs.html

 

Rick

[Adam Garner]

I shoot without a modified gate at all. I just frame it in my 4:3 viewfinder for 16:9, ignoring the top and bottom 10% or so (whatever the math is). Then I transfer in HD.

 

The results are bad-ass. No need to mod your gate assuming you have a good lens. I've not really seen a good example of NON-mod gate vs mod-gate side by side to get a feel for quality difference. Obviously with Max-8 there's a better resolution, but I dunno if it's really noticable.

 

Some compressed footage here : http://vimeo.com/3021850

[Oliver Gläser]

I shoot without a modified gate at all. I just frame it in my 4:3 viewfinder for 16:9, ignoring the top and bottom 10% or so (whatever the math is). Then I transfer in HD.

 

The results are bad-ass. No need to mod your gate assuming you have a good lens. I've not really seen a good example of NON-mod gate vs mod-gate side by side to get a feel for quality difference. Obviously with Max-8 there's a better resolution, but I dunno if it's really noticable.

 

Some compressed footage here : http://vimeo.com/3021850

 

 

Its like the difference between regular and super 8mm... 10% can be a lot.

 

There is another facility in canada that Transfers Max 8mm - Mine!

 

Newsreel Productions in Vancouver BC. Check out my website for more information about what we/I offer.

 

Here is the Vimeo link to the Super 8mm reel

 

and here is some stabilization Examples

 

Thanks

 

Oliver

[Mike Currell]

I shoot without a modified gate at all. I just frame it in my 4:3 viewfinder for 16:9, ignoring the top and bottom 10% or so (whatever the math is). Then I transfer in HD.

 

The results are bad-ass. No need to mod your gate assuming you have a good lens. I've not really seen a good example of NON-mod gate vs mod-gate side by side to get a feel for quality difference. Obviously with Max-8 there's a better resolution, but I dunno if it's really noticable.

 

Some compressed footage here : http://vimeo.com/3021850

 

 

Thanks all for the responses. My only concern is the framing and trying to guess it.

Adam, your footage is gr8. I am also looking at aquiring a 1014xls and having seen your footage I am just about convinced. May I ask how you did your telecine for the vimeo vids?

Also on the Vimeo page you respond to some comments re using different lenses (wide angle) on the 1014xls - are you talking about adapters here? as I thought the canon lens was fixed??

 

Thanks all

Mike

[David F Schaaf]

I totally agree with Oliver, especially if by "Max-8" you are talking about working with Pro8 (way too expensive). I know people who modify cameras for $100 or less. Then you only need a telecine service that will transfer with modified gate. There are many out there. Two in Canada are Photoplays.ca and Frame Discreet.

 

If you are finishing on video you could consider just masking it with your digital editing program.

 

If you are not familiar with our "super-duper 8" (Max-8) feature check these frame grabs: http://friendlyfirefilms.com/sleepalwaysframegrabs.html

 

Rick

 

 

how do you get a camera modified??? I have a 1014xl-s and I can't find any places which can modify the gate. thx

[Paul Korver]

Hey All,

No one has brought this up so far but you might find interesting a little chart we did that shows actual frame dimensions, native resolution (in sq. mm) and effective resolutions (in sq mm.) of small format and odd format stocks (including Max 8mm) after 16x9 extraction for HD telecine.

 

http://www.cinelicious.tv/?page_id=39

 

It's about half-way down the page.

 

In compiling the chart I found it interesting that Max 8mm, which is often touted as a "widescreen" format, is actually 1.5:1 ...which is closer to 4:3 (1.33:1) than it is to 16x9 (1.78:1). Food for thought.

 

We've transferred some anamorphic Super 8mm that looked great though. I forget the exact camera setup. It was done by Super 8mm filmmaker Moises Perez.

 

Goooooooo Super 8mm!

 

-Paul

[Rick Palidwor]

how do you get a camera modified??? I have a 1014xl-s and I can't find any places which can modify the gate. thx

 

Mitch Perkins offers this. he is at: www.photoplays.ca

However, the gates on those Canons are "soft" (plastic, not metal) and he may decline as it is riskier than other Cameras. I know because he did my 814XLS and he complained about the delicacy of the gate.

Rick

[daniel mahlknecht]

Hi,

 

I just uploaded some super8 (actually single8 shot with a Fujica zc-1000) shot anamorphically with an iscorama lens. In this particular case I used a 25mm fix lens and a ISCORAMA-ANAMORPHOT 1,5x - 36.

If you use a zoom lens then the ISCORAMA-ANAMORPHOT 1,5x - 54 works better, as you can use your lens from abouth 11mm on without vignetting (I have tested it on my Bauer A512 and the Beaulieu ZM4, as well as on the original Fujica zc-1000 Zoomlens).

The second part of the roll I shot in 4:3 without the iscorama so you have the direct comparison.

No cropping at all was used on the footage.

 

watch the footage on http://vimeo.com/7863772 The sharpnes of the anamorphic footage is great, unfortunately the compression on vimeo has diminued it a lot.

 

daniel

[Moises Perez]

Hey All,

No one has brought this up so far but you might find interesting a little chart we did that shows actual frame dimensions, native resolution (in sq. mm) and effective resolutions (in sq mm.) of small format and odd format stocks (including Max 8mm) after 16x9 extraction for HD telecine.

 

http://www.cinelicious.tv/?page_id=39

 

It's about half-way down the page.

 

In compiling the chart I found it interesting that Max 8mm, which is often touted as a "widescreen" format, is actually 1.5:1 ...which is closer to 4:3 (1.33:1) than it is to 16x9 (1.78:1). Food for thought.

 

We've transferred some anamorphic Super 8mm that looked great though. I forget the exact camera setup. It was done by Super 8mm filmmaker Moises Perez.

 

Goooooooo Super 8mm!

 

-Paul

[Moises Perez]

Hello everyone,

My apologies, I guess my previous post don't add any new information. I depressed the add replay button by accident. Anyway, I just want to mention that I had excellent results using an anamorphic attachment in front of my camera lenses. I wanted to upload a picture of my setup but I was not able to do it. However, I can e-mail you the pix if you want. This is my e-mail: reachmoy@netzero.net

Best regards,

moy

[Mike Currell]

Hi,

 

I just uploaded some super8 (actually single8 shot with a Fujica zc-1000) shot anamorphically with an iscorama lens. In this particular case I used a 25mm fix lens and a ISCORAMA-ANAMORPHOT 1,5x - 36.

If you use a zoom lens then the ISCORAMA-ANAMORPHOT 1,5x - 54 works better, as you can use your lens from abouth 11mm on without vignetting (I have tested it on my Bauer A512 and the Beaulieu ZM4, as well as on the original Fujica zc-1000 Zoomlens).

The second part of the roll I shot in 4:3 without the iscorama so you have the direct comparison.

No cropping at all was used on the footage.

 

watch the footage on http://vimeo.com/7863772 The sharpnes of the anamorphic footage is great, unfortunately the compression on vimeo has diminued it a lot.

 

daniel

 

 

Daniel, this is some of the sharpest super 8 footage I have seen! It is the first time I have bothered to allow Vimeo to download in HD as my PC is a bit slow....worth the wait! Please tell me how you did the telecine??

 

Yes Moises I would love to see the setup I will email you now

Cheers

Mike

[daniel mahlknecht]

Hi,

actually I use a modified Bauer T610 super8 projector (with the sync components for 25f/sec and a special led lamp of telecine Fälker in germany). I film directly the film without any screen or something between the camera and the lens (as a result the image is upside down and has to be turned in final cut). I use my old JVC GY700WE CL with an selfmade c-mount adapter and a Kern Yvar 75mm lens and some macrorings.

Actually I'm very happy with the results too :-)

This kind of telecine does not work, or at least not really, with cmos chip cameras, yust in case you want to try.

The FUJI R25N in combination with the single8 pressureplate also contributes to the sharpness.

 

Daniel

[daniel mahlknecht]

actually between the film and the lens, not the camera and the lens...

[jason duncan]

I shoot without a modified gate at all. I just frame it in my 4:3 viewfinder for 16:9, ignoring the top and bottom 10% or so (whatever the math is). Then I transfer in HD.

 

The results are bad-ass. No need to mod your gate assuming you have a good lens. I've not really seen a good example of NON-mod gate vs mod-gate side by side to get a feel for quality difference. Obviously with Max-8 there's a better resolution, but I dunno if it's really noticable.

 

Some compressed footage here : http://vimeo.com/3021850

 

 

When you frame it in your viewfinder with widescreen in mind, knowing you are going to crop the top and botton 10% (+/-), do you pan-out, or not zoom-in too close to the subject for fear of cutting off too much of the image? And I assume the subject really has to be centered when you crop a 4x3 image to 16x9?

 

cute kiddie by the way!

Edited December 1, 2009 by jason duncan

[retoxproductions]

Does anyone know someone here in HOllywood that does gate modification at a reasonable price. All the alternatives seem to be from Canada!

[Jerry Kokich]

I shoot without a modified gate at all. I just frame it in my 4:3 viewfinder for 16:9, ignoring the top and bottom 10% or so (whatever the math is). Then I transfer in HD.

 

The results are bad-ass. No need to mod your gate assuming you have a good lens. I've not really seen a good example of NON-mod gate vs mod-gate side by side to get a feel for quality difference. Obviously with Max-8 there's a better resolution, but I dunno if it's really noticable.

 

Some compressed footage here : http://vimeo.com/3021850

 

I am new to Super8 film making, so please forgive what may sound like naive questions. How do you do your transfer? It makes perfect sense just to frame as if you were in 16:9, but could you guide me through the next steps. Also, if you have your film processed and transferred to, say, mini dv or a hard drive, what does one tell the transfer people?

 

Thanks for your time.

 

J

[Will Montgomery]

How do you do your transfer? Also, if you have your film processed and transferred to, say, mini dv or a hard drive, what does one tell the transfer people?

Much depends on your price range. A pro level HD transfer with a good colorist can be $300-$500 per hour of machine time (not your film run time). There you pay not only for a great machine but a talented person to adjust the color and "look" of the transfer. Other HD transfers can be had from $25/50' of film with varying degrees of quality.

 

If you are just starting out try having the people that process the film transfer it; like Dwayne's photo in Kansas can process your Ektrachrome and transfer it to MiniDV for $20 per 50' cartridge. Quality isn't that great but it would be a good baseline. Then have the same reel transferred by Cinelicous, Litepress, Spectra, Cinelab or Pro8mm to see what a colorist can do for you. There are many other telecine houses too, I'm not promoting one over another.

 

You can send a hard drive and most of these places will send you back Quicktime files ready to edit. Best way to understand is to just to do it. Consider it film school.

[ignacio benedeti]

I am using currently the 2:1 format using Iscorama lens with the ZC1000. Look this clip, filmed last week, in Velvia 50, exposed at 30 ISO, with the ZC1000, Leitz 10 mm prime lens and Iscorama 36: