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Hey humans, just curious:

 

This isn't an attack, I just wanna know: do we all HAVE to be cinematographers right off the bat? Wouldn't you rather be involved in the fringes of the industry, in some capacity, than not at all? Would doing low-end crap (not wedding/deposition low-end. . .well, maybe, whatever) for a while--you know, your corporate/non-broadcast stuff, your low-end for broadcast stuff, whatever, PAing, etc., be so bad? Just want opinions. This is for a while, not "this is as far as I'll ever make it." Is it all about the end result, or about the journey? Will you be a pissed off PA, a cantankerous camera assistant, and only happy when you finally "make it" to the position of DP, or could you extract pleasure from whatever you're doing at the time? I already know Mullen's position on this, and know that Rhodes does all sorts of things for a living, so the rest of you. . .

 

Ok, let the results start flowing in. . .

 

Wait. . .

 

Ok, hold on, let me calibrate this. . .

 

Ok. . .no, wait. . .

 

NOW!

Edited by Josh Bass
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I think it takes a long time to build a career in anything so one should get started on working towards that -- but one should also be doing what one enjoys. Life is short.

 

If one enjoys doing PA work or loading film, then one should do that. The journey MUST be as important as the end goal because none of us knows how long we have on this planet, so we better be enjoying the journey regardless of whether we get to the end...

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I would be equally thrilled to be a camera operator or even a 1st or 2nd AC for many years of my life. Similarly, I'd love to start out as a PA or a loader and would enjoy that as well. I just like working with film and video equipment (and audio, for that matter, but that's a different thread!) in some capacity, being on set, and helping to create something by being a part of it. To be honest, I think it's more likely that I will make a living as a camera operator than as a DP. But it's fun and I enjoy everything I'm doing. I don't really think of my future as anything to tie myself down to. There are a lot of people at my school right now who are freaking out about how they HAVE to grow up and be directors or DPs or whatever. I think you should just find what you're good at and keep learning, then see how things pan out. Granted at certain points in life I will have to make some more specific decisions, but it'll happen when it happens.

 

It reminds me of when I was in the animation program and everyone around me wanted to work for Pixar. Not me, I just wanted to find a small studio and make maquettes of characters and draw storyboards, then see where I could go from there. It's not that I sell myself short; I just try to stay realistic about things. I'm totally cool with starting at the "bottom of the ladder" and working my way up. How else would you do it anyway, right? I used to get worried about my future until I realized that your future is happening to you every day and if you get too caught up in the end result, you will miss the process completely.

 

So I practice everything I do, every day: packing and carrying equipment, loading mags, building cameras, learning about lights, cleaning lenses, whatever. While some of my fellow students feel that they are above the role of loader while on set, or that they must do more "important" things as well, I say hey, give me the mag and I'll do it- while you mope about not getting to decide where the lights go! It's better than not getting involved and it's a way to get your foot in the door for other jobs. At this point in my life I can't really imagine working any other way.

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I completly agree with Annie. Any chance to get my hands on a Panavision camera, meet people and be a part of something great is a chance I want to take! I just have to get somewhere where I can get started. I have NO experience at all with anything other than SLR's and still photography.

 

Annie, what film school do you attend? Any thoughts on it? And to anyone out there, where do I go to get started??????

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Anyway, I basically decided a year ago that my "way in" will be to try and get work at a rental house when I'm done with school and start networking from there, picking up whatever freelance work I can along the way. When I've got more money I'll see about getting positions on bigger crews. You have to start small but more importantly, you have to START, period!

 

I have no idea if my little plan will work out. I have no doubt that I will end up "throwing away" thousands of dollars just getting there,  but I might as well give it a shot because it's still better than sitting on your ass wondering what your life would have been like if you'd taken a risk. Just my two cents and then again, maybe I push myself way too hard, but I'd rather look back and say I did too much, than look back and say I didn't do enough.

 

You have to start period. Well said, and true.

 

Sounds like a good plan to me. The method you describe has been used to success for many many years.

 

Kevin Zanit

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" . . . Any chance to get my hands on a Panavision camera . . . "

 

That comment reminded me of the time I realized just how desensitized I had become:

 

I remember the days where I was so excited to play with the Panavision cameras, then I started working there, and at some point it just became gear. Gear that needed cleaning, was heavy, had cases that needed to be cleaned as well, all that good stuff.

 

After I stopped working there, sometime latter, I came in to prep a show I was doing. I walked up to the camera while the 1st was doing focus tests, and realized that these things are still pretty damn nifty. :D

 

Kevin Zanit

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I go to the Savannah College of Art and Design in Savannah, GA. As for Georgia, the opportunities are pretty poop and most people looking for freelance work outside the college could care less if you even know anything beyond turning on a video camera. I'd say our big moment of glory is the Savannah Film and Video Festival in October.

 

BUT the resources at the college are great and the faculty is getting better every year. And of course as somebody who handles it every day, I would *have* to say that the equipment is very nice. But then again, I can't think of any other school who has a Moviecam, or enough Jokers and Arri HMIs to light up the entire park and then some...or Avid Symphony and Media Composer stations with terrabytes of space...four Super 16 SR-II cameras....four HD cameras....five SR-IIs, 2 Aaton XTRs, more than 10 DVX-100s, a ridiculous amount of high-end studio microphones and audio gear, and plenty more. (This is the point where I sigh dreamily and stare into space)

 

As for Panavision, we had a workshop at the school during the film festival and it was pretty cool; I'll second the nifty AND the heavy! :-P Seems like the feature everyone liked the most was the eyepiece heater; the least, the little button under the handle that releases the camera...!

 

I know what you mean about becoming desensitized to the equipment. You tend to forget that everything you're hauling around and cleaning every day, costs at least as much as a used car. On the other hand, it does teach you not to be intimidated by the size or cost of the gear. Funny story, we kept the Panastar II and the G2 in the back for a few days after the workshop. On the day we were getting ready to pack it up to go back on the truck to LA, some prospective students came through to check out the equipment and I pulled them aside: "So we have pretty good equipment. Millions of dollars' worth. Wanna see something REALLY nice?" I went to the back, hauled out one of the Panavision lens cases, and opened it. "Well...THIS lens probably cost more than your parents' house!"

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Imho, working for a rental house is a complete waste of time...it has nothing to do with cinematography or creative filmmaking. I'm intensely passionate and driven to become a superior filmmaker, and would rather be on a set learning from DPs, and directors anyday then packing hampers and hoping someone will notice my charming smile. If you want to shoot, then shoot, period...or at least be around people who are shooting, and observe/absorb. I rather make s**t money but continual progress then being some drone making money but no artistic progress. That's just my opinion, but then again I'm a person who is driven by passion rather then rational judgement.

Edited by DavidSloan
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Well, that's a good point, I can see where you're coming from and I must admit it is one of my fears (forgetting about the art in pursuit of the money...) . I don't have any definite plans just yet; I'm just trying to get a sense of my options once I'm out of school. On a side note, who here has chosen that particular line of work at one point or another (rental house, that is) and how do you feel about it? Do you think it would be worthwhile for a short period of time, not at all, part time, or what? Right now my job has had quite a positive impact on my ability to find sets and freelance jobs to work on, but again, I don't know if it will be that way somewhere else. I wish I could find out sooner, but my school is a little ridiculous about off-campus trips- as in, you don't really get any unless you do it through the school. :rolleyes:

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Dose anyone know of any rental houses or other places to get into anywhere other than LA or NY? Maybe some places a 19 year-old can afford to live on his own???

 

Well, there are smaller production markets all over the U.S. (Chicago, Austin, Orlando, etc.) but it's hard to have it both ways, be surrounded by opportunities to work in the film industry while living in a smaller city with affordable housing... Smaller markets have smaller opportunities but usually lower living expenses.

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You are 19 and still have the whole road ahead if you. The good thing about being married and having kids now is that by the time you are in your late 30?s your kids will be getting ready to move out and you will have the freedom to travel at a time when hopefully your career is in full swing. My advice would be to get your self a low level job in the industry like a PA or in a rental house for example. That way you can get an income to support your family. You will also get a chance to see whether the vibe in the visual capture industry is for you. In your spare time start shooting projects and gaining experience. Work hard at what ever level you are working because the work habits you learn here will be with you forever.

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This is why everyone I met in the industry growing up told me to do anything BUT what they do. If you are truly meant for this work, you will somehow figure it out. If it's in your blood you will do whatever you can to just get jobs on sets as a PA or anything. The most importnat thing you can do is meet people who are already doing it and have them like you. It's a highly competitive business that squashes the weak and unmotivated. It's taken me almost 10 years where I don't have to do anything but shoot. So you have to be in it for the long haul.

 

The bottom line is to just get onto sets any way you can and as soon as you become a valuable, you will start earning some money.

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I have a problem with all the "Just get a job at a rental house" advice. That is probably harder to do than get a job as DP on a 35mm feature. I tried for many years to get a job at Victor Duncan that later became Panavision Dallas. I only got called for an interview once in like 20 tries and it was, "we might need somebody in a few weeks." I guess they didn't.

 

Even though I am now a DP I would and have PA'd on short gigs if they pay. Just because you're DP doesn't mean you're rich. But it seems lately the more my name is out there it's a little akward doing anything else. At some point you have to be a DP and nothing else.

 

In response to the 'Why does everybody have to be a DP?' comment I wonder just that. Why do so many people want to be DP lately? It seems there is glut of them everywhere. I know there is in Texas. Everybody and there dog buys a camera and becomes a DP. I've lost jobs recently to "L.A." guys who seem to just have an address there but haven't ever even shot a frame of film there. Some of these guys show you a resume as long as your arm and then their reel doesn't live up to it. I would love to be there when these guy's bite off more than they can chew and get on a big effects laden feature or something and then crash and burn.

Edited by J. Lamar King
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To tell you the truth guys, I would be wonderfuly happy if I was a 1st or just an operator. And if the DP I was working for liked me and my creative opinios were valuable (and if the DP was a cool enough guy to want others thoughts) i would be happy just operating a camera and giving sum input every once in a while. I just wanna shoot, man, thats all...

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Oh boy....has any one else noticd, that is the second time Natalie Portman has come up on this forum in the span of a few days...I almost directed you to the thread where I commented, "Someone told me I look like Natalie Portman" but I just couldn't do it!

 

Anyway... I think Mr. Steelberg said it well: everyone has a different way to get where they want to be, and you either figure it out or you don't. (And along the way, you may or may not sleep with Nicole Kidman, Scarlett Johanson, or Natalie Portman :-P)

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To tell you the truth guys, I would be wonderfuly happy if I was a 1st or just an operator.  And if the DP I was working for liked me and my creative opinios were valuable (and if the DP was a cool enough guy to want others thoughts) i would be happy just operating a camera and giving sum input every once in a while.  I just wanna shoot, man, thats all...

 

If you see yourself doing anything other then painting with light, you have no business to even talk about cinematography. To truly want to become a DP it has to be the ONLY thing that makes you happy. It's all about an intense, burning passion, and a willingness to sacrifice.

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Yeah, its not that I dont have the passion to do cinematography. I was simply saying that on the looooong way to the top, I would not be miserable operating camears, being a 1st...etc. I have a very strong passion for cinematography and I am not going to stop working until I achive my goal of becoming a DP. Im just not gonna be unhappy about what its going to take to get there, so yeah, I think I do have business talking about cinematography.

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If you see yourself doing anything other then painting with light, you have no business to even talk about cinematography.  To truly want to become a DP it has to be the ONLY thing that makes you happy.  It's all about an intense, burning passion, and a willingness to sacrifice.

 

well, there's nothing wrong with learning a little craft, for crying out loud! :)

 

You can learn a lot from working with/for other pros. I wish I had done more of that!

Edited by PatrickNeary
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I hate when people think they can somehow work their way up to becoming a DP...this is not f**king McDonalds where you start out as a cashier and work your way into being regional manager. Film business doesn't work that way. To become a DP, you DP! You don't work your way up nothing.

 

Your ignorance leads you to apply conventional rules of corporate America to film. I know that some DPs started as ACs, or gaffers, etc; but in general it doesn't work that way. And BTW, becoming camera operator or 1st AC on good paying shoots is not that easy! I think it's pretty insulting to ACs, and Cam Ops that you somehow assume that you can just get one of those jobs while you're working your way up to becoming a DP. Being a skilled AC or Cam Op takes just as much commitment, and effort, to master, as cinematography.

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