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Well, the convention of working your way up to DP tends to come from the more old school studio system.

 

But, plenty of people make the jump. Tom Stern is a great example of a gaffer who fairly recently got bumped to DP (and does some great work).

 

A lot of guys pay the bills working big shows in some other job than DP; they shoot smaller projects in their off time.

 

You do make a good point about just how hard it is to even get work on a big show in any position.

 

That said, if you can get the work, it does look great on a resume when applying for jobs shooting.

 

I have several ASC members on my resume that I have gaffed for, etc whose names have helped get shooting jobs in the past.

 

 

Kevin Zanit

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I really have know idea how the film biz works, as I haven't gotten the chance to get involved with it yet. But the bottom line is, I want to be a DP. I want to make films and and make them look good. The sooner that happens, the better. But I will do whatever it takes to get there. I have only herd what others have said about becoming a DP. I wont know what to do until I get there. I guess I need to get started and see what happens...

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I hate when people think they can somehow work their way up to becoming a DP...this is not f**king McDonalds where you start out as a cashier and work your way into being regional manager.  Film business doesn't work that way.  To become a DP, you DP!  You don't work your way up nothing.

 

Actually, it DOES happen that way most of the time. The exception is the people who become operators or DP's without having worked as an assistant first. It can work either way, but the majority of DP's have been assistants and/or operators for years before they start shooting.

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Actually, it DOES happen that way most of the time.  The exception is the people who become operators or DP's without having worked as an assistant first.  It can work either way, but the majority of DP's have been assistants and/or operators for years before they start shooting.

 

I personally know a lot of DPs, in NYC, that shoot features, big budget music videos, and commercials. Most of them have never done anything else except shoot, right out of school.

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It is true that not all jobs work with the American Way of starting from the bottom. (The McDonald's analogy is a good one!) It is also true that we are taught from day one that anybody can do anything if they try hard enough. Well, god only knows how many lousy mediocre people have "Made it" in life due to *that* mentality! But then again, I haven't actually experienced any of this myself, because I haven't gotten out there yet. That's not to say I don't think it's true; I just can't vouch for it yet.

 

As far as where my interests lie, the more I do it, the more I realize that I really enjoy being a camera operator. For all I know, that could be What I Do for The Rest of My Life, so to speak. And that's cool. I just don't want to limit my options. For example, today at work we made balloon animals and I made a really nice little dog. So I could grow up and make little balloon dogs and make a living doing that. Just kidding, I would rather be a camera operator or a 1st AC.

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Hi,

 

> we are taught from day one that anybody can do anything if they try hard enough

 

Interesting you should mention that. It's long been my impression that most American kids are inculcated with the belief - no, actually, the factual understanding - that life is supposed to be wall to wall success and happiness and if it isn't happening at the moment, it can only be just around the corner. You'd have thought that this would engender a deep-seated sense of depression in people once they'd grown up and realises just how unpleasant life can really be, but you guys just seem to blast right through it... it's amazing, it really is.

 

Phil

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Hey Phil.

 

My guess is that the older nun who sings "Climb Every Mountain" in the Sound Of Music was not your favorite scene? :D

 

Again I hear where you're coming from to a degree. I'm from the UK and now live in Canada, so like you I can make an "outsiders" observation of my southern neighbours. BTW, I went to film school in the USA.

 

The Americans do have a unique success orientated culture. One that I admire because Canada is famous for its "Go for the bronze!!" attitude. Canadians just don't feel ok with 3rd place they revel in it!! "Look at us", they say, "we're not like those over achieving Americans we are distinct from them!!"

 

It really is incredible and sad. Failure is celebrated as a cultural icon in Canada.

 

The number of famous Hollywood people who are actually from Canada is just astounding. Most Americans are quite surprised to hear how many of their favorite stars are actually Canadian. These are the folks who get sick and tired of Canada's "Joy To Failure" attitude and go off in search of the American dream. I really can't blame them

 

Frank

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I personally know a lot of DPs, in NYC, that shoot features, big budget music videos, and commercials.  Most of them have never done anything else except shoot, right out of school.

OK, great. And I know plenty of people in LA that have never done anything but shoot, right out of school. I never said that it doesn't happen, but it is an exception to the rule. That seems to be slowly changing, but it's still the rule. I was never an assistant, but I'm an operator now, so I'm one of the exceptions.

Heck, it may be completely different in New York. DP's and operators just graduate from school and start shooting. Good for them if they can pull that off, but I seriously doubt that that's the norm.

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Why aren't there more women on cinematography.com?

 

I've heard that in L.A. there's great opertunities in the film industry - not sure if this includes cinematography though - is there any truth in this? Would it be worth my while uprooting and moving to the U.S., how could I get a work permit for long enough to find out? Clearly there is little work in the U.K...Phil, I can't believe with your technical knowledge that kind of blows me away sometimes, that you can't get enough good work!

 

Guy

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Guy,

 

Cinematography just isn't some thing that interests a lot of women. How many women DPs do you see listed at the end of feature films? How many directors, editors, SFX supervisors.....etc etc for that matter??? Not many.

 

You do see that women now dominate the casting directors role. But the techie stuff, well.....

 

So you want to up root and move to the USA to work in films?

 

Your chances of getting a work permit to work on films in LA is ZERO. Do some research on this and you'll see what I mean.

 

If you want to work in the USA and you're a single guy, you have one option, marry an American. Then you're in.

 

Frank

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Hi,

 

> I've heard that in L.A. there's great opertunities in the film industry

 

Well, it's one of only two or three places in the world where the artform is pursued as a legitimate industry, and not as a fringe artform. If you want to be able to do it five or six days a week as your main source of employment, unless you want to rely on being extremely lucky, you want to be anywhere but in the UK.

 

> how could I get a work permit for long enough to find out?

 

You can't. Film production work is almost entirely freelance and you cannot get a work permit to do that, period. There are various get-arounds, but really if you want to go and live there it's only a matter of a few months until they catch up with you. In effect, there's no way to do it legally, and if you do it illegally, you will be swiftly caught and barred from ever entering the US again.

 

> Phil, I can't believe with your technical knowledge that kind of blows me away

> sometimes, that you can't get enough good work!

 

Thanks, but my technical knowledge is nothing more than you can find out in half an hour on the web. What's difficult is experience, and in the UK even the top people often only have the experience of raw recruits in the US. The reason, for example, that US steadicam operators are so much better than UK ones (it's an excellent example because so much steadicam in the UK is done so abysmally badly) is that in LA they get to do it five days a week, thirty or forty weeks a year. Those guys are scarily good at what they do, it's really quite intimidating. Put a UK camera assistant up against someone who's just come off fifteen weeks on "The West Wing" and it'd really be quite embarrassing to watch the Brit film school grad fumble around.

 

Thing is, it gets worse than that. Your film school education is probably a complete waste of time as regards actual employability as you have been tutored by people who consider filmmaking an artform first and a vocation second; even in the best of circumstances you will have been taught how a UK set operates, that is you have been taught how things work in an industry that doesn't exist. They're teaching you how they would like it to work in an ideal world and they've probably presented it to you as common practice. And it is, on three or four features a year, mainly American funded. This means that there's a glass ceiling at which they can justify bringing in American crew on American funded productions - this will include DPs, and possibly even upper level camera assistants on really big shows. You will never do these jobs on shows that size, end of story.

 

And again, once you get to LA, even if you've obtained your work permit (somehow), there's still the startup costs of two or three years working for almost nothing while living in a place that's not quite as expensive as London, but considerably more so than Manchester, then union membership (quarter of a year's wages at that point probably, and the open hostility of locals whose jobs you're taking) before you're really "in."

 

Basically, forget about it. You, and I, and everyone else on this board who doesn't hold a blue passport, will almost certainly never be involved in mainstream narrative filmmaking. You have probably been told otherwise by your tutors, but ask yourself this: if it's so great, why are they teaching rather than doing? USC filmschool grads have classes taken by working DPs who take time out of actual shooting to take classes. I bet your place doesn't, because there are virtually no working DPs to do it.

 

LA opportunities are not necessarily great, but they can't help but be better than here. It's a complete wasteland.

 

Phil

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You know if I were young, I would give a serious look at places like India and Hong Kong.  Those places are set to explode in the near future.

China will probably be the next "runaway" production center. Warner Brothers is dealing with the Chinese government to try to build a studio there.

The fact is that if you're good at what you do you'll get work in LA. Yes, it's a struggle for a while, but it's very possible. Nasty and/or unqualified people work every day out here, so if you're good and friendly you can move up really quickly. Of course if you're stuck in the UK you may be out of luck. Isn't there a lottery or something for people that want to come to the US? There are so many immigrants in LA that it seems like it must be a breeze to get in, but I guess not.

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Hm...well, I'm not into the idea of leaving the country right now. But I'm glad that there are places other than the States for people who aren't sure where to start.

 

As far as women not being into cinematography, thought I'd chip in on this a bit before I turn in for the night- er, morning- (damn insomnia)... my friend actually did a documentary about women in the film industry and within our school, and a lot of them said the same thing: They found it harder to "break in" (whether into the industry or even into the group of film students at my school who DON'T shoot total crap!) because they either were intimidated or put off by the "male"ness of the industry (to which I say, "Uh...okay...what?") or they felt that they were passed over because maybe they weren't strong or assertive enough.

 

I don't see my gender as a handicap at all, because I don't make it that way. I show up on set dressed like a scrub and I don't whine about my hair getting messed up (although it does get in my face, that's what the Red Sox hat is for!) or anything stereotypical like that. I roll up my sleeves and I bust up my shins and I carry around a freakish amount of weight for my size. I do what needs to be done, just like the guys, and if they're put off by that, that's too bad; they're losing out! :P

 

Seriously, to the women who say that they are intimidated, I say, "Okay, well let's make it better, then. You don't feel that you're strong enough? GET strong. Not assertive enough? Think "like a guy". Watch how your male crew members behave on set and match it. Level with them instead of separating yourself. And for the love of god stop reading Cosmo and bullsh*t like that because it's full of stereotypes that aren't even true!"

 

I used to be intimidated and unsure of myself until I realized that being a woman in the industry or at film school is only awkward if I make it that way. I try to find people who I enjoy working with, and I stick with them. If anyone were to ever try and screw me over because of my gender, I would probably say to hell with them and try to get out of that situation as cleanly and politely as possible, without causing a big dramatic fuss.

 

Maybe I'm wrong and I have no idea what's coming to me. I think I am maybe one of three female camera operators at SCAD out of hundreds of film students. Most of the women at my school in the film dept. are script supervisors, writers, and editors. I guess my question is not, Why aren't there more women doing cinematography and camerawork but rather, as a woman, how big of a deal should I be making out of the fact that I'm female and a camera operator/1st AC instead of a more typical "female" set position? It is hard to figure out when to speak up and when to say Okay, I have a problem with the way I'm being treated. But I think that's a universal issue that both males and females face.

 

There's always another side to things too. I wonder about the guys who want to do costume design or art direction, and if they face equal discrimination or doubts. I just try to do my job well, regardless of my gender, but I'm sure other women might feel differently.

 

That $.02 was long as hell....!

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Hi,

 

India and Hong Kong seem OK, but I don't speak either language!

 

UK nationals are barred from entering the diversity immigrant visa lottery (Yes, another swift kick in the arse, aren't the INS lovely people.)

 

You will find that most immigrants there, as here, are people who've snuck in on the basis of heredity - their great-great-great grandparents' cousins were Americans or something. The UK does not have a large proportion of recent immigrants and the vast majority of locals, including me, are from families who were here when the Magna Carta was written. It is a matter of some concern to me that it's possible to work on a crew of ten in London and have four of them be Australians - this happens on the basis that there are enormous numbers of recent UK emigrants in Australia who can get a work permit on the basis of their parentage. I mean, I wouldn't mind, but the governments of places where that situation exists frequently don't reciprocate, so there are large numbers of people from ex-colonies like Australia, Canada, Hong Kong and the US in London on heredity visas, yet UK locals can't get a break in any of those places, or even, as we've seen, are actively barred from even trying.

 

I can work anywhere in Europe, but jesus, who gives a poop? London is the best we've got, and it's bloody miserable.

 

Phil

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That's no excuse, Phil.

 

English speaking nations never think about the fact that all us bloody foreigners have not only had to fight it in your industry, but we've had to learn the language, too. But doing it the other way around is for some reason not an option. It's comfy being born into an international language. I can count the brits I've met who can speak another language besides their own on my single hand.

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Phil,

 

You missed out on Hong Kong by a few years. UK nationals used to get work permits as of right. That ended in 1997 with the handover to China - but the place is still brimming with Brits.

 

You're right in that in Hong Kong you need to speak Cantonese to work in the industry - but one of the most favourable DPs here is a gwailo... he speaks Cantonese.

 

Perhaps you should just shoot your own movie.

 

That's what we're doing in Hong Kong. The place is as photogenic as anything, lots of technical resources, a film friendly government and full of money people to finance your projects.

 

But that's true in London too.

 

If I was you I'd spend the rest of your winter working on a script and shoot a short movie in and around the UK, or find a nice place in Europe. Then sell it as a project to fund a full production.

 

See this website for some guys who did exactly that in Hong Kong...

 

http://www.exitstrategythemovie.com/

 

Basically they are a load of Brits in Hong Kong (since before 97) that made a short movie with the intention of making the real deal... by proving that they had the balls.

 

One thing is true - to do it you have to do it not wish for it.

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Hi,

 

> shoot your own movie... the place is as photogenic as anything, lots of technical resources, a film

> friendly government and full of money people to finance your projects.

> But that's true in London too.

 

Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha, ha, ha, ha.

 

(thump desk)

 

Ha, ha, ha!

 

(gasp for breath)

 

Ha, ha!

 

Edit: Okay, perhaps I'd better expand on that a little. Shoot my own movie? Great, got £100,000? This is one of the most expensive places in the world to shoot, possibly only one down on Tokyo. There is no quality independent film scene here. Photogenic? London is the single ugliest place I know. Damp and grey and colourless, filled with ugly, dismal people, wet litter, gaudily-tiled sixties architecture and a million branches of Burger King. London is like a cheap, hacked-off imitation of a city - a plasticky grey-import pretence of a has-been which decayed a hundred years ago and hasn't quite realised it yet. Hong Kong is a thriving pacific rim seaport. See the difference? The "film friendly government" long since shut down tax breaks for film. The money people finance you if you are making a Hugh Grant romantic comedy. Otherwise, forget it.

 

As to languages, British failure in the field is assured by a school system that doesn't begin to teach languages until you're at least 12 or 13 and have forgotten how. The other thing with it is this: if you already speak the most commonly-used language in your field, what do you learn? You could plump for one, but you'd almost certainly spend years achieving proficiency in something you'll never use.

 

Phil

Edited by Phil Rhodes
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> Phil, I can't believe with your technical knowledge that kind of blows me away

> sometimes, that you can't get enough good work!

 

Thanks, but my technical knowledge is nothing more than you can find out in half an hour on the web.

 

Phil, I'd say there's one thing looking it up on the internet and another understanding it, and quickly! You must be looking in the wrong places - though I'm sure you've tried everywhere! I realise why you're so bitter about this industry!

 

Getting back to the origonal point, I think young people by the sounds of it are heading into a poor industry that they stand little chance of breaking in2 - especially in the U.K. but personally there's nothing I'd rather comit my life to trying to achieve (apart from a pilot or a rally driver)! either of those look likely - though I'm sure some of you will tell me I've got a better chance doing that. But if I didn't dedicate my years to trying and went off to become something totally boring I'd regret it for the rest of my life! Where there's a will there's a way n all that. Like for instance I was setting up some lights today in a studio and basically took charge and told everyone not to touch 'my lights' and I thought this is such a cool job, I wanna do this for a living. Am I wierd? Maybe after many years of frustration my attitudes will change! Still I'm prepared to die trying!!

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Hi,

 

Yes, but I don't speak the language there, either. It seems that most crews there are out of the US anyway.

 

Phil

Most of the time it's just the above the line people and a couple of keys that are American. From what I understand the rest of the crew is hired from around Europe, including the UK. You'll never work on bigger projects if you don't try though.

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