Cheating night

Gav O Reilly · February 7, 2005

I'm trying to figure out a way to create a night look for a scene which was going to be shot at night, but we no longer have permission to shoot there at night.

I know there are loads of ways to shoot day for night, and they have all been debated to death on these boards but there are a few akward points with this scene that limit my options so I'd like to get some specific advice.

First there's the location: We can only have it for a few hours in the afternoon and we had to push hard to get that. It's a section of train track with a big black steam train on it and the actors will be at the foot of the train. At that time the sun will be in front of the camera and on the opposite side of the train to the actors. It's likely to be overcast and i am worried about the actors being in the gloom and shadow cast by the train.

Second: There is an earlier scene in the film at that location but during the day. The night scene will have to look different, (not just underexposed).

Third: Getting lights onto the site is a problem in that the location owners don't want us to, because of health and safety issues. (We're fully covered by insurance, really it's an internal politics thing).

Fourth: No blues. The director has decided on a colour pallette of warm, golden, sepia tinted tones in which all blues are to be treated like the plague, so no blue tinted DFN filters.

I'm running out of options now, so any suggestions would be GREATLY apprieciated...

Glenn Hanns · February 8, 2005

First there's the location: We can only have it for a few hours in the afternoon and we had to push hard to get that. It's a section of train track with a big black steam train on it and the actors will be at the foot of the train. At that time the sun will be in front of the camera and on the opposite side of the train to the actors. It's likely to be overcast and i am worried about the actors being in the gloom and shadow cast by the train.

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Can they be carrying a lantern? This will help sell the "night" effect and give you some motivated fill if they're in the shadows.

Fourth: No blues. The director has decided on a colour pallette of warm, golden, sepia tinted tones in which all blues are to be treated like the plague, so no blue tinted DFN filters.
I'm running out of options now, so any suggestions would be GREATLY apprieciated...

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A night scene that is golden?

Chris Keth · February 8, 2005

What lights are there already? You're going to have to add your own lights somehow or 9 times out of 10 it'll look like crap. Very seldom can you get away with available light.

February 8, 2005

A night scene that is golden?

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I don't see why not, there are plenty of golden tones on any average night, you'll just have to motivate it by something other than moonlight. Car headlights, train headlight, windows from the train, burning coal (or anything burning coming from the engine compartment), sodium vapor street lights, etc. There are plenty of things you can do without having to rely on convention.

I'm not sure how deep into the night the story calls for but would it even be possible to motivate it as a very late dusk?

Chris Keth · February 8, 2005

It would help to know what is there already. Perhaps he can shoot one establishing shot actually at night to establish the sources of light present. That will make any colored light he brings in believable.

Glenn Hanns · February 8, 2005

I don't see why not, there are plenty of golden tones on any average night, you'll just have to motivate it by something other than moonlight. Car headlights, train headlight, windows from the train, burning coal (or anything burning coming from the engine compartment), sodium vapor street lights, etc. There are plenty of things you can do without having to rely on convention.

I'm not sure how deep into the night the story calls for but would it even be possible to motivate it as a very late dusk?

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Sure source lighting is everywhere including one big one at night! Convention is based on something called reality!

February 8, 2005

Sure source lighting is everywhere including one big one at night! Convention is based on something called reality!

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Yes but there's absolutely no reason you can't break away from convention and still have it look believable. If you light it with the proper contrast and motivation I'm sure that any audience would readily accept it as night. Also, practical lights, unless incredibly weak, are far brighter at night than moonlight anyhow; the "moonlight" in films is always cheated to quite a large degree. I'm not saying anything should be done one way or the other, just that there are many options and one shouldn't be constrained by pre-established conventions. If you look at "Collateral," it took on a very greenish hue for it's nighttime environment. According to the AC article, Michael Mann originally wanted the LA nightscape to be in an entirely golden pallette. Now, obviously a trainyard or traintracks or wherever it may be is not the same as downtown LA by any means, but that doesn't mean that it has to be blue.

I don't mean to start a debate, I just don't like to see when people feel there is only one way to do things.

Gav O Reilly · February 8, 2005

Well there aren't really any practicals there that are feasable to use but I will look into the lantern idea.

I also like the sound of the 'golden night'. I think a post grade would be the best way to achieve that though.

If I were to try and exagerate the contrast, emphisise the shadows, as though the light was coming only from a warm street lamp: how would I control the overcast/soft day light to give it a harder directional feel? Also any tips on upping the contrast? (Shooting Super 16 - haven't chosen stock yet).

Edited February 8, 2005 by Gav O Reilly

Phil Rhodes · February 8, 2005

Hi,

> I think a post grade would be the best way to achieve that though.

Why? Stick an 85 filter in front of it and correct back, you'll get warm shadows.

Phil

Gav O Reilly · February 13, 2005

Well I was thinking more of warm highlights and Black shadows.

Since posting this question our access to this location has completely fallen through, thanks for the help though. Our backup location however gives us the option of shooting at night (with lamps).

I think i'm gonna try and stay with the golden night look coz the director really liked the sound of it. Any ideas how to achieve this? Or recomendations on a good high contrast stock that's fast enough for night photography?