Dark Knight Rises, no 3D and in IMAX

[Eric Moers]

The Laemmle's may have good projectionists I guess, but they have the worst equipment, screens, etc. so it's all for nothing. I used to hate the fact that any serious 70mm print (like for "Hamlet") went to Laemmle's Royal theater. I generally dread having to see a movie at a Laemmle theater; the Landmark art house theaters in town are a lot better.

 

 

I've seen a few shows projected at the Laemmle theaters, and they've all been poor presentations. Their projectors have very dim bulbs, the dolby surround reader never works, focus drifting... The Egyptian theater on the other hand, I'd say is the best theater in LA. The 35mm/70mm presentations are often flawless. Arclight theaters are usually solid. David, what other theaters do you think compare in quality?

[David Mullen ASC]

I've seen a few shows projected at the Laemmle theaters, and they've all been poor presentations. Their projectors have very dim bulbs, the dolby surround reader never works, focus drifting... The Egyptian theater on the other hand, I'd say is the best theater in LA. The 35mm/70mm presentations are often flawless. Arclight theaters are usually solid. David, what other theaters do you think compare in quality?

 

Well, if you are talking about art house and revival, there aren't a lot of other choices anyway beyond the Cinematheque -- there's Laemmle, Landmark, a few theaters in museums and universities, etc. I'm ignoring revival houses like the New Beverly Cinema entirely (they can't even point a projector directly at the screen, they have to use mirrors or a periscope system, and the projection is dim.)

 

Otherwise, Arclight and the Cinematheque are the best in general. The AMPAS Goldwyn and Pickford theaters are nice, so is UCLA's theater.

 

For art house fare, the Nuart does a pretty good job (I think they are Landmark now) compared to the Laemmle's. The Laemmle Santa Monica and Sunset Five are pretty poor, sort of bad 70's/80's shoebox multiplex design with mediocre projectors and sound. The Royal is an older theater but the projection throw is way too far.

 

For first run, I'm happy with the Rave (formerly the Cinema Du Lux) at the Bridge in Howard Hughes Parkway -- it's near me, it's rarely crowded, and most of the screens are digital and pretty consistent.

[Chris Fernando]

But the 35mm print version tends to be the worst all-around in most theaters, except for black levels, which tend to be better than most digital projectors can achieve. But otherwise, you have poor/uneven focus across the whole width for 35mm scope print projection, you have steadiness problems, you have dirt & dust, and you have wear-and-tear after the first week of release. I'm generally much happier with the digital presentation. But at least IMAX blow-ups are super-steady and the projection tends to be fairly clean, and the focus even and consistent.

 

It's a shame that theatres don't do more to make sure print projection takes advantage of all the possibilities. To my eye, barring the scratches and dirt, there's something about the color depth and fidelity (maybe it's the "organic" black levels) that stil make film projection second to none.

 

I caught up with 'Inception' at a Krikorian on a 2K projector and some of the jaggies around faces on close-ups (granted, I was looking for it) were a bit distracting.

 

Which is another thing, I thought of that day: Why don't theatres tell you how a show is being projected anymore? I don't seem to remember "Digital Projection" being touted anywhere (or anymore, for that matter). What if you want a choice? There's something about watching a Wally Pfister show digitally that just doesn't seem right.

[K Borowski]

I'm obviously a big fan of 35mm projection too, but "Inception" isn't a fair comparison. It was finished on film, so the digital master was probably scanned from the master positive rather than the OCN.

 

At the same time, comparing a 4th generation copy of a 2K file to DLP isn't fair either. I'm not sure you *can* be objective here. Comparing a digitally shot movie to a contact-printed 35mm film would probably be the most objective way to do this.

 

 

As for telling audiences movies are DLP, there is an all-digital chain that brags about it in every ad, even going so far to put (DLP) in parentheses next to every Single TITLE. My favorite, though is all the XD, DIgitial Imax, and I forget what the Regal and AMC versions are called.

 

All of this garbage is still 2K digital projection (Imax is the only one that is even moderately better than a standard DLP projector). Unless, of course, there are theatres using 1.4K still out there, all theatres have the same resolution for DLPs. These "premium" projection experiences just blow up the same file on a bigger screen. So beware. . .

 

 

Meanwhile, amazingly, many of the theatres with the Sony 4K projectors, which are better than 35mm film in just about all respects except dynamic range, DON'T advertise this fact. They ought to use something catchy like "4x HD" or "4x DLP." I know of a certain chain that got 4K projectors, but sent the 2D lenses back. The 3D lenses they have mean they can only play a 2D movie at roughly 2K. :blink:

[Ravi Kiran]

Meanwhile, amazingly, many of the theatres with the Sony 4K projectors, which are better than 35mm film in just about all respects except dynamic range, DON'T advertise this fact. They ought to use something catchy like "4x HD" or "4x DLP." I know of a certain chain that got 4K projectors, but sent the 2D lenses back. The 3D lenses they have mean they can only play a 2D movie at roughly 2K. :blink:

 

How many of them are currently showing 4K movies though? Aren't most DIs still being done at 2K?

[David Mullen ASC]

How many of them are currently showing 4K movies though? Aren't most DIs still being done at 2K?

 

None so far.

[K Borowski]

None so far?

 

 

I haven't been keeping track, but there are a handful of 4K movies every year. I have no idea where SONY 4K projectors are, but they are out there, and I'm sure some of the owners have a standard 2D lens that can take advantage of the 4K chip. If you have a 4K projector, and a 4K movie on a harddrive, you should be able to show a 4K movie, no?

[K Borowski]

http://www.examiner.com/digital-cinema-technology-in-los-angeles/more-digital-cinema-4k-movies-coming-to-your-local-movie-house

 

 

 

This guy isn't exactly an industry insider, but I remember "The Da Vinci Code" being meantioned as a 4K film back in '06. I want to say the remake of "Omen" was 4K, but am not sure. It's highly improbable that there hasn't been a *single* 4K release.

 

While I guess a studio could subsequently decide to only release a movie in 2K anyway, it wouldn't really make sense. You'd need 2 harddrives (or one with twice the capacity instead of one), but that's still a trivial cost compared to a 35mm print. And you can, of course, recoup the cost by reusing the harddrives.

[K Borowski]

Courtesy Sony Electronics, Inc.:

 

What is Sony doing to encourage more 4K content from the Hollywood studios?

We continue to work closely with each studio on delivering the right digital solution. The studios are very supportive of digital distribution, and specifically 4K resolution, with many executives citing that as their future direction... For example, Sony Pictures Entertainment has already made 4K a centerpiece of its distribution plans for the majority of its motion pictures. But perhaps the best example of the growing acceptance of, and demand for, 4K content occurred recently when 3 major studio motion pictures - which were all released within a month of each other - were made available to theaters for 4K projection.

 

 

I can't find the titles of these three movies anywhere though. <_<

[David Mullen ASC]

The 4K screenings of "The DaVinci Code" were more for Sony test / demo / promo purposes.

 

Sure, quite a number of movies have been mastered at 4K, it's just that none of them made and shipped 4K DCP's for 4K theaters. So far, since most theaters have 2K projectors, the distributors aren't interested in making separate 2K and 4K DCP's for the theater chains, plus I'm not sure how many of those theaters with 4K projectors are ready to handle 4K files. I'm sure it will happen eventually.

 

So most 4K screenings have been special events to demo the projector or something. Unfortunately a number of 4K masters have mainly just shown-off how grainy some Super-35 productions can be -- people who saw the 4K screening of "The DaVinci Code" mentioned that to me, that visible grain was the most significant "improvement" over the 2K version.

 

I'm glad that both Sony and Warner Brothers are both committed to a 4K future, with a lot of preservation going on in 4K as well for older titles. But that's just two studios. I wouldn't be surprised though if Disney got on the 4K bandwagon eventually; they were the first to do a 4K D.I. decades ago when they restored "Snow White". But Universal and Paramount have never been big on preservation.

[Antti Näyhä]

Some films are definitely distributed as 4K DCP's already. I personally handled and projected a 4K DCP of Inception recently. I can post photos if you wish. :)

 

The D-Cinema spec actually defines downwards compatibility between 2K and 4K, so all 4K DCP's should run on 2K projectors and the distributors shouldn't have to make separate 2K DCP's at all. It's done in a really clever way technically, no less: each frame is first stored as 2K, and then there's an additional layer in the file which contains just the extra resolution information for a 4K system. So there's no need for processor-intensive (and possibly image-deteriorating) downscaling.

 

Of course, that's the way it works in theory, and there might me compatibility problems with older hardware/software. Dunno. But at least for me, the 4K DCP worked beautifully with our brand-new setup (a Barco 2K projector and a Dolby screen server).

 

It's actually quite ironic that Inception was distributed in 4K in Finland. There's just one 4K projector in the whole country, and that's installed in our National Audiovisual Archive's reference cinema, where it's being used for demo purposes and special screenings. They're showing 4K restorations of Dr. Strangelove and The Bridge on the River Kwai in a couple of weeks – I hope to catch at least one of them!

 

Unfortunately a number of 4K masters have mainly just shown-off how grainy some Super-35 productions can be -- people who saw the 4K screening of "The DaVinci Code" mentioned that to me, that visible grain was the most significant "improvement" over the 2K version.

I completely agree. Also, the Sony 4K SXRD had worse black levels than a 2K DLP – at least back in 2006.

Edited November 8, 2010 by Antti Näyhä

[K Borowski]

I hear Sony 4Ks have problems with brightness (making them too dim for big screens) and I know you always have to leave the cooling fans on, not sure why.

 

 

Are there any other functional 4K projectors out there?

 

Thanks for the info., BTW Antti. I didn't know "Inception" got a 4K master. That bums me out even more that I missed seeing it in IMAX. The article clip I posted from Sony was dated early 2009, so those three unnamed titles on there should have already hit screens. . .

[Antti Näyhä]

Are there any other functional 4K projectors out there?

At least Barco, NEC and Christie should be rolling out their 4K projectors early next year. Apparently they're all based on the same TI DLP chip.

[K Borowski]

Wow, talk about competition :rolleyes:

 

I wasn't sure if Sony was the only one or not. I knew that Christie already had a "4K compatible" projector out.

 

 

 

Unfortunately, the trend of "grainy S35" is probably going to get worse before it gets better with 2-perf. movements out there now.

[georg lamshöft]

"Inception" (despite being anamorphic - not S35) looked brilliant on 70mm-IMAX. Not über-sharp (they didn't even scan from the ON) but quite detailed (definitely beyond HD) and surpringly smooth with very little grain and yet no artifacts of DNR.

 

From my experience (cinema, blu-ray, still photography scans) 4k scans are less grainy than 2k scans at the same magnification. 4k starts to see individual grain, 2k just shows an alaising artifact that looks somehow like grain (-> see the 4k+ document from ARRI). That's why 4k mastering even makes sense for restoration of old films (Blade Runner, Aliens...) even if it's just an 1080p output.

 

A proper 4k DI with digital 4k projection from a modern 35mm stock should look excellent! Even if there is prominent grain, it doesn't seem to be so difficult to remove it without adding additional artifacts.

 

As far as I understand, certain people already insist on 4k DIs for quite some time - like Roger Deakins. It doesn't seem to be an question of absolute budget but of the willingness to spend a few additional bucks at all.

 

In comparison, so called 4k-aquisition with bayer-filtered cameras doesn't even look very detailed at 2k in comparison.

[Vincent Sweeney]

The nicest (modern) theater I have been to is the "Muvico" in Thousand Oaks, CA, just outside LA. All 4K Sony theaters, super clean, automated ticket machines if preferred, reserve your seat, etc. They also have a Premiere Seating option for $21 which you have to be 21 or over to buy, which helps keep noise/talking down, the seats are huge recliners, a good comparison to normal theaters would be first-class and coach on an airplane, and you get free popcorn with that. There is also a reasonably priced restaurant in the lobby, upstairs. It is at a new shopping mall but isn't directly connected. Lots of places to eat and parking is easy/free and it's in a nice area. The screens are huge, sound is perfect, projection is real nice; very hard to beat.

 

Muvico website

[Vincent Sweeney]

Copied from a JoBlo article:

 

Remember the 6-minute prologue for THE DARK KNIGHT RISES that is supposed to play before MISSION IMPOSSIBLE: GHOST PROTOCOL? Well, it's been confirmed by Warner Bros. and accompanied by a list of the IMAX theaters that will be playing it.

 

A press release was issued stating that the film (Mission Impossible) will be released in North America on December 16, and in the UK on December 21, 2011. Additional international dates vary by territory and will be announced soon.

 

There is also a small quote from Christopher Nolan on the prologue, “Our experience on ‘The Dark Knight’ shooting and projecting IMAX 15 perf 65mm/70mm film was inspiring. The immersive quality of the image goes beyond any other filmmaking tool available, and in revisiting Gotham, we were determined to shoot even more of the movie in this unique format. Giving the fans an early look at an IMAX sequence is a great way to draw attention to what I believe will be an incredible way to experience our story when it comes out next summer.”

[Freya Black]

Sony have a page about 4k cinema releases going back a few years!

You can see it here:

 

4k cinema releases

 

They also have a page listing the few locations with Sony 4k installations:

 

Sony 4k installations

 

Hope that helps!

 

love

 

Freya

[Marcus Joseph]

Copied from a JoBlo article:

 

Remember the 6-minute prologue for THE DARK KNIGHT RISES that is supposed to play before MISSION IMPOSSIBLE: GHOST PROTOCOL? Well, it's been confirmed by Warner Bros. and accompanied by a list of the IMAX theaters that will be playing it.

 

A press release was issued stating that the film (Mission Impossible) will be released in North America on December 16, and in the UK on December 21, 2011. Additional international dates vary by territory and will be announced soon.

 

There is also a small quote from Christopher Nolan on the prologue, “Our experience on ‘The Dark Knight’ shooting and projecting IMAX 15 perf 65mm/70mm film was inspiring. The immersive quality of the image goes beyond any other filmmaking tool available, and in revisiting Gotham, we were determined to shoot even more of the movie in this unique format. Giving the fans an early look at an IMAX sequence is a great way to draw attention to what I believe will be an incredible way to experience our story when it comes out next summer.”

I will try to see MI4 at the Sydney theater on the 14th, might be among the first in the world to see the prologue, really looking forward to it.

[Markshaw]

I for one am ecstatic about no 3D and Imax. With IMAX you will be sucked into the movie.

[Adrian Sierkowski]

my new catch phrase these days is "if i wanted to see 3 d I'd go to a play."

[Francesco Bonomo]

my new catch phrase these days is "if i wanted to see 3 d I'd go to a play."

 

 

same here :D

[Chris Warren]

I saw an early screening of the prologue last night. F'n amazing!!! I was in such awe at the IMAX sequence, so beautiful!!! I cannot wait for this film to come out! I think this is some of Wally's best work yet.

[K Borowski]

same here :D

 

 

I like that Adrian. I think a play is too general though, for it to be really catchy. The whole world is in 3D except for human imagery. I'd have to think about it, and I have work to do.

 

But, for starters, if I were seeing a hard-boiled detective movie, I'd say something like: "I'd rather go see 'Brooklyn's Finest,' or if I wanted 3D I'd go to a real cocaine bust. :-) "

 

It almost has to be tailored to the genre of movie being discussed. :-D

 

 

 

Back to "Dark Knight and MI-3" I plan on journeying out of the state to see the latter in real IMAX. I wonder if I will have that option when "Dark Knight," or if they will have scrapped all the 15/70 installs by then :-(

[K Borowski]

Just thought I'd post:

 

 

My comments regarding how a lot of "Big 3" theatres have SCRAPPED their 15/70 IMAX's since Dark Knight I were PROMPTLY deleted from Cinemark's forum.

 

 

Shows the secretive corporate B@$%&*!s don't want that fact made public.

 

 

 

 

Here are two sites that will help all of you avoid the flat-out, outright, brazen ripoff of paying essentially a premium to see bluray quality "hold-up" on an IMAXsized screen:

 

http://hollywood-elsewhere.com/arthouse/2009/05/the-variable-imax-experience.php

 

INTERNATIONAL LOCATIONS: http://www.lfexaminer.com/theaintl.htm

 

UNITED STATES LOCATIONS: http://www.lfexaminer.com/theaUSA.htm

 

 

 

Most "Dome" IMAX/OMNIMAX won't be playing the film, there's a second column indicating FLAT or DOME style screens.

 

 

 

DO NOT WASTE MONEY SEEING DIGITAL IMAX. IT'S WORSE THAN 4K PROJECITON or 35mm. . .