16mm in the $500 to $700

[Rick Cook]

Hey There!

 

I am doing some research, and would appreciate any input you guys have.

 

I sold some old gear I had been sitting on for a while, and was able to pick up around $800 for it all. So I was thinking of putting it towards a nice affordable 16mm camera.

I've considered the k3. But I feel like I could do better then that within the range of $500-700. Range. Is there a decent camera (pref. One that has a motor) that anyone could point me towards?

 

I've watched a couple Kinor's on ebay, but all are mostly "untested".

[Matthew W. Phillips]

There is a CP-16R on ebay right now for buy it now $575. The only thing that is wrong with it is that the trigger switch doesnt work and it runs constantly when the button on the back is turned on. So you basically use the rear switch as the trigger. Its a great deal and if you dont buy it, I will next week.

 

CP-16R has 24fps crystal sync motor, 2 400' magazines, and an interchangable lens setup. Doesnt get any better than that for this price range.

[Will Montgomery]

Much depends on how and what you want to shoot. Having owned about 10 different low to mid-range 16mm cameras I can tell you that for me, ease of use is really important.

 

I've had a K3 and was lucky to get a good one. Take great shots and there are plenty of M42 mount lenses out there to try. Problem with that camera is the winding...I was always missing a shot while I wound the thing.

 

Kodak K-100 is a good camera too but no through-the-lens focusing; the wind lasts a very long time, more than a K3 for sure.

 

CP-16R is great if you have time to setup a shot and is a much more professional camera.

 

If you're running around and need to load film quickly, nothing beats a Scoopic. One of the newer ones, the M, MN or MS. They have great lenses and are the fastest loading cameras I've ever had. A Scoopic MS usually goes for about $600. Built-in meter works great for most uses.

[Brian Drysdale]

CP-16R is great if you have time to setup a shot and is a much more professional camera.

 

I'm not sure how you need more time to set up a shot with a CP 16R, they were news cameras and are quick to use. The slowest part is having to thread the camera (this does need practise to get up to speed), but it does take 400ft loads, so you need to do it less often. However, I suspect at the price mentioned there may not be a lens included.

[Phil Thompson]

There is a CP-16R on ebay right now for buy it now $575. The only thing that is wrong with it is that the trigger switch doesnt work and it runs constantly when the button on the back is turned on. So you basically use the rear switch as the trigger. Its a great deal and if you dont buy it, I will next week.

 

CP-16R has 24fps crystal sync motor, 2 400' magazines, and an interchangable lens setup. Doesnt get any better than that for this price range.

 

if u do you're a fool. If that switch doesn;t work then the hybrid board id burnt out. YOu cant replace that,

[Matthew W. Phillips]

Thanks for the pointer, I guess. But I would appreciate it if you wouldn't insult me and call me a fool. Especially since your grammar is suspect and you don't seem like the brightest bulb in the shed yourself. :lol:

[Rick Cook]

Thanks guys,

 

The CP 16 was another one I was looking at, but it was usually in the range of $1500. I'll have to ask someone I know his opinion on fixing it. Do you guys think the trigger is something that ould be fixed?

 

I have seen the Scoopics, and I don't know much about them.

Something with magazines would be best, and I have no issues with load times, I plan on shooting Short Features for a friend with it.

 

I'm searching the NYC craigslist, and will report if I find anything interesting for your guys opinions.

[Will Montgomery]

Something with magazines would be best, and I have no issues with load times, I plan on shooting Short Features for a friend with it.

If you're shooting a feature then I'd save a little more and look out for an Super 16 Aaton LTR or Arri SR. They are coming down quickly and are more available on eBay then I've ever seen them. Maybe find one with a PL mount and you can rent the best PL lenses reasonably.

 

Many sub-$1000 cameras will have subtle issues due to a lack of quality that don't always show up but can at really bad times. If you are considering shooting a feature then an Aaton or Arri would be a great investment.

 

Scoopic MS can add a 400' magazine with a special adapter but if you're going that route I'd suggest the Aaton or Arri. Scoopics really shine as run-n-gun cameras, not quite a german precision instrument like an Arri SR.

 

You can see some issues here on a Scoopic that had recently been serviced and I've seen this type of pulsing on three different Scoopics.

[Rick Cook]

Thanks for the info Will!

 

I have since borrowed an Arri 16bl from a friend of mine for the feature project. It hasn't been used in years, so we had a battery recelled, and I shot a few 100' rolls through it to do various tests. Hopefully it will come back clean.

 

It's a shame I can't modify the BL for super 16, as it's not mine, and I hear it is a pain in the ass. So I'm considering buying a scoopic, or something in that realm so I can mess around with it in the future. For now, I'll put the money towards the Film stock.

 

thanks again!

 

- Rick

[Dimitar Kutmanov]

I would recommend you to stay alert for decent Kinor 16 CX2/3 M packages. Keep checking Ebay, most of the Kinors that you will find are quite battered and rusty with no power supply. However, I got mine with two zoom lenses + a wide-ange adaptor and 2x100ft;2x400ft magazines, battery and cables...and upgraded motor...for $800. The camera is a much more professional alternative to the K3s and the Scoopics...It has a registration claw and registration pin transport mechanism and they say it is mechanically almost identical to the Arri 16 SR...Which means super stable image. Believe me the difference of the image stability between the Kinor and a Bolex or Scoopic is significant. Furthermore it is built like an AK 47. The biggest problem is to find a full kit in decent condition. Good luck ;)

[Gary Lemson]

...So I'm considering buying a scoopic...

- Rick

 

I purchased a refurbed Scoopic earlier this year, and I'm very happy with it. As you probably know, the Scoopic has limited capabilities, but does allow for manual control, and has 72mm threads.

[Gregg MacPherson]

Hey There!

 

I am doing some research, and would appreciate any input you guys have.

 

I sold some old gear I had been sitting on for a while, and was able to pick up around $800 for it all. So I was thinking of putting it towards a nice affordable 16mm camera.

I've considered the k3. But I feel like I could do better then that within the range of $500-700. Range. Is there a decent camera (pref. One that has a motor) that anyone could point me towards?

 

I've watched a couple Kinor's on ebay, but all are mostly "untested".

 

If you're on a budget Eclair ACL's are great cameras. A well maintained ACL is quiet. They are light if you are hand holding a lot. With 200' mags they are really small. They have clip on mags. One feature of them that is really good is the mount adaptor system. You can change the mount adaptor and use any of the common lenses. If you have a PL adaptor you can rent lenses. There are standard 16 ACL's coming up on eBay for around $1000. Some of those will be fine. Some will need a check over and lube.

 

Cheers

Gregg

[Jason Hinkle RIP]

But I feel like I could do better then that within the range of $500-700. Range. Is there a decent camera (pref. One that has a motor) that anyone could point me towards?

 

For that price range I second the ACL. They are good cameras for Super-16 or Ultra-16 conversion as well.

[Matthew W. Phillips]

I love this forum but sometimes people just dont listen. The poster said in the range of 500-700. That is what it means. It doesnt mean $1000 or $900 plus glass or any of that. You can always "step up" to something better by inching the price up but we should assume that 500-700 is what the poster is looking for. In that range, I cant imagine you can even consider any working camera package in 16mm outside of K3, Bolex, CP16, or occasionally the Beaulieu R16 on ebay.

[Will Montgomery]

I cant imagine you can even consider any working camera package in 16mm outside of K3, Bolex, CP16, or occasionally the Beaulieu R16 on ebay.

And a Scoopic MS.

[Ian Cooper]

I love this forum but sometimes people just dont listen. The poster said in the range of 500-700. That is what it means. It doesnt mean $1000 or $900 plus glass or any of that. You can always "step up" to something better by inching the price up but we should assume that 500-700 is what the poster is looking for. In that range, I cant imagine you can even consider any working camera package in 16mm outside of K3, Bolex, CP16, or occasionally the Beaulieu R16 on ebay.

 

I picked up my Eclair NPR for about £350 from ebay a couple of years ago... which is around $560. I've seen ACL's go unsold with starting bids not much more. I struck lucky with mine as it's clearly led a pretty sheltered life with hardly any scuffs and wear, and after taking it to Les Bosher for a bit of TLC he commented on how good it is as well.

 

You can pick up good deals, I think my R16 was around the £200 region when I got that in 2008. I can't imagine prices have gone up.

[Gregg MacPherson]

I love this forum but sometimes people just dont listen. The poster said in the range of 500-700. That is what it means. It doesnt mean $1000 or $900 plus glass or any of that. You can always "step up" to something better by inching the price up but we should assume that 500-700 is what the poster is looking for. In that range, I cant imagine you can even consider any working camera package in 16mm outside of K3, Bolex, CP16, or occasionally the Beaulieu R16 on ebay.

 

In defence of my suggesting an ACL, there are some bargains out there. Check this, which sold a couple of days ago. If the seller had been more patient the price would have been higher (maybe twice as much).

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=200627376480&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT

 

But yes, $100 out of his budget range, and if it needs a lube or any service at all the costs jump. Given that the poster was testing a 16BL and talking about S16 mods for that I felt compelled to pont out ACL's. NPR are also cheap, but I don't know those cameras.

 

Cheers

Gregg.

[Matthew W. Phillips]

That Eclair was close to $200 out of his top price range when shipping is added. I know it is "possible" to obtain an Eclair within that price range but eBay is usually a good indicator of what the "market" will pay for things, at least when people start at a low bidding price, and it is not very common at all to find an Eclair complete kit (mags, lens, body, charger, battery) for $700 or less. In fact, I have never personally seen it.

[Gregg MacPherson]

That Eclair was close to $200 out of his top price range when shipping is added. I know it is "possible" to obtain an Eclair within that price range but eBay is usually a good indicator of what the "market" will pay for things, at least when people start at a low bidding price, and it is not very common at all to find an Eclair complete kit (mags, lens, body, charger, battery) for $700 or less. In fact, I have never personally seen it.

 

Mathew,

One could argue about all this. Shipping costs will apply to any cammera. But I think arguing about whether the suggested cameras fit the price range is not that interesting. My thought, although we don't know anything about the projects, was that shooting features on 16mm with a $700 budget to buy a camera was unrealistic.

 

Rick,

In the features you want to make is there much hand heldd camera? Find someone in your area with an ACL, or Aaton and see if they will let you have a look. Maybe they will help.

 

Cheers

Gregg

[Matthew W. Phillips]

I am not trying to argue. I just know that if I have a budget to stick to when making a film, and I have to buy a camera out of that budget, the shipping is real money. The fact that all cameras cost shipping is irrelevant. And I have long been a fan of the CP16 camera package because it is by far the best deal for a 16mm production package. Save for some Auricons, there is nothing else even remotely close to the value and versatility you get for the money. But people like to pimp other cameras because it is the accepted thing to do. I dont know why everyone makes such a big deal about the Arri S, for instance. Its an overpriced and loud beast which has a ridiculous setup for trying to do sync sound and 400' mags with. It was never intended for all that but some people get hung up on the name or the fact that RR did Mariachi with it.

 

The Eclair is a good package but it doesnt have any advantages that I know of over the CP16. It doesnt have a registration pin either so no advantage there. Some say they are quieter but that is debatable.

[Ian Cooper]

...The Eclair is a good package but it doesnt have any advantages that I know of over the CP16. It doesnt have a registration pin either so no advantage there. Some say they are quieter but that is debatable.

 

The Eclair NPR has a registration pin, along with a spring loaded side guide rail.

 

Not sure about the ACL, got a feeling that model might not have a reg. pin. Having said that, I suspect much will depend on an individual camera's condiditon. A good condition ACL or CP16 without a pin could possibly provide better registration than a worn NPR or Arri SR with a registration pin.

 

As already stated, I picked up a complete NPR package with magazine, lens, battery & charger for a little over the bottom end of your budget. Granted I haven't seen similar cameras going quite that cheap since, but there have been both NPRs and ACL packages advertised within your budget.

 

The biggest factor would probably be your timescale to sit and wait for a CP16 or Eclair package to show up at the 'right price'.

Edited July 19, 2011 by Ian Cooper

[Will Montgomery]

I am not trying to argue. I just know that if I have a budget to stick to when making a film, and I have to buy a camera out of that budget, the shipping is real money.

Good point on budget.

 

But many of us have probably bought cameras in that range and wished we'd been able to spend just a few hundred more for a step up.

 

I'm sitting on about (6) 16mm cameras in that price range, all have their strengths, but none of them would be what I'd consider "feature worthy." With camera prices dropping like rocks now, I'm looking forward to picking up something I can use in the commercial space and stop renting for everything I do professionally.

 

This may be worthy of another post all together, but I find curious the disconnect from reality I've seen alot of camera brokers have. With Super 16 Arri SR III's and even Aaton XTR's going for less then $6000, it's a new world. So many brokers still think an SR III should sell for $25,000. I also wish rental prices would reflect this massive drop in ownership costs as well.

[Robert Ditto]

Hey, I have three Bolexes and I wouldn't shoot with anything else. I have shoot Arriflex 16 and 35, but I personally love my Bolex Cameras, and my ENTIRE investment of three cameras, two 400ft mags, take up motor, (9) tamron SP lenses, (3) konishiroku hexanon lenses, the adapters for both, flight cases, and VARIO power zoom lens was right at $800. And I don't have a single issue with image stability.

 

Sincerely, Respectfully,

Robert M. Ditto

[Robert Ditto]

Sorry, I have *shot* Arriflex.

[Dom Jaeger]

I also wish rental prices would reflect this massive drop in ownership costs as well.

 

I'm pretty sure you could get better deals these days on 16mm rentals, but it's worth remembering that a large part of the cost to rental houses is regular upkeep, repair, storage and employing knowledgeable staff (none of which are any cheaper just because the gear is less valuable on the second hand market). Aside from a large choice of equipment, the benefit of renting is that you know the gear is serviced, checked and working, you have technical assistance, and back-up if something goes wrong. So you're paying for much more than just the initial purchase cost.

 

Hey, I have three Bolexes and I wouldn't shoot with anything else.

 

I think in the price range of the original post I'd agree with Robert that a good Bolex kit is probably the best option. Mainly due to serviceability and reliability. A serviced Bolex with say Switar primes can produce exceptionally good, stable images. They're cheap to service, can be fairly easily converted to Super, and you can take them up Everest or into jungles and they'll still work. A good kit can be had for well under a grand.

 

By comparison, finding parts or service people for Eclairs, CP-16s, Scoopics etc is a much tougher prospect, and generally these cameras are not as durable and more likely to need a service. (You can always get lucky, of course.)

 

If you want to move up to purchasing a synch-sound camera, I think it's worth jumping up the cost scale to an Arri SR2 or 3 or an Aaton, especially now that they're getting cheaper.