planing the shooting day

[Ram Shani]

hi

 

i just read david "BEE" post not his 20 setups day rule.

 

that's 1/2 hour per setup which i think is fast.

 

how you calculate setup time on shooting day?

 

ram

[Dan Salzmann]

This is generally determined with the AD and production manager in advance.

There is no hard and fast rule concerning the number of setups a day that are possible.

This depends on (among other things):

The technical demands of each setup

The size and technical abilities of the crew

How much time the director needs to "get it"

Physical distance between setups

ORGANIZED PREPERATION EQUALS INCREASED EFFICIENCY

[Laurent Andrieux]

hi

 

i just read david "BEE" post not his 20 setups day rule.

 

that's 1/2 hour per setup which i think is fast.

 

how you calculate setup time on shooting day?

 

ram

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

can you give a link to that post

 

Usually, in the "average" cases, the AD manages a half hour time for the camera prep, but I think an hour is more comfortable. that's for the first meeting of the day. When we change location, I think it depends on many factors, as Dan said. Is the next location prelighted? etc... I would say it is beetween half an hour and an hour...

Edited February 27, 2005 by laurent.a

[David Mullen ASC]

A lot of this is experience knowing how complex the shooting will be and what your crew can handle. I'd say that you make a guess on the first day of shooting as to how many shots you can accomplish per day and you'll quickly find out how many you can ACTUALLY shoot per day.

 

As Laurent says, if your location requires a huge lighting set-up that can take two or three hours, I'd ask for a pre-light day with a rigging crew or at least a pre-call on the grip & electric crew.

[GeorgeSelinsky]

Was it Eisenhower who said "Plans are useless, but planning is everything"?

<_<

 

- G.

[Ram Shani]

can you give a link to that post

 

Usually, in the "average" cases, the AD manages a half hour time for the camera prep, but I think an hour is more comfortable. that's for the first meeting of the day. When we change location, I think it depends on many factors, as Dan said. Is the next location prelighted? etc... I would say it is beetween half an hour and an hour...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

hi

 

it's in 35mm forum . "akeelah and the bee" week one

 

ram

Edited February 28, 2005 by ramdop

[Rob Belics]

Was it Eisenhower who said "Plans are useless, but planning is everything"?

<_<

 

- G.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No...that was me...just last week.

[DavidSloan]

Stuff like that just comes with experience. When I first started shooting I had no idea how long a dolly shot would take, or a jib shot, a crane, etc...now I can pretty much come within 10 minutes of my estimations based on knowing my crew, and my past experience.

[J. Lamar King IMPOSTOR]

It really sucks when the AD is constantly asking you how much longer the setup will take. I really hate to even give an answer but I know from experience about what it'll take and I add 10 minutes.

[Ram Shani]

hi

 

thanks for all the answers.

 

but the ad and the dp need the director to work fast to???

 

blocking rehersing and shooting in 1/2 hour per shot???

 

do you dp and directors have time to think, try different camera angels during the

 

shooting or you go with what you know and safe

 

ram

[Laurent Andrieux]

I understand now that what was ment by setup is a shot I guess.

 

You see, the half an hour per shot is an average. If you have a dolly on tracks, it takes longer time than on dance floor or on sticks...

 

The thing is, it's more efficient to know how many different sets are done in the day, or how many sequences.

 

If you go on a set for shooting a 6 or seven shots sequence, then it might take let's say an hour to an hour and half to set the whole sequence up, and then all the shots being done in the continuity, on the same set, in the same light... don't take necessarly half an hour each. it depends on many factors but that half an hour per shot is an average.

 

Don't forget that for long sequence shot (think of Hitchcok the rope) it may be one shot per day or less.

 

It also is more efficient to consider how minutes of script is being done per day

[Laurent Andrieux]

Another point : usually the director knows where to put the camera for each shot. If he wants to discuss it with the operator, he does but they try to determine the different camera places quite fast. THen, we shoot in the determined order (that may change) but we don't really "try" a place or another. Sometimes there are shots that may not be edited afterwards, but when we shoot, each shot is a shot and supposingly to be edited. The director is supposed to have an idea of the edited result in his head and so does the cinematographer. We don't do much shots "for a try", but in advert or very high budget films. Another point is that the action may be shot from different angles but usually there is a covering, not really 2 different versions of the same action but rarely. Some directors like to have different pov of an action as to have the choice when they edit but it's not often like trying different pov of the same action "for a try", it usually is covering the action in different shots, each of them being possibly edited - even if it's not the case at last - (don't know if I am so clear, damn english language !)

[Riku Naskali]

I'd love to shoot 20 setups per day. In fact, I don't know why I don't have enough time. I'm shooting stuff nobody gets paid. So there really isn't running expenses. On the other hand I've started to demand more shooting days lately.

 

Wouldn't want to do 70 setups per day anymore. Got about 50 in 11 hours, I think. On some shots I had about two minutes to light the shot, so electrician ran me a kino and we were good to go. It's a horrible thing to know you can make the shot look a lot better but there just isn't time to do it.

 

And yes, my setups aren't propably too comparable to someone like David's, where everything is so much bigger in scale.

[GeorgeSelinsky]

Roger Corman wrote that he believes the norm for one of his shoots is 40 setups. Many of his films were shot on 10 day schedules. Try that for pressure.

 

- G.

[Rob Belics]

What do you do if you end the planned day early? Ever done that?

[David Mullen ASC]

Like closet space, the work expands to fill the void.

 

Another thing to remember is not set-up time but shooting time. It may only take ten minutes to set-up a new shot, but you may be shooting that set-up for a half-hour sometimes, take after take.

 

I've been very lucky having a second camera and crew on this current feature, not just for running two cameras at once, but because I can set-up one camera while shooting with another, especially if one of the camera has to go on a steadicam or on a crane. My shot lists will indicate things like: this is B-camera while A-camera is set-up for Steadicam, next shot is A-camera on Steadicam, then next shot is on B-camera while they take A-camera off of Steadicam, next shot is both A and B cameras, etc.

[DavidSloan]

Roger Corman wrote that he believes the norm for one of his shoots is 40 setups. Many of his films were shot on 10 day schedules. Try that for pressure.

 

- G.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I respect the guy, but his films look like they were shot in 10 days with 40 setups per day.

[Ram Shani]

Like closet space, the work expands to fill the void.

 

Another thing to remember is not set-up time but shooting time. It may only take ten minutes to set-up a new shot, but you may be shooting that set-up for a half-hour sometimes, take after take.

 

I've been very lucky having a second camera and crew on this current feature, not just for running two cameras at once, but because I can set-up one camera while shooting with another, especially if one of the camera has to go on a steadicam or on a crane. My shot lists will indicate things like: this is B-camera while A-camera is set-up for Steadicam, next shot is A-camera on Steadicam, then next shot is on B-camera while they take A-camera off of Steadicam, next shot is both A and B cameras, etc.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[Ram Shani]

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

hi

 

its sound like a lot of the directors don't have clear vision and will built the film in the editing room

 

except maby the master's (scorsese, gus van sent , david lynch spillberg .to name a few.)

 

maybe its the producer voice in there heads

 

i think its also commen in america then europe.

 

i heard that sametimes directors contract is only until first roughcut and then

 

the producer can take over the film

 

ram

[Bob Hayes]

My average in 200 hours of dramatic television and 30 features is 32 set-ups a day for one camera shows. 12.5 hours per day. I find this is a good and realistic number. It doesn?t seem to matter what the schedules are. If I am shooting less then 32 set-ups a day I find we are often under covering the film. Any more then 32 set ups and I am usually over covering and it shows up in over time. The set-up count doesn?t really change in respect to the schedule. If I shoot a film in 12 days or 40 days they seem to average 32 set-ups a day. On a forty day schedule it just means more coverage on each scene and more shots that are experiments or gravy that don?t make it into the film. On a shorter schedule it means more oners. The most I ever did with one camera was 90 set-ups in 12 hours. I went into that show thinking the more set-ups I could deliver the better I was doing. After that experience I came to the conclusion that shooting too many set-ups became to cutty and over burdened the production. Now I try to tell the story with as few shots as I can. Coverage is like golf you want to get it into the hole with as few high quality shots as you can. You?d never see a golfer saying how proud he was that he took 90 shots to hole a par 5.

Edited March 2, 2005 by bob1dp

[DavidSloan]

Coverage is like golf, you want to get it into the hole with as few high quality shots as you can.

 

This is my new motto.

[Josh Bass]

Really? I read somewhere (sorry, no idea where) about a director or producer (this sounds like I really know what I'm talking about, huh?) saying how they hated the attitude of "all we need for this scene is a master and two closeups", regarding covering a scene with two people talking. You're saying that approach is just fine? Obvious it's a case by case basis, but I watch a show like Law and Order SVU, and the cover the crap out of the courtroom stuff. . .OTS's, CUs, Wides, often of the same subject. What're the rules? Are there any?

[Phil Rhodes]

Hi,

 

Saturday (the HD promo shoot) was probably about thirty, including Steadicam (low and high mode), track and dolly, sticks, handheld, full lighting package. About eleven hours. A good crew, possibly the best crew I've ever worked with, particularly the 1st AD who, radiating professionalism, politely and efficiently clawed back a ninety-minute morning fall-behind during the course of the afternoon and wrapped us only 45 minutes late. Doing all these crappy freebies with New York Film Academy beginners is going to become really, really depressing if I keep getting to work with people like this...

 

Perhaps it's no great surprise that he was an American with extensive experience in LA.

 

I find that general filmmaking is a great example of work expanding to fill the time allotted, and to some extent compressing into it as well. Expectation has a lot to do with it, if only because you know how long you can spend farting about with each setup.

 

> Coverage is like golf, you want to get it into the hole with as few high quality shots as you can.

 

I like that.

 

> 12.5 hours/day

 

I don't like that. I think asking people to work more than 12 hours/day is fairly unpleasant.

 

Phil

[Riku Naskali]

By the way, is it common that the director says where the camera will be?

[David Mullen ASC]

My average in 200 hours of dramatic television and 30 features is 32 set-ups a day for one camera shows.  12.5 hours per day.  I find this is a good and realistic number.  It doesn?t seem to matter what the schedules are.  If I am shooting less then 32 set-ups a day I find we are often under covering the film. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Sure, I'm averaging about that too -- but there's a difference between showing up with a shot list with 32 set-ups and actually shooting 32 set-ups.

 

You always add a set-up here and there during the day -- you break-up a shot, you reposition and resize, you add an insert or an extra close-up, etc. which is why I'd rather have a 20 shot list knowing that it will end up more like 30. If we showed up with 30 on a list, we'd be trying to get 40...