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Film vs Digital. Impact on Art, Culture, Experience.


Gregg MacPherson

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Jesus, I appreciate your honesty on the matter. Those who disagree with the difference in discipline have either A) worked with old school vets who have the old ways ingrained in them or B ) I question if theyve ever shot on film. I honestly have not seen the same disciline on a digital shoot ever. Not even once. Its too easy as humans to lax when you know you can.

 

Straight up Matthew if I could I would only work in projects shot on film. Even for a 1/3 of my rate. I'm just bored to death already. I'm so committed to working back on film that I'm looking everywhere to jump back on any indie film brave enough to shoot in 16mm, Super 16mm or 35mm.

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That's awesome to hear that you arent bedazzled by all the latest and greatest digital gadgets just because they are new. It is funny to me that we live in perhaps the only time in history where people celebrate going backwards on quality. Would I ride a horse because its cheaper and doesnt require gas? No thanks. Ill stick to the expense of my car, thank you.

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Just make stuff, no one cares about the format......

 

 

Post -1 (negative 1)

 

Hey Marcus,

I had your post flagged to respond to. Responses are infrequent on the core value of the idea I posted so I might as well have some fun exploring the more expressed values on offer (signal to Chris Millar. Meaning of the word value may vary). I'm going to pretend that you actually read what I wrote on page 1. Marcus, don't take any of this personally.

 

No one cares about the format? Yes! Does this validate anything? No. If we all end up eating GE food because no one gave a stuff either way, would this change the practical dangers posed by GE? No! In exactly the same way, whatever danger is posed to the style of functioning of human seeing, and whatever danger is posed to art and the popular arts (duh, cinema), by the march of digital technology, whether we notice this danger has nothing to do with the damage it may do. Unless we resist it. Please just pause and consider that before attacking the keyboard.

 

Professionals working in the mainstream, legitimate film industry must adapt. They have a vested interest in adapting. There will be some who will adapt but are fully aware of what we have lost or are about to loose.. There are others (naive twats IMHO) who will say we have lost nothing. We could tiptoe around this in politic fashion, but then one of these twats boldly expresses, I'm guessing, expressing it for a huge segment of the industry, that these differences between film vs digital are irrelevant.

 

I wrote somewhere before, an imagined future where our life partners have all been mandatorily replaced by hybrid cyborgs, because, if you itemize all the required functions, they performed better than an equivalent human spouse. The style of human awareness today is rapidly evolving to a condition where this would be possible and acceptable, or accepted. To happen it requires a serious depletion of our ability to "see" beneath the obvious, our ability to use a more universal common sense. Like now, with the march of digital and the apparent demise of film, there would be small islands of dissent. And there would be some who would say, go ahead, just enjoy, bonk, whatever, no-one cares whether it's a human or a cyborg.

 

So, using some really basic, crude humor that I am sure an Australian will get....are you (meaning would you be), a rubber doll rooter or not? (rubber doll = cyborg).

 

Nothing personal whatsoever, just the business of tying to vitalize ideas that seem really important. And the humor. Well, we may loose film, but if we loose our sense of humor then what are we? (.......more jokes about the cyborgs)

 

 

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And the fact about the 200 years thing, well how much art has really lasted from 200 years ago?

 

Again the editing function disappers too fast for me.

Marcus, you may think me too critical or too much of a piss taker already, but I meant to add.......

 

PS: There is plenty of art that is over 200 years old. Get out more, look around at a museum or on the internet.

 

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.....people celebrate going backwards on quality. Would I ride a horse because its cheaper and doesnt require gas? No thanks. Ill stick to the expense of my car, thank you.

 

Matthew,

Are these metaphors in your illustration, ass bacwards, back to front. To me a horse seems a far more sophisticated thing than a motor car. In terms of the palpable experience enjoyed with it. I's alive, organic in vastly many more ways that a motor car can be. Due to the motor car, humanity all but lost the horse. So the horse should represent film. No?

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I think the opposite. I think the car is film and digital is like replacing a car with something less powerful because its cheaper. I equate gas in a car with film people pay for. People do not wish to pay for film because there is a chain that extends beyond what they can control and whats quick. Sure, the horse must be fed but you can do that at home. Gas, you have to go get the car filled up at the station. Gas has a workflow of people who have careers in getting it prepped for you so it helps the economy. A horse...well..once you buy the horse, you alone can maintain it (unless you count an occassional vet visit.)

 

Perhaps it was a silly metaphor and I can see how you can take it opposite depending on your perspective but I was referring to power in my analogy. Film is surely more powerful than digital in the sense of the emotions it evokes.

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I think the opposite. I think the car is film and digital is like replacing a car with something less powerful because its cheaper....

I can see how you can take it opposite depending on your perspective but I was referring to power in my analogy. Film is surely more powerful than digital in the sense of the emotions it evokes.

 

I'm gradually getting a sense of your unique perspective. Power of car (vs horse)......power of film (vs digital) to evoke emotion......power of car (vs horse) to evoke emotion.

 

So a car evoking a more potent emotional responses than a horse? Perhaps we have already arived at that dystopian future I suggested on the Fvs D thread. A cyborg spouse will evoke a greater emotional response than a human one.

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Work us good,

Money can give us the freedom to read, think, write, do. (why didn't I think of that).

By having a "fist fight off K'rd " do you mean like inviting those 48hour weaners. If so, no thanks. Otherwise yea, ping me when in Auckland and we could meet up. Maybe a beer or come over and chat. viz(at)xtra.co.nz.

 

Fist fight on K'rd....(Bevis and Buthead noises)....you (expletive) provocateur. Jus sayun.

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With all due respect Gregg, it was just a metaphor. I am starting to feel as though I could point my fingers toward the heavens and you would be turned off off my analogy because I had dirt on my finger.

 

The point wasnt really car vs horse. It was that people demand cheap, quick, and easy. I now realize that car vs horse is a bad idea (as is any metaphor) because some people are going to disagree with your metaphor. Perhaps no one can agree on anything.

 

Would it be a better comparison to say film is like a home cooked meal vs digital which is like fast food?

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.... it was just a metaphor. I am starting to feel as though I could point my fingers toward the heavens and you would be turned off off my analogy because I had dirt on my finger......

 

Good god man, lighten up. Are you not finding any of this funny? I apologize if I am too quick onto things that should just be ignored. But the horse vs car comparison....metaphors, seeming ass backwards, was a really interesting thing.

 

Pointing finger to the heavans. The horse vs car one was more like pointing finger in the wrong direction, at least by what I guessed would be a common or common sense response. Although I made fun, it was very intriguing. Please take that as a complement.

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Digital is like preparing a Thanksgiving meal by cooking a ready-made tofu turkey and then adding all kinds of spices and seasoning to it to get it to taste like a real turkey; with the right recipe and the right oven and enough time to experiment with different spices, lots of people can't even taste the difference between that and the real turkey.

 

Film would be driving to the store and buying an actual turkey, which when cooked properly, will taste more turkey-like than any imitation. But it isn't as easy to control; every turkey is different after all, and every turkey comes out of the oven a little differently, and when the turkey is distributed, everybody gets variable pieces that are not all exactly the same. But it all tastes like turkey. How good does it taste? It depends upon the skill of the cook.

 

The most highly-skilled cook can work with both the tofu turkey and the real turkey, but the real turkey will yield the most turkey-like results by virtue of the medium.

Edited by Joseph Konrad
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Gregg, I would like to lighten up but your thread has descended into self parody. Ironically enough, that is the thing I read on that 48 hour contest that you said in the thread bothered you so much.

 

This thread had a lot of potential. Unfortunately, the thread starter had to engage in ridiculously off topic and pseudo-philosophical rants about things that I doubt anyone (possibly including himself) knew what he was talking about. Good day Gregg and good luck with your thread.

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Gregg, I would like to lighten up but your thread has descended into self parody....

This thread had a lot of potential. Unfortunately, the thread starter had to engage in ridiculously off topic and pseudo-philosophical rants....

 

Matthew,

Even when I'm finding some interesting, unique creative value in your post, trying to be genuinely complimentary, and apologetic for any offence I might have unintionally caused......you take offence? You take offence very easily.

 

Self parody? Just plain silly.

 

Diversions from topic?

Well I had a couple of humorous exchanges with Chris Millar, trying to keep that part very short, and moving straight back to the core of my idea.. The only clear diversion from the original intention was a response to Marcus Joseph. The reason for responding to him was that he probably represented a huge segment of the film industry that were completely incognizant of my idea and uninterested. A unique opportunity. Some local humor required there. For now I side stepped the references to photons or quantum physics.

 

Pseudo-philosophical rants?

Well, no. Apart from some slight difficulty finding the right language to intuitively traverse between common objective observation, non conscious reception of visual information and subtle states of conscious awareness, I can't find anything wrong. How else can we explore more deeply the value or not of these various media to human beings? Meaning also the risk. Lets say that last question was not rhetorical. Let's call it a direct challenge.

 

Are the imagined dystopian futures what you are referring to? We have a process of rapid change that we are normalized to and I think the rate of change is increasing. And sudden surges of seemingly specialized change are possible beyond that. The idea of a hybrid cyborg as a life partner is I hope just an imaginative fantasy. I hope my grandchildren do not live to see it happen. Does modern technology look capable of evolving at that speed? Probably. Do modern humans seem able to evolve socially to a point where they would want or accept it. I'm thinking yes.

 

We of this time may disapprove of that future. The idea is an ugly shock. A useful analogy. That's the way it was used.

 

Whatever else is wrong?

No idea at all.

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I must say Gregg, maybe I am just stupid, but I can't make heads or tails out of many of your posts in this thread either. I will take your word for it that this is not pseudo-intellectualism, but I think I will have to bow out of the discussion as well. It is getting too deep for me;)

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I must say Gregg, maybe I am just stupid, but I can't make heads or tails out of many of your posts in this thread either. I will take your word for it that this is not pseudo-intellectualism, but I think I will have to bow out of the discussion as well. It is getting too deep for me;)

 

If it's a difficult read I'm genuinely appologetic. I have been working really hard to try and avoid that. I think the concepts are not really hard, it just may need skill (with words) to triger recognition of them.

 

You could try asking a question.

 

 

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Gregg,

 

We'll puck (heh heh) this up at a later date - I do have more to say.

 

Matthew from my fuzzy memories of him has always been like this (but yeh, it is possible I could have him confused with Vincent Sweeney - not sure if they'll take that as a compliment or insult ;) )

Edited by Chris Millar
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lol @ Chris.

 

And what exactly is "like this?" I do recall you too but you seemed to be one of those who took a high road but no doubt had much more to say mentally about matters. Maybe I should be glad this was the case? Perhaps not.

 

I know that, no matter how coarse I am and have been, I cant possibly be worse than Keith. That makes me feel a bit better. (I think Richard was harsh back in the day before "the mellowing" which seemed to happen around the time Dark Reprieve released, if I recall)

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Gregg,

We'll puck (heh heh) this up at a later date - I do have more to say.......

 

Is that a puck table joke? Do you think we can model the human interactions here with basic mechanics. Some complex collisions lately. A minor collision and one puck whizzed off at high speed. Implication, assuming conservation of momentum.... ? Now did that puck bounce back or is there some serious gravitas around here. My laugh batteries are waining

 

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I will shoot film as long as there is one working camera with one available film stock with one available lab to process it and one place to scan it. Until there is none of that, i WILL shoot film. Thats all i know to say on the matter.

 

(signaling a short, off topic humorous post)

 

Come the dystopian future, when the film survivalists are hiding literally underground in fear of their lives, real men will not use scanners! Just saying that word would make you look like a confused soul who didn't know which way their schtick was pointed. In that illegal underground society there were only human women, no cyborgs allowed.

 

Never a truer word spoken in jest.

The schtick=dick joke was funnier when you used it.

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It was a typo for 'pick'. But I left it there as it's how kiwis sound to the rest of the world anyway.

 

Just so we're clear about my puck table narrative, that puck that whizzed of at high speed was not you. I was making a joke about someone else. A puck that whizzed off at high speed could be considered a light weight and so on.

 

Are you still working in the mechatronics field? Does that mean designing, building or driving dinosaurs? The drivers in their little vehicles are a really cool but wierd thing, until you sort of flick a switch in your head and they disappear.

 

If you're busy we can chat about that another time.

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Done some building on and off at the shops and onsite. Wee bit too tall to drive. Design is where I want to be hence the masters in mechatronics which is a commitment that precludes any more work! (on King Kong live, looks *very* interesting from a technical perspective).

Ah well, so all I've got is some (very) embellished battle stories and for now it's just vanilla automation ;)

Edited by Chris Millar
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