Cheapest place in U.K for renting equipment

Keith Mottram · April 7, 2005

There is no way you should pay that kind of money for a short- shorts are in general non profit based and rental houses know this. The problem you are in is that you are not in a position to offer them anything in return, ie no future fully paid projects. There is no way I'd pay that kind of money for a start 10% is a piss take, no one pays rate for anything and no one gets less than 10% discount on anything. I dont envy you because from the outside you will get nothing but shut doors and once inside the doors start opening. My producer's talking to hire facilities at the moment and he's discussing how much we can get for free not how much of a discount you can get (Panavision are alot more friendly than Arri currently). This is due to the fact that I and my crew already have a track record and therefor a business relationship is desirable. I would think very hard about spending that much money as a student. However good it looks it may not have the qualities you need and the experience could be gained on cheaper equipment. Most importantly find yourself a good producer, they will be in a better position to negotiate. Finally tell Optex to fu** off. There are plenty of other options and never ask for stuff individually, work out what you want and what you want to pay and shop for a deal for the lot. Good Luck.

Keith

April 7, 2005

Gah! It looked nice because it was composed, lit and designed carefully, which is exactly what I'm talking about. Do the same on an SDX-900 or a DVX-100 and it will still look nice.

That's the thing, it was a no budget short, he managed to get the camera and most of the stuff for free. And many of the shots were outdoors, in un-controllable light. I seriously thought it was shot on film until he told me HD. Well, it looked good enough for me, and I'd shoot a film with that camera anyday.

You can. Do so.

Well if you can name one rental house that does the SDX-900, then seriously be my guest, but I honestly can't find anywhere that rents it out. There has got to be one place that does it, but a google search isn't showing up much.

So why the hell are you talking about HD? What's the point? In point of fact, because Sony like to keep a brand continuity going through their range, a DVW-790 digital betacam has extremely similar colour rendering to an HWD-F750.

Well, I need progressive, and would like 4:2:2 colour, not many cameras offer that, apart from the SDX-900 and the HD range. (I haven't seen any other cameras that do it, I'm not saying they are the only ones)

Oh, it will. And I mean no side by that, it's just grimly inevitable. You will kick yourself for spending all that cash on it.

I'm honestly not just ignoring what you are saying, after all you are the experienced one here, but, how will come out rubbish? I mean, I know already in my mind what camera angles to shoot from for every scene, what filters to use and what look I want, I just honestly don't see how how it will come out rubbish. Perhaps that's down to my in-experience or something I don't know, but, I'm thinking it will go well.

I would just take 1 Zoom Lens!

I would like to, it would cut down on cost, but I really do need one wide-angle, and a normal/tele-photo.

I think it all depends on how good you are at blagging kit - we've managed to get HD kit for much less than the list price. If the a rental house is having a quiet period then they will always consider doing you some stuff for cheaper. If you manage to build up a relationship with a single rental house and always go back, then things get much cheaper in the long run because you are a regular customer.

There is no way you should pay that kind of money for a short- shorts are in general non profit based and rental houses know this. The problem you are in is that you are not in a position to offer them anything in return, ie no future fully paid projects. There is no way I'd pay that kind of money for a start 10% is a piss take, no one pays rate for anything and no one gets less than 10% discount on anything. I dont envy you because from the outside you will get nothing but shut doors and once inside the doors start opening. My producer's talking to hire facilities at the moment and he's discussing how much we can get for free not how much of a discount you can get (Panavision are alot more friendly than Arri currently). This is due to the fact that I and my crew already have a track record and therefore a business relationship is desirable. I would think very hard about spending that much money as a student. However good it looks it may not have the qualities you need and the experience could be gained on cheaper equipment. Most importantly find yourself a good producer, they will be in a better position to negotiate. Finally tell Optex to fu** off. There are plenty of other options and never ask for stuff individually, work out what you want and what you want to pay and shop for a deal for the lot. Good Luck.

Yeh, well when it comes to hiring the gear I'll try and get more money off. But, as it stands, the chances are I'll end up shooting with the XL2, so it'l be a lot cheaper.

To be honest I don't think I'd ever go saving up that kind of money and then using on a film anyway, atleast not when it came to it.

Well, thanks for the info guys. (But err, does anyone know what kinds of lenses you use with the Mini35? Be kinda helpful to know, since as that's probably what I'm going to use)

I?ll probably try and get hold of a producer, since as they know the ins and outs or renting equipment e.t.c.

Tnx,

Dan.

Rik Andino · April 7, 2005

Well, thanks for the info guys. (But err, does anyone know what kinds of lenses you use with the Mini35? Be kinda helpful to know, since as that's probably what I'm going to use)
Tnx,

Dan.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'd consider getting a B4 adapter for the XL2 and using Digi-Primes

Or a getting a good SD zoom lens...even an HD zoom lens

Which will be much better than 35mm primes and the adapter...

The XL2 is a very good camera and you can get really good image

Even using the crummy 20x lens it comes with.

If you're only showing it on a DVD--SD DV is fine (too many abrevations there)

For reels what producers mostly look for is the COMPOSITION & LIGHTING

They're also (though not me) looking to see what format you use...

The (silly) idea is that if you've only shot on one format

You might not know how to be a good DP on the other format

As if being a good DP is dependent on what format you shoot on.

{Example someone who shot 16mm might not be good on 35mm

{Someone who's shot DV might not be good on HD (and vice versa)

This is BS but it's how many (especially lowend) producers think...

So If you want to shoot HD you'll need to have some HD stuff in your reel

But it's not completely necessary to prove yourself a competent DP.

A good reel will standout above the format

& if you make a really outstanding images with a DV camera

You'll recieve alotta cred (credit) for making a good image

Outta something so lowend--and everyone will wanna work with you.

It's all about the skill and how you use it

Why can a Navy SEALs kill you with a straw....

It's the skill.

April 8, 2005

I'd consider getting a B4 adapter for the XL2 and using Digi-Primes
Or a getting a good SD zoom lens...even an HD zoom lens

Which will be much better than 35mm primes and the adapter...

The XL2 is a very good camera and you can get really good image

Even using the crummy 20x lens it comes with.

If you're only showing it on a DVD--SD DV is fine (too many abrevations there)

For reels what producers mostly look for is the COMPOSITION & LIGHTING

They're also (though not me) looking to see what format you use...

The (silly) idea is that if you've only shot on one format

You might not know how to be a good DP on the other format

As if being a good DP is dependent on what format you shoot on.

{Example someone who shot 16mm might not be good on 35mm

{Someone who's shot DV might not be good on HD (and vice versa)

This is BS but it's how many (especially lowend) producers think...

So If you want to shoot HD you'll need to have some HD stuff in your reel

But it's not completely necessary to prove yourself a competent DP.

A good reel will standout above the format

& if you make a really outstanding images with a DV camera

You'll recieve alotta cred (credit) for making a good image

Outta something so lowend--and everyone will wanna work with you.

It's all about the skill and how you use it

Why can a Navy SEALs kill you with a straw....

It's the skill.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yeh, makes sense. Probably have to get hold of descent lighting gear (Shouldn't be hard, I'll probably buy a kit actually, working in a camera shop we stock them and of course I get the discount, although it's probably still cheaper to buy online)

B4 mount? Does that reduce the DOF to 35mm equiv or something? Kinda new to me. And does a B4 mount fit the canon XL2?

Tnx, Dan.

Alvin Pingol · April 8, 2005

B4 mount?
<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Standard mount for 2/3"-CCD SD and HD cameras; Digiprimes are B4 mount lenses.

You would need, as was mentioned, an adapter. The one over at ZGC lists for $1400.

Phil Rhodes · April 8, 2005

Hi,

VMI have SDX-900 for £180/day, which I consider to be a steal, although you'd have to check what came with that, whether it's the body only. The big thing there is that you can produce absolutely smacking-looking 25-megabit DVC-PRO on it, and cut it affordably on any firewire-equipped desktop system that's compatible with the slightly-odd DVCPRO data format, which is most of them.

But frankly at that level for my first show I'd be looking at an XL-1.

Putting any other kind of lens on it without a mini35 is kind of silly - the difference it'll make will be tiny.

And I think the mini35 will make it look annoyingly soft.

Phil

Rachel Oliver · April 8, 2005

Hi,

VMI have SDX-900 for £180/day, which I consider to be a steal, although you'd have to check what came with that, whether it's the body only. The big thing there is that you can produce absolutely smacking-looking 25-megabit DVC-PRO on it, and cut it affordably on any firewire-equipped desktop system that's compatible with the slightly-odd DVCPRO data format, which is most of them.

But frankly at that level for my first show I'd be looking at an XL-1.

Putting any other kind of lens on it without a mini35 is kind of silly - the difference it'll make will be tiny.

And I think the mini35 will make it look annoyingly soft.

Phil

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hi;

I agree, for a 1st personal project for DVD I'd find an XL2 and think of it like a baby SDX-900, use the stock lenses, maybe get a soft con and a few ND's and buckle myself in for a steep learning curve....

Olly

Stuart Brereton · April 8, 2005

Listen to Phil!

An XL2 or a DVX100 will give you great images if you take the time to light and compose them properly.

There is absolutely no need for you to spend all that money on HD, when it sounds like all you really want is Progressive scan.

It's always really tempting to hire the latest bit of kit that promises to work miracles for you, but for a showreel piece all you need to demonstrate is an ability to light and to compose shots.

Remember the Steven Poster quote:

"if you can light, it doesn't matter what you shoot on. And, if you can't light, it doesn't matter what you shoot on..."

April 8, 2005

Standard mount for 2/3"-CCD SD and HD cameras; Digiprimes are B4 mount lenses.
<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yeh.. I don't know, it's an option to think about I suppose.

Well, ok, from looking at the comments here, I'm going to shoot with the XL2.

Although, I may still go ahead with the mini35 adapter, just from looking at sample clips it just looks so nice, and could really come in use for this project.

Right, new equipment list:

Canon XL2 (+ Battery(ies) lasting 10 hours)

Tripod

Large Jib

Blue filter, warming filter, polarizer

Wide angle lens with visible distortion (20mm in 35mm equiv)

Standard/Zoom Lens (28mm to 90mm in 35mm equiv, or larger if possible)

And my own lighting kit, when I save up for it. Probably going to buy an interfit studio kit, 2 heads, stands and brolleys. (Link) Although I may end up buying my lighting gear 2nd hand off ebay, I mean, that's the great thing about lights, they never really go "out of date" like most other equipment does. Once you have it, that's it, you can pretty much use it for the rest of your life. The director Damien Reo I was working with on that project bought a lighting kit for 200 quid 10 years ago, he still uses them now and they work fine.

Anyway, tnx for your help.

Edited April 8, 2005 by Daniel J. Ashley-Smith

April 8, 2005

Actually, one thing I was wondering, they say that lighting kit is tungsten. But it doesn't come with any bulbs.

Doesn't the colour temperature come down to what bulb (or gel) you use? I find it kinda of strange that they say the lights are tungsten, considering it doesn't even come with any bulbs. I mean, the heads just power it, don't they?

(As you can tell, I'm useless when it comes to lighting tech, I know how to use the lights and how to get the look I want through positioning e.t.c. but when it comes to the tech side I'm as thick as two planks of wood)

Edited April 8, 2005 by Daniel J. Ashley-Smith

Stuart Brereton · April 8, 2005

The lamps you linked to use 500w Edison screw bulbs (see the Suggested Accessories section under the item description). These lamps are designed primarily for studio portraiture with stills cameras, not for lighting Film/Video.

I don't want to be rude, but if you want to be a DP, then you cannot afford to be ignorant about this sort of thing.

You'd be better off trying to find some second hand redheads or similar on Ebay.

Edited April 8, 2005 by Stuart Brereton

April 8, 2005

I don't want to be rude, but if you want to be a DP, then you cannot afford to be ignorant about this sort of thing.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yeh, afterall a DP is supposed to set-up lighting, so.. better start reading.

You'd be better off trying to find some second hand redheads or similar on Ebay.

I'll look into them (never even heard of them until now), although I just like the idea of the interfit's because they are cheap and I know from experience they do a good job.

Edited April 8, 2005 by Daniel J. Ashley-Smith

April 8, 2005

Portable power supplies.

Theres a chance I might be able to get hold of a fuel power generator, although, could be some trouble because I don't know how loud it is. (Never tried it before)

Is it possible to get hold of power packs that you just charge up? Could be a fair bit of power needed, 1.5kw or something around that. (1kw minimum)

Tnx,

Dan.

Phil Rhodes · April 8, 2005

Hi,

Generators can be loud. Avoid.

> Is it possible to get hold of power packs that you just charge up?

Batteries. Not feasible to power big mains lights that way, though.

> Could be a fair bit of power needed, 1.5kw or something around that. (1kw minimum)

It doesn't quite work like that.

Okay, here we go, I'm going to do Power Electrics 101 so in the future we can snottily tell people to search for it (Perhaps Prof. Tyler could hive it off into a FAQ)

Think of the cable carrying electricity as like a pipe through which water is flowing. The voltage (Volts, B) is analogous to the pressure of the water, or the speed at which it is moving; the current (Amps, A) is analogous to the width of the pipe, or the bulk of the flow. Equipment designed for various voltages is designed to "withstand" the "pressure" of the "flow", which is why a 12V lightbulb explodes when you connect it to 240V mains. Depending on how much power you want to draw - whether you want a 100W lightbulb or a 2000W lightbulb - you can choose to use more or less of the flow (current) that's available, but you can't choose the pressure (voltage).

Important things to realise:

- Voltage is sent by the source; a 12V battery, assuming it is charged, outputs 12V. You can't put a 5V lightbulb on it and choose to take only 5V.

- Current is drawn, that is you can choose how much to draw.

The overall power - the amount of water you can pump through your pipe in a given amount of time, is measured in Watts (W). It is important to realise that you can get the same amount of water through the pipe with a high pressure, small bore pipe, or a low pressure, large bore one. The amount of total transfer you get is simply one multiplied by the other.

Important things:

- You can have a 100W light bulb that works from 12V, or one that works from 240V. The 12V one will draw more current than the 240V one, but they dissipate the same overall power and produce the same amount of light. To figure out the current draw for a given load, divide the wattage by the voltage - 100/12 = 8.3A for our 12V 100W lightbulb.

This is where we return to your question, because batteries are measured in ampere-hours, that is, the number of amps they can supply for one hour before being discharged (but see notes below on this.) An 8Ah battery could theoretically run our 100W lightbulb for one hour before being discharged. The problem here is that - for the sake of something familiar - a battery intended for a broadcast video camera is probably going to be under 8Ah (both of mine are 6) and that's only a desk lamp's worth of power. To run big movie lights from batteries... well, you remember the world war two U-boats which had electric motors? Imagine a pile of the very largest sort of car battery about twenty wide by ten high, and there's one of those in either side. It's impractical. Let's figure it out:

2000W blonde (a movie light), and let's assume we're running it on an inverter from a 12V battery. 2000/12 is... 166 and a bit amps.

The only places that tend to implement battery banks that big are things like nuclear power stations that need reliable emergency power, and it tends to be most of the basement - and even then it'll only run the plant long enough to make the reactor safe.

Small handheld lights only on batteries, I'm afraid.

Oh, and a note on battery capacities. Needless to say, the manufacturers have an interest in making their batteries seem as potent as possible, so they'll take any opportunity they can to juice the figures. Often they quote the capacity "at the four hour rate" or something like that - which means that the capacity stands only if you discharge the battery over four hours, that is, for an 8Ah battery, discharge it with a two-amp load so it sustains for four hours. Lead-acid batteries, intended for backup of intruder alarms and suchlike, are often quoted at the twenty-hour rate, which means you only get the rated capacity at a tiny discharge rate. The capacity often drops off if you discharge them more quickly. Old batteries, or batteries that have been improperly charged, may also have lower than advertised capacity.

Phil

Edited April 8, 2005 by Phil Rhodes