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"New" super-8 camera to market


Lasse Roedtnes

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I like the idea of a kind of Transformer approach to design. Modular. Updgradable. Rather than hardwired and requiring a lot of work to retrofit.

 

For example, what would be a good idea is interchangeable lens mounts, ie. take interchangeability a step further. Not just the lens being interchangeable but the lens mount as well. Disconnect the C mount and connect in an X mount. If it involves a screwdriver who cares. Better than a blowtorch or hacksaw.

 

C

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Thanks, Benjamin!

 

In the meantime I heard form another filmer who tried many of the Pentax /Cosmicar lenses in detail and he said that that they are clearly inferior to most cine film lenses. As industry- or cctv lenses they are optimized to be small, cheap and fast. It seems they all have pretty strong distortion, chromatic aberation and blur in the edges -- plus their apertures are often made form 3 or 4 blades only, thus making ugly bokeh.

 

Still interesting since they are so cheap, but just wanted to share this practical experience. I hear some Kowa lenses are really good, but they are very expensive too... glad I got a good selection of Kern Primes. :)

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I like the idea of a kind of Transformer approach to design. Modular. Updgradable. Rather than hardwired and requiring a lot of work to retrofit.

 

For example, what would be a good idea is interchangeable lens mounts, ie. take interchangeability a step further. Not just the lens being interchangeable but the lens mount as well. Disconnect the C mount and connect in an X mount. If it involves a screwdriver who cares. Better than a blowtorch or hacksaw.

 

C

 

Yes, that's another great idea! One could purchase the camera either with one certain mount, or with the whole set, each mount changeable and appliable by using a screwdriver.

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Thanks, Benjamin!

 

In the meantime I heard form another filmer who tried many of the Pentax /Cosmicar lenses in detail and he said that that they are clearly inferior to most cine film lenses. As industry- or cctv lenses they are optimized to be small, cheap and fast. It seems they all have pretty strong distortion, chromatic aberation and blur in the edges -- plus their apertures are often made form 3 or 4 blades only, thus making ugly bokeh.

 

Still interesting since they are so cheap, but just wanted to share this practical experience. I hear some Kowa lenses are really good, but they are very expensive too... glad I got a good selection of Kern Primes. :)

 

Then what about this Fujinon lens? http://www.c-tac.com/Objektive/feste-Brennweite/F0312M-NFS-eneo.html Guaranteed to be aspherical aka rectilinear, and manufactured according to "high optical and mechanical quality standards".

 

It's CS-mount, but with a wide-angle attachement requiring macro, it could probably work. Its regular focal length is 2.8mm, and with, say, a 0.7x converter, it'd be 1.96mm. Do you have any Kerns that go slightly below 2mm, or even just 3mm, especially aspherical ones?

Edited by Benjamin Dietze
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Which Vision3 stock is this? 50D?

 

Here are the project details:

Format: Max 8 (Super Duper 8)

Aspect Ratio: 2.35:1

Camera: Beaulieu 5008s Multispeed, modified to shoot in the Max 8 format

Lenses:

Fujinon 16mm F/1.4, 1.5 Megapixel Lens (CCTV)

Anamorphot 16/32/1.5x Bolex/Möller Anamorphic Lens

Film:

Kodak Vision2 50D (5201) from Pro8mm

Lab:

Pro8mm, Burbank, CA

Scan:

Millenium M2, 1080p24 to ProRes 422 Codec

Edit:

Final Cut Pro 6, ProRes 422 23.976 Timeline

Post Processing:

Neat Video Denoise Plugin Via Final Cut Pro 6

Anamorphic De-Squeeze via Adobe After Effects CS3

Sharpening via Adobe Photoshop CS3

 

Information above from this full video:

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Guest Glenn Brady

It's CS-mount, but with a wide-angle attachement requiring macro, it could probably work. Its regular focal length is 2.8mm, and with, say, a 0.7x converter, it'd be 1.96mm. Do you have any Kerns that go slightly below 2mm, or even just 3mm, especially aspherical ones?

 

CS-mount lenses I've examined have a rear element that protrudes more than C-mount lenses I've got, so they could damage a camera accepting C-mount lenses, especially as the threaded portion of these CS-mount lenses is 'recessed'.

 

I've got Century C-mount lenses in 1.9mm and 3.5mm focal lengths that cover the 16mm format and Century C-mount lenses in 2.5mm and 3.5mm focal lengths that cover the Super 8 format, so the C-mount specified for this camera would suit my needs perfectly. These lenses are uncommon but can be found.

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Thank you for taking the time to answer my previous queries, Lasse.
I would like to bring your and your team's attention to the modular PS-IMS lens mount system devised by P+S Technik of Germany. It is essentially a simple robust modular mounting system consisting of an intermediate camera side mount + various lens adapters. They have positoned the intermediate camera side mount as an open standard with various OEM manufaturers. So far the following camera manufactures have been adapated, i.e.
SONY PMW-F5 / F55 / F3
Ikonoskop A-Cam
RED One
PS-Cam X35
WEISSCAM HS-2 / HS-1
SI-2K
MINI35
They could potentially manufacture the specific intermediate camera side mount for your camera. This would introduce a much larger range of global users. I have complied the following table for your examination. Note the relatively low cost of the common C-Mount (70 EUR). I suspect that economies of scale would apply.
No. Part No. Lens Mount FFD (mm) EUR 1 20506 Mitchell BNC-R Mount 61.468 560 2 18384 Panavision PV Mount 57.150 415 4 18431 PL Mount 52.000 280 5 22600 Sony B4 Mount 48.000 500 6 18380 Leica R Mount 47.000 415 7 23499 NIkon F Mount 46.500 420 8 18382 Canon EF Mount 44.000 320 9 22646 Canon FD Mount 42.000 320 10 19906 Leica M Mount 27.800 500 11 22605 C Mount 17.526 70

 

Relevant links:
1. Pictures of Lens Mounts:
2. A Vimeo video detailing the "PS-IMS-FZ rear element assembly" for the Sony F3 camera.
3. On-Line Store:
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The prior table did not format correctly. Here it is once again, i.e.

 

No. Part No. Lens Mount FFD (mm) EUR
1 20506 Mitchell BNC-R Mount 61.468 560
2 18384 Panavision PV Mount 57.150 415
3 18431 PL Mount 52.000 280
4 22600 Sony B4 Mount 48.000 500
5 18380 Leica R Mount 47.000 415
6 23499 NIkon F Mount 46.500 420
7 18382 Canon EF Mount 44.000 320
8 22646 Canon FD Mount 42.000 320
9 19906 Leica M Mount 27.800 500
10 22605 C Mount 17.526 70
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CS-mount lenses I've examined have a rear element that protrudes more than C-mount lenses I've got, so they could damage a camera accepting C-mount lenses, especially as the threaded portion of these CS-mount lenses is 'recessed'.

 

It's the other way around: The old C-mount design protudes more than the newer CS-mount design. As a simple mnemonic: C-mounts were designed for film with a larger area than tiny CS sensors, lenses were longer, and the focal point was further away from the gate. Which is why you can put a CS-mount lens easily and without problems on a C-mount camera, but only will have macro, but if you try and put a C-mount lens on a CS-mount camera, you'll crunch the sensor.

 

In short:

 

New CS-mount lens design and old C-mount camera design: Yes, but macro.

Old C-mount lens design and new CS-mount camera design: *CRUNCH!*

 

Once I'll be back in my office on Monday, I can link you to the C/CS-mount FAQs that are still saved in my Firefox session there.

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Many CS lenses don't produce sharp images at all on a C-mount. The focal plane will never be on the film due to a retro lens and a back focus plane which is in a fixed position. I.e. rotating the focusring doesn't alter the position of the rear lens. It only adjust the front and/or inner lenses.

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Guest Glenn Brady

 

It's the other way around: The old C-mount design protudes more than the newer CS-mount design.

.

 

That's not the case with the CS-mount lenses I've got. Screwed in too far, they can damage a C-mount camera.

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Many CS lenses don't produce sharp images at all on a C-mount. The focal plane will never be on the film due to a retro lens and a back focus plane which is in a fixed position. I.e. rotating the focusring doesn't alter the position of the rear lens. It only adjust the front and/or inner lenses.

 

Exactly Andries! Thanks!

 

What I am trying to tell to the people is that!

I never tried it, cause there is no need as many C-mount lenses are in reasonable prices...

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That's not the case with the CS-mount lenses I've got. Screwed in too far, they can damage a C-mount camera.

 

Are you sure those were really CS-mount lenses? The mount itself for both C and CS are 100% identical, so I guess the lenses can be easily mixed up.

 

 

Many CS lenses don't produce sharp images at all on a C-mount. The focal plane will never be on the film due to a retro lens and a back focus plane which is in a fixed position. I.e. rotating the focusring doesn't alter the position of the rear lens. It only adjust the front and/or inner lenses.

 

Nobody said anything about using the focus ring. A CS-mount lens on a C-mount camera is effectively a macro lens. The solution is a wide-angle attachment that requires a macro lens in order to be used, such as the Eumig PMA adapter.

 

 

Why stuck with the CS mount while there are many C-mount lenses around?

 

Because I don't wanna be stuck with normal lenses at best and I'm not a millionaire. Most C-mount lenses were made for a much larger format size than Super8, which is why being stuck with C-mount lenses makes it much more expensive to be able to use a comparable field of vision rather than what's mostly long lenses at the format size that we're working with.

 

And that's exactly why it's a great idea to offer different mounts for a new camera (maybe via co-operation with P + S) with such a tiny format size that most C-mount lenses weren't even made for.

Edited by Benjamin Dietze
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Guest Glenn Brady

 

Are you sure those were really CS-mount lenses? The mount itself for both C and CS are 100% identical, so I guess the lenses can be easily mixed up.

 

Yes, I'm sure.

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Because I don't wanna be stuck with normal lenses at best and I'm not a millionaire. Most C-mount lenses were made for a much larger format size than Super8, which is why being stuck with C-mount lenses makes it much more expensive to be able to use a comparable field of vision rather than what's mostly long lenses at the format size that we're working with.

 

And that's exactly why it's a great idea to offer different mounts for a new camera (maybe via co-operation with P + S) with such a tiny format size that most C-mount lenses weren't even made for.

 

(Please don't understand me wrong. I have nothing personally with you, and here is not the correct place, if any.)

I have respect all your ideas, and this forum is a great place sharing thoughts...

 

I didn't mention you in my CS-mount post as you see... You can do everything what you want, even disassemble the elements of a lens and make an invention. All are great and creative things.

 

By the way, companies don't recommend the CS on a C-mount equipment in their technical literature. Also, you can find 2nd hand great reasonable priced C-mount lenses like new, you don't need to be a millionaire... Using C-mount lens will be perfect on a Super 8 camera as having large element diameter...

 

(By the way, I work in this industry as a professional and an amateur for myself (occasionally) for more than 30 years... Have been with many award-winning engineers, and filmakers before. Do you remember telling me about the boom operator having 30m cables? In my some sets, the sound team has two big cases of equipment and 30m cable is nothing for them. There, I was trying to tell for a much simple way with min. requirements)

Edited by Erkan Umut
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It's the other way around: The old C-mount design protudes more than the newer CS-mount design.

 

The vast majority of C-mount lenses made for cine use have a mounting thread that only protrudes between about 3 and 6mm behind the lens mount, and always covers the rear element. The exceptions are very old lenses made for early 16mm cameras, but once turret cameras were introduced in 1927 lens manufacturers began limiting the rear protrusion of C-mounts to allow the turret to rotate over the aperture plate that covered the shutter within.

 

C-mounts made for TV or CCTV had no such restrictions however, and can sometimes protrude far enough to cause damage. I recently repaired an ACL that had mirror damage due to the incautious fitting of a TV lens. Super 8 Beaulieu cameras like the 4008 with an oscillating mirror have an aperture plate behind the C-mount that tends to prevent these lenses being screwed in so far as to hit the mirror, which is probably a good idea to consider with this new camera.

 

A C-mount is the logical choice for a reflex mirror S8 camera, plenty of lens options and adapters for other mounts, although maybe a micro 4/3 mount would work also. Anything with a shorter flange depth like CS or D-mount leaves very little room for the mirror. The French firm Ercsam pioneered the reflex guillotine mirror with their reflex Camex standard 8mm cameras in the late 50s but had to devise their own mount with a longer flange depth than the 8mm D-mount, and have custom lenses manufactured by Angenieux and Som Berthiot. Beautifully built cameras by the way, worth examining if you're devising a new version. Nizo and Beaulieu were the only other companies I know of that copied the guillotine reflex mirror system. Nizo used fixed and optically adjusted D-mounts with an extended flange depth while Beaulieu managed to squeeze the mirror within the D-mount standard FFD of 12.29mm for their standard 8 cameras. For Super 8 though they moved up to C-mount.

 

The standard focal length for Super 8 is about 15mm which sort of precludes the use of most larger format lenses for anything other than telephoto, so I'm not sure a relatively expensive intermediate mount system like the P&S Technik one is worth the trouble. There is also the Eclair TS intermediate mount as used on the ACL which does the same thing, but it makes more sense for 16mm.

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C-mounts made for TV or CCTV had no such restrictions however, and can sometimes protrude far enough to cause damage. I recently repaired an ACL that had mirror damage due to the incautious fitting of a TV lens. Super 8 Beaulieu cameras like the 4008 with an oscillating mirror have an aperture plate behind the C-mount that tends to prevent these lenses being screwed in so far as to hit the mirror, which is probably a good idea to consider with this new camera.

 

A C-mount is the logical choice for a reflex mirror S8 camera, plenty of lens options and adapters for other mounts, although maybe a micro 4/3 mount would work also. Anything with a shorter flange depth like CS or D-mount leaves very little room for the mirror. The French firm Ercsam pioneered the reflex guillotine mirror with their reflex Camex standard 8mm cameras in the late 50s but had to devise their own mount with a longer flange depth than the 8mm D-mount, and have custom lenses manufactured by Angenieux and Som Berthiot. Beautifully built cameras by the way, worth examining if you're devising a new version. Nizo and Beaulieu were the only other companies I know of that copied the guillotine reflex mirror system. Nizo used fixed and optically adjusted D-mounts with an extended flange depth while Beaulieu managed to squeeze the mirror within the D-mount standard FFD of 12.29mm for their standard 8 cameras. For Super 8 though they moved up to C-mount.

 

The standard focal length for Super 8 is about 15mm which sort of precludes the use of most larger format lenses for anything other than telephoto, so I'm not sure a relatively expensive intermediate mount system like the P&S Technik one is worth the trouble. There is also the Eclair TS intermediate mount as used on the ACL which does the same thing, but it makes more sense for 16mm.

 

Dom, thanks for this great info!

 

Just for examples,

 

the Soviet "Meteor" zoom lenses specially made for the Krasnogorsk-2, 3 and 4 cameras have long rear element protrusions from the end of the M42X1 thread mount on the bodies, if you compare to the ZENIT 35mm still lenses.

 

The COMPUTAR CCTV 1/2 and 2/3 manual zoom lenses in C-mount have very short protrusions (almost none).

 

Beaulieu guillotine mirror system:

u4r1.jpg

 

Nizo Super 8 cameras should utilize the beam-splitting prisms, 'cause the serious models have the fade/overlap capabilities via their shutters:

84la.jpg

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The standard focal length for Super 8 is about 15mm which sort of precludes the use of most larger format lenses for anything other than telephoto, so I'm not sure a relatively expensive intermediate mount system like the P&S Technik one is worth the trouble. There is also the Eclair TS intermediate mount as used on the ACL which does the same thing, but it makes more sense for 16mm.

 

That's exactly why other options beside C-mount should be considered, because most C-mount lenses amount to telephoto lenses in Super8. If it's just a few hundred Euros per mount and Lasse will have a number of cameras fitted with each mount, the final cost per camera will be bearable for the customer buying from Lasse. And some customers could even buy one camera for themselves with the whole set, or any combination of mounts.

Edited by Benjamin Dietze
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Guest Glenn Brady

 

That's exactly why other options beside C-mount should be considered, because most C-mount lenses amount to telephoto lenses in Super8. If it's just a few hundred Euros per mount and Lasse will have a number of cameras fitted with each mount, the final cost per camera will be bearable for the customer buying from Lasse. And some customers could even buy one camera for themselves with the whole set, or any combination of mounts.

 

If the basis of your argument for a mount other than C-mount is to have the use of lenses having a wide field of view for the Super 8 format, what non C-mount lenses do you have in mind (CS-mount lenses, for the reasons already explained, aren't suitable)? What will be achieved if the camera is fitted with an interchangeable mount if such lenses don't exist?

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I'm not sure I understand why C-mount lenses should be regarded as limiting one to "telephoto" shots in Super8.

 

If, for example, the "standard" lens for Super8 is 15mm, then for "standard" shots on Super8 one obtains and uses a 15mm lens. It doesn't matter whether that 15mm lens was designed for larger format cameras. All it means is that on a larger format camera the 15mm gives a wider angle of view.

 

If one wants the same wider angle view on Super8 then one just gets a lens with a shorter focal length.

 

C

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