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"New" super-8 camera to market


Lasse Roedtnes

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"You may have been thinking of the common misconception that a wider lens messes with perspective of the overall picture".

 

This is not a misconception. The wider the lens (ie. the shorter the focal length), the more perspective the resulting image will exhibit. The more telephoto (ie. the longer the lens), the less perspective. It is both an actual perception and has a mathematically explainable reason.

 

"That's actually wrong because once you crop the picture taken with a wide lens to the area of the image you woulda gotten with a longer lens, you'll see that perspective within the cropped area is the same as if taken with the longer lens to begin with."

 

Once you crop the picture, you are no longer talking about the same format camera. If you halve the image width then you have to halve the focal length in order to maintain the same angle of view. This is because focal length is NOT the same thing as angle of view. It is the mathematical relationship between focal length and frame width that defines the angle of view. It is why focal length (ie. expressed in mm or inches), rather than angle of view, is sued to specify a camera lens.

 

"The reason why people perceive an image with an extremely wide lens as exhibiting a distorted perspective is because if you use an extremely wide (rectilinear) lens, the resulting image will show extremely converging lines the more you get from the image's center to the outer areas, which the human brain perceives as perspectual foreshortening. Once your lens is longer than the human field of vision, humans will perceive it as distorted, although entirely different from the distortion seen in fish-eyes."

 

Changing the focal length on the same camera changes the angle of view on that camera which changes the perspective of the resulting image. This has nothing to do with deviations from the human field of vision. It is not some sort of an illusion. Perspective is a real thing. Just play with a zoom lens on the same camera. As you change the focal length, the angle of view changes. There is no cropping going on. The crop stays the same.

 

Ignoring vignetting and any deviation from rectilinear projection (such as a fisheye lens) the following is 100% correct

 

All lenses of the same focal length, on the same camera, will give the same angle of view.

 

Carl

 

 

 

 

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Benjamin is right for me, Carl, thou I couldn't open the images he is attached.

 

The perspective never changes if you don't alter the subject to camera distance (for example zooming, you crop from the image size, like enlarging a part of a picture, in contrast to dollying/traveling). I know this good, because its my business, as well as I teach it at the university in cinematography classes. Wide angle lenses tend to create fake perspective visuals. But what changes with wide angle lenses is the closer subjects to camera gets bigger faster relative to the rest. Normal and esp. Telephoto lenses show this very less compared to the W/A.

 

The term "crop" refers to a change in the frame size, ie a change in film format. The crop takes place in the film plane. So Super8 has have a different crop from 16mm. Or more simply: a different frame size.

 

There is no such thing as "fake perspective". Perspective is not an illusion. It is a real visual phenomena. As we take in a wider angle of view we get a greater perspective.

 

What do we mean when we say a wider lens, as distinct from a shorter lens. It means we are talking about the fact that the lens has a wider angle of view. The fact that it also has a shorter focal length sort of goes into the background. Indeed we can end up wondering what on focal length means, because our main interest is actually the angle of view.

 

The focal length, as a numerical quantity, becomes important when we don't know the angle of view and we want to calculate it. For example, we might considering renting or buying a lens for a particular camera and wanting to know what angle of view it will produce on that camera. It doesn't matter one iota what camera the lens was originally made. The focal length tells us all we need to know. The only other two considerations are lens mount and what crop the lens might introduce. As for the latter, so long as we choose a lens designed for a larger format camera we will be fine.

 

So if, for our Super8 camera, we want to get a 44 degree angle of view, then we would choose a 7mm lens. As discussed, any 7mm lens will do it. Whether it was a 7mm designed for VistaVision, 35mm or 16mm.

 

If this is not correct, I challenge anyone to tell me what the correct focal length would otherwise be.

 

C

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Carl, try to shoot three pictures having a head from, say, 3 meters with w/a, normal and tele lens each w/o altering the distance. Then match those two pictures shot w/a and normal to the head taken with tele by enlarging. Look at the background, will you see any difference?

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SoI'm attempting to unravel Benjamin's error. I think I've got it.

 

I said, and this remains completely true:

 

So for example, any 7mm lens, whether it was made for Vistavision cameras, or for 35mm cameras, or for 16mm cameras, they will all give the same angle of view on Super8.

 

Benjamin jumps in, all guns blazing, and says:

 

Wrong.

 

But I am not wrong. Benjamin goes on to say that the crop factor is the same as the format factor, and he is indeed correct:

 

A smaller format will crop to a smaller portion of the same lense's light circle, and thus to a smaller part of the angle of vision, which is "how much you see". The smaller your format, the less you see at the very same focal length. Which is why the format factor is also known as the crop factor.

 

However if you re-read what I was saying I am not talking about any change in the crop/format factor, We're talking about a Super8 camera and what lens you might get for it. In other words the crop/format factor is the same.

 

So there is no change in crop/format

 

We are talking about whether a 7mm lens for a large format camera will give the same angle of view as a 7mm lens designed for a smaller format camera - ie. when used on a Super8 camera. The answer is YES.

 

As for lens circle and what it sees, that is not the same thing as angle of view. The size of the lens circle can vary all over the shop from one manufacturer to another. The angle of view is that which is visible within the frame. That's the definition of view angle - what the frame sees, not what the lens circle sees.

 

Benjamin goes on to say:

 

Moving the imaging plane back and forth within the camera won't help you much because the focal plane for a lens is very limited.

 

Changing the focal length means changing the distance between the lens' centre of projection and the film plane. That's what is meant by the term focal length. It is this distance. This is what a zoom lens varies. The only way to vary the focal length of a prime is to get another prime with a different focal length. It will have a different distance between it's centre of projection and the film plane.

 

The source of Benjamin's error is in confusing the "angle of view" a lens circle might arbitrarily give you, and the angle of view that a crop + focal length gives you. The angle of view that the crop + focal length gives you is the more important one, and is what is otherwise meant by angle of view. It is that which you see when looking through a reflex viewfinder. It is that which is rendered on the film and projected on a screen.

 

Furthermore there is no relationship whatsoever between a lens' focal length and it's lens circle. A 7mm designed for Vistavision will give you a much larger lens circle than a 7mm designed for 16mm. However both will give you same angle of view if used on the same camera.

 

 

C

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We are talking about whether a 7mm lens for a large format camera will give the same angle of view as a 7mm lens designed for a smaller format camera - ie. when used on a Super8 camera. The answer is YES.

 

As for lens circle and what it sees, that is not the same thing as angle of view. The size of the lens circle can vary all over the shop from one manufacturer to another. The angle of view is that which is visible within the frame. That's the definition of view angle - what the frame sees, not what the lens circle sees.

Absolutely, YEEES!

 

Further on optics, the other topic followers gonna f*ck me I think :D :

 

The diameters of the circles of confusion in lenses for Super 8 format will be smaller than any of other for larger formats, so the Depth of Field will be shallow in smaller formats relative to larger formats. (Think the light flow as a cone towards the image plane just after the rays are refracted in the lens.)

Edited by Erkan Umut
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Just for completion on angle of view.

 

So Benjamin is correct but has misunderstood what was defined as angle of view. The angle of view is defined as what the frame/crop sees rather than what the lens circle sees. The lens circle has no relationship to focal length and varies arbitrarily. Lenses designed for larger cameras will have larger lens circles, but to reiterate - these circles have no relationship to focal length, and have no bearing on the angle of view within the frame. It is the focal length which is the important variable - not the lens circle (other than larger ones will avoid vignetting).

 

In the following the same focal length lens is depicted in terms of what is imaged at the film plane. Although the lens circle is different in both cases, neither the focal length nor angle of view inside the frame is different. And it's the angle of view in the frame that is the important thing. And that is what the focal length number + crop factor (or image size) gives you.

 

 

 

 

AngleOfView3.jpg

Edited by Carl Looper
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I agree. I am following this discussion closely, but want two threads since they are no longer integral. It might be a turn off to people. I know it is, actually, because I shared this thread with some film loving friends who are not members and they stopped reading once the lens discussions began. It's technical for them.

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Consider the New camera thread closed. Lasse will need to start another when posting news on the New one :)

 

The rest has become an attempt to educate a newbee on emulsion-filmcutting and then on the basics of the meaning of long establised terms in photography and optics.

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(Still replying here as I don't see any new thread devoted to this issue.)

 

Weird. The images showed up for me in my final post on Tuesday, but now they don't. So here's their original Wikipedia URLs:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/98/Format_Factor.gif
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f5/Full-frame_vs_APS-C.svg/595px-Full-frame_vs_APS-C.svg.png
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/49/LensCropFactor.png

Anyway, here's one of the two promised sources I had on the C-vs.-CS-mount dispute:

 

Q. Can I use a cs-mount lens on a c-mount camera or vice versa?

A. If you put a cs-mount lens on a c-mount camera (or use it with a c-mount adapter) you will not have infinity focus but you may be able to use it for macro work. It will be as though you were using a 5mm extension tube. Note, however, that most cs-mount lenses project a smaller image circle than many c-mount lenses so you may get vignetting. You can use a c-mount lens on a cs-mount camera by putting a 5mm extension tube between the lens and the camera: it will give infinity focus and will usually work fine in all respects.


So because according to www.c-mountlens.com, C-mount lenses protude more than CS-mount lenses by 5mm, you'll need a 5mm extension ring in order to use a C-mount lens on a CS-mounted camera, but not in order to put a CS-mount lens on a C-mounted camera where the only problem will be that the lens is macro.

The other source that agreed with www.c-mountlens.com that C-mount lenses protrude more than CS-mount lenses, complete with schematic graphics, was at http://www.scansourcesecurity.com/MicroSites/ScanSourceSecurity/ipcenter/files/CameraandLensCompatibility.pdf , but it appears to have been deleted over the weekend.

 

 

 

This is not a misconception. The wider the lens (ie. the shorter the focal length), the more perspective the resulting image will exhibit. The more telephoto (ie. the longer the lens), the less perspective. It is both an actual perception and has a mathematically explainable reason.

 

Perspective does not equal angle of vision. Perspective refers to the mathematical phenomenon or behavior of lines leadings towards one or several vanishing points, whereas angle of vision refers to "how much you see", in other words, where the cut-off edges of your image are and what's squeezed in-between them.

 

Once you crop the picture, you are no longer talking about the same format camera. [...] This is because focal length is NOT the same thing as angle of view.

 

Exactly. That's why it's called format factor, and why I said that the angle of vision for a given lens for one format (such as 35mm) does not equal the angle of vision with the same lens, but a smaller format (such as Super8). In other words: You need insanely costly C-mount lenses to achieve a rectilinear field of vision of 100° or above in Super8.

 

Changing the focal length on the same camera changes the angle of view on that camera which changes the perspective of the resulting image.

 

No. See the respective definitions of perspective and field of vision above.

 

Just play with a zoom lens on the same camera. As you change the focal length, the angle of view changes. There is no cropping going on. The crop stays the same.

 

Once you lose stuff on the edges, it's called cropping. Which is why the format factor is also known as the crop factor.

 

There is no such thing as "fake perspective". Perspective is not an illusion.

 

Perspective is a real thing, albeit one that does not equal field of vision (see above). The illusion is such that people erroneously perceive a dizzying change or rather distortion of perspective because the human brain processes converging lines on a 2D image as representations of size and distance. As soon as you've got a rectilinear lens with a field of vision that's larger than the human one, angles will change in such a way that the human brain automatically perceives things as grotesquely and imposingly larger than they usually appear with a human field of vision because of the change in converging lines, especially the closer to the lens a photographed object is.

 

That's why wide-angle lenses enlarge the perspective perceived by a human audience (whereas telephoto lenses compress it, an effect used by Leni Riefenstahl in Triumph of Will in order to compress large crowds and juxtaposing those compressing telephoto shots with shots of their Führer seen through normal lenses instead to make him appear tall and allmighty in comparison), a wide-angle effect that you can emphasize by putting important objects closer to the lens than others, even though its wide field of vision will paradoxically capture more background around the object. Once you go from wide-angle to rectilinear ultra-wide angle, the effect becomes so great that it begins to arouse vague feelings of confusion, disturbance, unsettling, bizarreness, or even enchanted whimsicality, grandness, and majesty, depending upon other factors such as lighting, production design, mise-en-scene, and plot.

 

 

What do we mean when we say a wider lens, as distinct from a shorter lens. It means we are talking about the fact that the lens has a wider angle of view. The fact that it also has a shorter focal length sort of goes into the background. Indeed we can end up wondering what on focal length means, because our main interest is actually the angle of view.

 

Which is part of the reason why I've said in a post somewhere here that it would be much more intuitive to give the field of vision for a given lens on a variety of formats, rather than sticking to focal length figures usually derived from 35mm Academy or 35mm Full-Format.

 

Benjamin jumps in, all guns blazing, and says:

 

Wrong.

 

Yes, I'm sorry for my rude wording. In any case, prior to my last post, you kept saying that we don't need to worry about achieving any field of vision with any given lens in Super8, because you said that "all lenses always have the same field of vision, no matter in what format".

 

However if you re-read what I was saying I am not talking about any change in the crop/format factor, We're talking about a Super8 camera and what lens you might get for it. In other words the crop/format factor is the same.

 

We were not comparing Super8 with Super8, we were comparing focal lengths and the field of vision of given lenses in 35mm and 16mm with Super8, so format and crop do change.

 

We are talking about whether a 7mm lens for a large format camera will give the same angle of view as a 7mm lens designed for a smaller format camera - ie. when used on a Super8 camera. The answer is YES.

 

The answer is close, but no cigar. We were talking about whether a 7mm lens will have the same angle of vision in Super8 as it does in 16mm and 35mm. That's why the answer is no.

Edited by Benjamin Dietze
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As for lens circle and what it sees, that is not the same thing as angle of view. The size of the lens circle can vary all over the shop from one manufacturer to another.

 

Yes, which is why I said that with Super8, the lens circle issue is usually neglectable as Super8 is so small compared to most other formats, although many manuals and FAQs caveat that the light circle for a given lens may "not be usable for film" because they're simply thinking in terms of the large 35mm format. I said that while maintaining that it's hard to go beyond a field of vision of 100° in Super8 because I do know the difference between field of vision and the light circle. That's why I said that it would be much more economical to switch to CS-mount because those lenses were usually designed for smaller image areas such as 1/3", so it's easier to come by a lens with a wide field of vision in Super8.

 

 

 

Changing the focal length means changing the distance between the lens' centre of projection and the film plane. That's what is meant by the term focal length. It is this distance. This is what a zoom lens varies.

 

Yes, but there's just no physically possible way to move a tiny Super8 imaging area far enough to achieve a field of vision or crop even remotely equaling that of 16mm or even 35mm without moving it waaaaay out of the focal plane so badly that no amount of focussing range could ever help getting the image in focus again.

 

The only workaround to that are very, very expensive adapter lenses that are usually called 35mm adapters (such as those that happen to be made by aforementioned P + S, although at far higher prices than the ones for just a set of different mounts), although most videots only use it for a "filmic" DOF (because, as Erkan mentions, smaller formats have larger DOFs) as they have no idea about field of vision.

 

 

Just for completion on angle of view.

 

So Benjamin is correct but has misunderstood what was defined as angle of view. The angle of view is defined as what the frame/crop sees rather than what the lens circle sees. The lens circle has no relationship to focal length and varies arbitrarily. Lenses designed for larger cameras will have larger lens circles, but to reiterate - these circles have no relationship to focal length, and have no bearing on the angle of view within the frame. It is the focal length which is the important variable - not the lens circle (other than larger ones will avoid vignetting).

 

In the following the same focal length lens is depicted in terms of what is imaged at the film plane. Although the lens circle is different in both cases, neither the focal length nor angle of view inside the frame is different. And it's the angle of view in the frame that is the important thing. And that is what the focal length number + crop factor (or image size) gives you.

 

 

 

 

AngleOfView3.jpg

 

You are wrong in assuming that I would be confusing image circle and angle of vision (as otherwise I wouldn't have said that the commonly related light circle issue doesn't matter in Super8 while maintaining that it's harder to go *REALLY WIDE* with Super8). I have been talking about field of vision all the time, and only once mentioned the light circle in passing, saying that we don't need to worry about it in any way because Super8 is so small, whereas I said that we *DO* need to worry about field of vision and focal length.

Edited by Benjamin Dietze
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Hi Benjamin,

 

I know you think you are right on this but unless you understand why the angle of view can't be marked on a lens you won't understand what I'm saying.

 

 

Quote

Just play with a zoom lens on the same camera. As you change the focal length, the angle of view changes. There is no cropping going on. The crop stays the same.

 

Once you lose stuff on the edges, it's called cropping. Which is why the format factor is also known as the crop factor.

 

 

The format factor or crop factor relates to the film format, ie. the physical size of the film frame. The rectangular mask on the film crops the image that is otherwise falling on the film.

 

When you play with a zoom lens you not altering the crop factor. The film frame (the crop) remains the same physical size. What you are altering is the scale of the image that is falling on that film. As you increase the focal length this literally means you are moving the centre of projection further away from the film. This increases the size of the image that is otherwise falling on the film. The size of the film doesn't change - it stays the same size. What the change in focal length does is to change the size of the image falling on that frame.

 

The resulting effect (as seen through the viewfinder) is that you are "zooming in" on the image, ie. as if the image were staying the same size. But what is really changing is not the crop/format/frame size, but the size of the image with respect to that crop/format/frame size. The crop/format/frame size doesn't change.

 

 

 

Quote

Changing the focal length means changing the distance between the lens' centre of projection and the film plane. That's what is meant by the term focal length. It is this distance. This is what a zoom lens varies.

 

Yes, but there's just no physically possible way to move a tiny Super8 imaging area far enough to achieve a field of vision or crop even remotely equaling that of 16mm or even 35mm without moving it waaaaay out of the focal plane so badly that no amount of focussing range could ever help getting the image in focus again.

 

The film doesn't move. It is the lenses centre of projection which moves. It moves towards the film or away from the film. It's exactly the same thing going on when you move a film projector towards a screen or away from a screen. As you move it towards a screen (decreasing the distance) the smaller the image it becomes. As you move it away the bigger the image becomes.

 

A zoom lens does exactly the same thing. It physically alters the focal length, ie. it physcially alters the distance between the centre of projection and the film. That is what focal length means. To suggest a zoom lens can't physically do this just flies in the fact of completely obvious facts. Or at least what should now be obvious.

 

 

 

Quote

What do we mean when we say a wider lens, as distinct from a shorter lens. It means we are talking about the fact that the lens has a wider angle of view. The fact that it also has a shorter focal length sort of goes into the background. Indeed we can end up wondering what on focal length means, because our main interest is actually the angle of view.

 

Which is part of the reason why I've said in a post somewhere here that it would be much more intuitive to give the field of vision for a given lens on a variety of formats, rather than sticking to focal length figures usually derived from 35mm Academy or 35mm Full-Format.

 

 

Unless you understand why you should not put angle of view on a lens you won't have any understanding of what is being discussed here. The reason you do put focal length on a lens is because that number doesn't make any assumptions about film format. It is a number that does not need to be changed when changing camera format. Whereas the angle of view is something that does change.

 

Please review what has been said carefully. You will have your eyes opened and you will feel a great burden lifted. :)

 

C

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Hi Benjamin,

 

you've got a lot right but what you are misunderstanding is why you can actually interchange lenses of the same focal length (regardless of film format) and get the same angle of view on the same camera. It is this question which was asked and that I've been answering.

 

To put it another way, and this is a challenge, or lesson specifically for you (but for which anyone can also learn something)

 

What is the difference, in angle of view, between the following two scenarios, (where angle of view is defined as that angle which the film frame sees)

 

1. A 7mm lens designed for a 35mm camera, used on a Super8 camera.

2. A 7mm lens designed for a 16mm camera, used on a Super8 camera.

 

C

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Benjamin,

 

If anything should be worked as a macro, the elements should be far away from the film/focal plane in order to get enlargement just the regular way. Example, extension tubes for not macro lenses.

I remember, when I was working with an Arriflex 35IIC years ago, the director wanted an extremely large detail of a subject. I had no macro lenses in my lens set. I found an easy but unofficial solution cause the lens mount was ARRI Std mount. What I did? I shifted the tele lens forward from the plane.

 

The sophisticated lens designs apply the element structure (esp. in S8 cameras) having added macro feature for doing the same in a lens seen as a macro lock mechanism on the rear barrel (designated as M). This is possible by altering the back focus distance.

 

(The simplest form is Close-up filters +1,2,3 etc. for the frontal element to be able to create a virtual bigger image.)

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"Macro lenses are usually C-mount lenses. While "Normal" C-Mount and CS-Mount lenses are used at distances of 50cm, 1m or even hundreds or thousands of meters, Macro lenses are typically used at very short distances, this even could be a few millimeters. They may or may not be used on larger distances. There's no fixed limit for the distances that distinguishes Macro lenses from "Normal" lenses. Macro lenses however work better on short distances than on far distances. Simply because they were designed for this purpose."

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just for reference.

 

if you look at the table i posted and use say a 10mm lens for reference on both the S8 and 16mm side of the chart you will see that the angle of view corresponds to 33° for the S8 and to 55° for the 16mm respectively. given same 10mm lens if it fits both "cams" without physical vignetting.

 

shoot......

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Benjamin,

 

I forgot to add this:

 

If you use tubes for macro you should know the exposure loss to be compensated ("effective f/stop", because it is a ratio of focal length and aperture size).

 

This is not a problem with the close-ups as the effective aperture no longer increases.

 

Hope this and others help...

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Here's an example of how you use focal length + sensor/film format to determine angle of view.

 

Edmund optics has a C mount 1.67mm lens that should cover a Super8 frame (it covers 1/2.3 inch sensor which is slightly larger than Super8)

 

http://www.edmundopt...le-lenses/68695

 

Field of view is given as 110 degrees on a 1/3 inch sensor. Well that's all well and fine if we had a 1/3 inch sensor but how do we work out the fov for Super8? Well we don't use the fov number at all. We use the focal length. But lets first see if Edmunds has got the fov for 1/3 inch sensor correct.

 

According to http://en.wikipedia....rmats_and_sizes

 

1/3 inch sensor has a width of 4.8 mm. So lets use that as sensor width, and of course, 1.67 mm as the focal length.

 

angle = 2 inverse tan( 0.5 w / F)
w - width of film (4.8 mm)
F - focal length (1.67 mm)
angle = 2 inverse tan( 0.5 * 4.8 / 1.67)
angle = 2 inverse tan( 2.4 / 1.67 )
angle = 2 inverse tan ( 1.437)
angle = 2 * 55.16 degrees
angle = 110 degrees (rounded)
Yep. Edmunds has the number exactly right.
Now lets get the angle of view for Super8
angle = 2 inverse tan( 0.5 w / F)
w - width of film (5.69 mm)
F - focal length (1.67 mm)
angle = 2 inverse tan( 0.5 * 5.69 / 1.67)
angle = 2 inverse tan( 2.845 / 1.67 )
angle = 2 inverse tan ( 1.7)
angle = 2 * 59.58 degrees
angle = 119 degrees (rounded)
Carl
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Quit hijacking this thread! Start a new one if you want to discuss other BS!

 

We're talking about lenses for the new Super8 camera - the discussion has become somewhat detailed by I don't think it's been hijacked. It's still on topic. What else is currently on offer? I haven't seen anything else related to the camera being put forward - but am quite happy to hear any.

 

Carl

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Carl please try not to give further mathematical examples and be simple. There are not engineers only among us...

 

Many thanks!

 

 

Those who can't follow the maths don't have to. They can just look at the conclusions. The maths is there for those who can follow it or would like to follow it, or would like to try and follow it. Or would like to disprove it, or argue against it.

 

Rather than write out an an equation and a conclusion I've elaborated the steps involved in using the equation - something which can be done by anyone on a calculator without having to know anything really about the maths behind it. But that too is there if one goes back to where I showed how I derived it and the basis for it.

 

I'm not here to entertain some mythological needs of an audience. I'm here to throw some light on a problem. While it has it's origin in a specific problem posed in relation to this new Super8 camera, the answer to such problems is inevitably to be found in a more wider and more generic approach to these things, ie. one ends up solving more than the original problem. And that's a good thing methinks.

 

Carl

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Lasse, you are the topic starter, would be please inform us on any news, if possible and any. Sincere thanks!

 

If you want to support this thread and help in optical related things, let's continue on the mount for the reasonable priced lenses with good performance since it won't be any bloody expensive camera (at least I hope)...

 

Thanks!

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A CS mount is not a bad idea.

 

CS mount lenses tend to be cheaper than C mount lenses because they tend to use less glass. They don't have to support as large a frame size as the majority of C mount lenses do. So that sounds sort of a good reason to use such.

 

And one could always use a C to CS adapter in order use a C mount lens.

 

C

Edited by Carl Looper
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