"New" super-8 camera to market

[Matt Stevens]

No question the older 8mm cameras can develop problems that just infuriate you. Out of the blue they will just do **** that screws up the works. Getting them fixed can be easy... or a nightmare.

 

The idea of a BRAND NEW super8 camera is as amazing as amazing gets. If it turns out to be a reliable piece of hardware, then it can only allow 8mm a chance to hang around a bit longer.

 

My only very real fear is the idea of Kodak no longer producing 8mm cartridges. Then we have Pro8 and only Pro8mm and their prices will skyrocket and that will be that for me.

Edited November 22, 2013 by Matt Stevens

[Erkan Umut]

Heikki,

 

I am so sorry to hear that. An unlucky story... :(

 

For paying work, ohh, my goodness... You are absolutely right! Nothing is sure in the film business.

 

Once, my assistant didn't find time to check the camera before "in a hurry" shooting, and a silly boy, who is the rental house owner's son, have mixed the gates of the 16SRII and 16SRII HS accidentally while cleaning the cameras. The HS was rented by our producer for a music video. What a bad chance! The HS mags, having the lower pressure plate force than the regular ones, didn't match with the regular gate on the HS body (!), and the result: all the Tele photographed and wider open images were thrown away due to the flange focal problem...

 

I hope that the Lasse's camera fills the gap!!!

[Heikki Repo]

Yeah, I hope for that too :)

 

For the record, the unlucky commercial:

 

 

 

 

Super-8 has a lot of potential, a new camera to harness it all is certainly welcome! :)

Edited November 22, 2013 by Heikki Repo

[Anthony Schilling]

This comes at a time where i'm becoming more interested in doing pro work. I have a plan of course and ideas ready to go, and this camera could iron out the bugs that have been holding me back. Pin registration... the increase in sharpness is huge and having no jitter is very important. Max 8 gate... everyone expects a wide screen image and not having to crop on an already small frame is important. Crystal sync... I don't plan on doing much lip sync but it's real nice to have that option if i need it. I want to stick with S8 because i want to stand apart from everything else, but in the best way possible.

[Jean-Louis Seguin]

Excellent report (in German) by Friedemann Wachsmuth on the camera:

 

http://www.filmkorn.org/sensation-neue-super-8-kamera-aus-daenemark/

 

Jean-Louis

[Nicholas Kovats]

Excellent report by Friedmann. Thanks, Jean-Louis. Very impressive application of a digital stepper motor. Digital PPL comes to Super 8! This will allow phasing such that speed ramps (!) coupled with the shutter will allow precise on the fly exposure compensation of changing frame rates.

 

And the bloody registration pin. Whoa. This is not going to be your family's home movie camera. Looking forward to Friedmann's film tests!

Edited November 22, 2013 by Nicholas Kovats

[Tom Chabbat]

I really doubt the pin registration or separate pressure plate will add anything noticeable in picture quality. I'm really eager to see some footage coming out of it.

[Matt Stevens]

Excellent report (in German) by Friedemann Wachsmuth on the camera:

 

http://www.filmkorn.org/sensation-neue-super-8-kamera-aus-daenemark/

 

 

We need an English version of this article like now!

[Erkan Umut]

Nicholas, there is no way that you can compensate the ramp exposure, but via the synced lens aperture motor, in this camera as far as I know!

 

Tom, the pressure plate add-on will really work, because the image will be magnified for the HD resolution, also there is no need for a pin registration as the pull-down claw timing (delaying the claw, engaged in the perforation, prior to the sinusoidal movement for the transport phase) will work also well enough for this format. Tested in any format before with enough success, but larger formats show better steadiness with the registration pin...

 

Heikki, thank you for sharing your music video and the clip with us. The image smear (like the travel ghost in projectors) is not so bad. ;)

By the way, the large images (close-ups) have a deep depth of field due to the smaller format. I prefer shallow.

 

I am very happy that Friedmann mentions Nikon R10 in his great article. :) ;)

Edited November 22, 2013 by Erkan Umut

[Nicholas Kovats]

Erkan,

 

One can definitely impact exposure and DOF with varying shutter speeds. Not as apparent as changes in the iris but measurable and visible.

 

Cheers!

 

Nicholas

[Nicholas Kovats]

Tom,

Pin registration and pressure plates are long term design principals in motion picture transport. They work well and have done so for a long time. Respectfully, your statement is without merit absent factual data.

Whether intentional or not, Lasse and his Dad have emulated the famous Mekel Engineering SP1 Super 8 camera transport whereas film is pulled out from the standard plastic 50ft Kodak S8 cartridge and laced around a precision PPL motor drive shaft/cog. That in itself removes the plastic cartridge co-axial platters and "dinky" back plate (spring loaded?) out of the equation.

The traditional method of moving film through this Kodak system is dependent on optimal conditions involving injection molded plastic innards. I suspect there is considerable induced friction.

That the tiny Super 8 film is laced around a precision control PPL digital motor in Lasse and Terry's prototype is excellent. The reported resolution of the motor appears to be very high as per the article. Plus the pin registration.

One of my many projects involves attempts to produce or acquire Mekel SP-1 footage to be scanned for public discussion and I suspect that the Mekel's 1970's era PPL "digital" motor in conjunction with pin registration will eventually hold muster. Considerably. This wonderful new S8 project may inspire a few of us dormant SP-1 owner/operators.

Regards,

Nicholas

 

 

I really doubt the pin registration or separate pressure plate will add anything noticeable in picture quality. I'm really eager to see some footage coming out of it.

Edited November 22, 2013 by Nicholas Kovats

[Erkan Umut]

One can definitely impact exposure and DOF with varying shutter speeds. Not as apparent as changes in the iris but measurable and visible.

 

Nicolas, do you believe yourself that I don't know that? :) You know me, maan. ;)

 

You misunderstood me buddy, what I mean this camera has no variable shutter (as far as I know) for the angular change the ramp requested for synced compensation automatically. I have used ramp several times in ARRI 435 ES and Advanced between 25 to 150fps...

 

By the way, you cannot change the DoF with the shutter angle exactly, but the image and movement sharpness, because you alter the exposure time. The similar is for the higher speed shootings!

DoF could be changed via F/T-stop change! This is an optical thing due to the circle of confusion ;)

 

All the Best,

 

Erkan

Edited November 22, 2013 by Erkan Umut

[Erkan Umut]

Friedmann wrotes:

 

"Der Hellsektor der Umlaufblende hat derzeit übrigens 180°, was aber auch noch einfach zu ändern wäre. Eine verstellbare Sektorenblende ist nicht vorgesehen, der konstruktive Aufwand ist schlichtweg zu hoch."

 

This means:

The open angle of the rotary shutter is currently 180 °, which would also still easy to change. An adjustable shutter is not provided, the design effort is simply too high.

Edited November 22, 2013 by Erkan Umut

[Erkan Umut]

The Nordic people will gain popularity for the new attempts I think. :)

 

I remember the a-cam 16mm camera from Sweden. This time from Denmark. Next could be from Norway and Finland...

[Anthony Schilling]

I really doubt the pin registration or separate pressure plate will add anything noticeable in picture quality. I'm really eager to see some footage coming out of it.

Have you ever shot DS8? It basically uses a metal pressure plate system just like a 16mm camera. When 100D was available, i would splice DS8 and Super 8 cartridge film together and the contrast between the 2 was remarkable. The DS8 was a lot sharper and more stable, In fact it looked closer to 16mm 100D than Super 8 100D. 7285 was a soft stock to begin with, so the Vision3 films should look incredibly sharp with pin registration.

[Erkan Umut]

Have you ever shot DS8? It basically uses a metal pressure plate system just like a 16mm camera. When 100D was available, i would splice DS8 and Super 8 cartridge film together and the contrast between the 2 was remarkable. The DS8 was a lot sharper and more stable, In fact it looked closer to 16mm 100D than Super 8 100D. 7285 was a soft stock to begin with, so the Vision3 films should look incredibly sharp with pin registration.

 

Anthony,

 

Thank you for your share, I liked it!

 

I have shot with ELMO C-300 using the DS8 magazine, QUARZ 2X8C-3, and Meopta A 8G2 Supra poop. They have no registration pins.

[Erkan Umut]

[Tom Chabbat]

I shot in single 8 which has separate pressure plate, and I've tried the little add-on metal pressure plate you put on standard plastic cartridges. Both showed no-improvements. Be it metal or plastic doesn't change a thing as long as there's sufficient tolerance. And Nicolas, before you say my statement is based on no factual data, I suggest you put your hands for once on real professional grade 35mm and 16mm cameras. Both Aaton and Eclair before produced rock steady camera without any registration pin. Aaton actually achieve a better registration than most of "pin" based system with a quartz controlled pull down claw. Please check some facts.

I feel when a technology once dominant goes to a niche market, some myths quickly rise. All this reminds me of the belt vs direct drive in Hi-Fi, or anchor vs coaxial escapement in horology. Vain quests in superiority for nostalgic geeks. I feel Super 8 must be appreciated as it is, an amateur format with qualities and flaws. Just shoot it, nobody will notice registration problems. I fear we're going here with the same consumerist flaws that makes me hate digital, this always more, always better kind of thinking. People are happy with 1080p ? Let them want 4K ! Where are we going ? Can't we be happy with just what we have if the quality is already fully enjoyable ?

I've seen lately some wonderful HD transfers of super 8 on vimeo. They were mostly made with old Beaulieu or Canon and I thought the quality was astonishing. Apart from the fact that I doubt it's possible, in anyways I happy with this quality and don't want more.

[Erkan Umut]

Tom,

 

The know-how is the key to success, and cannot be achieved easily, needs time... Manufacturing is only an important small detail. If you have the blue print and know the exact tolerances, its a child's play with todays CNC technology with the experienced workers.

 

Who is behind the eclair? Agusti Coma, Jacques Lecœur, and later on, Jean-Pierre Beauviala

 

and AATON? Jean-Pierre Beauviala (have been corresponded and discussed several times before)

 

and ARRI? Engineer Dr. Robert Richter, Erich Kaestner, Thomas Popp, and Günther Zoeh (have been met several times with the last two in Munich, Amsterdam and Istanbul before).

 

(We should give the people a chance, and should not underestimate serious amateurs, as well as semi-professionals. This is my thought of course.)

 

Best,

 

Erkan

[Tom Chabbat]

Erkan,

 

I don't clearly see what you're trying to show here...

 

You're absolutely right, we should always give people a chance, and that's why I hope this project succeed, even if I have my own doubts.

 

I don't think we can really compare those companies with what is happening here. All those people tried to introduce something new, a disruptive technology (like instant magazines for Eclair, reflex shutter for Arri or timecode for Beauviala). Here we just have a mix bag of already proven technology. Even if it's somewhat new to have all those technologies in one super 8 camera, it's nothing like a real engineering advance.

[Friedemann Wachsmuth]

Very impressive application of a digital stepper motor.

It's not a stepper, it's a normal DC motor -- if that matters. :)

 

Florian is working on a full translation to english already.

 

Erkan: Your input is valid, but you are watching a prototype -- the buttons, outlets and controls are not at their final position yet. Also, everything green-grayish is printed PLA at this point. This will not be the case in the production version.

 

Tom: Claiming that "nobody will notice registration problems" when Super 8 is "just shot" is a very wild statement. Just one detail FYI: The plastic piece in the S8 cart is no pressure plate. It is not intended to press against the film, it is just intended to support it while "running free". The little GK-Framemaster plate can not fix this conceptual downside since the friction gets way too high for a pull-claw with no supporting sprocket gear. If you are "happy with this quality and don't want more", then just stick with what you have :)

 

The danish camera just implements best industry practices and circumvents most of the conceptual weaknesses of the crappy S8-Cartridge. You should see projected test footage -- the frame line does not move a tiny bit at all. Never seen this stability on any Super 8 footage ever. A Nikon R10 with Agfa Aviphot Chrome 200 D (very flexible Polyester base) gets close, but not as good as what the Logmar produces.

 

BTW: I only realized tonight that the film also has pressure saddles (not sure if thats the right term) on the sides, so horizontal jitter doesn't exist either. Pretty exciting.

[Erkan Umut]

Erkan,

 

I don't clearly see what you're trying to show here...

I don't think we can really compare those companies with what is happening here. All those people tried to introduce something new, a disruptive technology (like instant magazines for Eclair, reflex shutter for Arri or timecode for Beauviala). Here we just have a mix bag of already proven technology. Even if it's somewhat new to have all those technologies in one super 8 camera, it's nothing like a real engineering advance.

 

Nothing contrary to you!

 

We speak the same language here, of course :)

 

Why did I write the names of those key people? Because of the same you mentioned!

 

The reality might tell that, you guys, are looking for too much thing! Of course, its my opinion again, Tom...

 

If somebody wants to spend a lot of money than expected for a Super 8 camera, I am ready to try gathering all the people, whose are the retired engineers and technicians still alive in the former Soviet Union and China with a reasonable brain and labor work!!!

[Erkan Umut]

Friedemann,

 

Yes, it is a prototype. But there is nothing other than the prototype pictures :)

 

You mean the lateral guides (film trapping), I think...

 

By the way, thank you for your great article (I speak German as well).

[Tom Chabbat]

Erkan, we're on the same wave. People ask too much of this already wonderful format.

 

But what you said is interesting... are you really in touch with former Soviet technicians ? I would so much love to learn from their experience. If they could make something like a Zenit Quartz but with oscillating mirror and functional C-mount that would be something to throw my money in !

[Anthony Schilling]

 

People ask too much of this already wonderful format

Super 8 is utilizing the same film stocks as 16 & 35mm now, capable of all the same looks and performance. The only real difference would be DOF and grain. The inherent nature of older cameras and plastic cartridge system for the format is not a law. You don't hear anyone saying, "Gee i with they would offer a plastic 200ft coaxial easy load 35mm cartridge for the effect of imperfection"