4K for 16mm - Overkill?

[David Cunningham]

Thinking more about oversampling 16mm at 4K, it does make sense. I use a Nikon Super Coolscan 9000 for my 35mm and 120 film from still photography. The scanner can pass over each frame 1x, 2x, 4x, 8x or 16x. I've never done a comparison, but the more passes the scanner does is supposed to help with the quality of the scan, render things more accurately, etc.

 

John,

 

That's exactly the problem with ANY telecine type machine. That's why the Arriscan, Director and Xena (Cinelab) are technically far superior to any telecine style system be it the Scanity, ScanStation, Millennium or whatever. The Arriscan, Director and Xena actually hold the frame in place and then multi-flash the image and then combine those flashes together. This guarantees the full light information and perfect image stability that the other systems cannot do. When used to their full potential, these 3 systems should not even be comparable to telecine systems like the Scanity, ScanStation or Mliienium.

 

Dave

[John Paul Palescandolo]

 

John,

 

That's exactly the problem with ANY telecine type machine. That's why the Arriscan, Director and Xena (Cinelab) are technically far superior to any telecine style system be it the Scanity, ScanStation, Millennium or whatever. The Arriscan, Director and Xena actually hold the frame in place and then multi-flash the image and then combine those flashes together. This guarantees the full light information and perfect image stability that the other systems cannot do. When used to their full potential, these 3 systems should not even be comparable to telecine systems like the Scanity, ScanStation or Mliienium.

 

Dave

 

The Scanity and ScanStation are telecine systems? I'm surprised to hear that. In my search for the right scanner to scan my film, I have generally gathered and been told that telecine systems are more ancient and data scans are the way to go. However, many say that the Scanity is the system to beat these days. Despite the Scanity being a telecine system, you can see from my other posting, which compared the Scanity to the Director, that the Scanity did a great job!

[David Cunningham]

 

The Scanity and ScanStation are telecine systems? I'm surprised to hear that. In my search for the right scanner to scan my film, I have generally gathered and been told that telecine systems are more ancient and data scans are the way to go. However, many say that the Scanity is the system to beat these days. Despite the Scanity being a telecine system, you can see from my other posting, which compared the Scanity to the Director, that the Scanity did a great job!

 

They are telecine systems in the sense that they can function like telecines and more importantly cannot multi-flash because they are real-time/high-speed data-cines. The film is transported past the sensor, never stopping in a gate. In the case of the Scanity, it uses the old line sensor and beam splitter technique. It uses an innovative sensor that is not the same as the usual CCDs. But, it still uses a line scanning technique that prohibits multi-flash techniques. The ScanStation similarly uses a constant transport system that prohibits multi-flash. However, in this case, it's an area CCD with LEDs that flash quickly behind the film giving a projector like effect on the film.

 

The scanty is definitely the best system for high-spead transfers but should not be able to compete with HDR systems like the Xena, Director or Arriscan. Paul chose that system because it was the best compromise between speed and quality. I'd be willing to bet it cannot handle print or reversal films very well.

 

Unless you are using the multi-flash AND have a wide range (dark shadows AND bright highlights) in the same scene, you likely would not see the difference. And, again, the multi-flash might not be as beneficial to negative as it would be to print or reversal stocks.

[Perry Paolantonio]

Just to be pedantic:

 

Usually "telecine" refers to realtime transfer systems that convert film to video (tape or files, but with the inherent limitations of video: pulldown, color space, frame size, etc). They all work in realtime (and typically only in real time), and usually require a color correction system to be somewhere in the middle between the telecine and the target recording format. Think Rank, Shadow, Spirit, and on the low end, machines like the Elmo TRV or those mirror-based setups for transferring home movies off a projector.

 

A scanner is designed to go from film to digital files, and the speeds at which it does this are non-realtime (faster or slower, depending on the scanner, resolution, etc). The ScanStation is not a telecine - it doesn't even have a video (SDI, that is) output. What these two scanners share in common with telecine is that they're continuous motion (vs. an intermittent motion like you get in some scanners). The Scanity's line sensor is a closer cousin to a telecine, but it's still not the same thing and it's not a fair comparison.

 

-perry

[David Cunningham]

I stand corrected. Thanks perry.

 

I guess I should have referred to them as telecine like. In such that they use a continuous motion technique to create their images which can result in a very good image but has some draw backs that give a properly configured HDR system a slight edge but only in certain scenarios.

[John Paul Palescandolo]

David,

 

In my other post, you mentioned how in all your tests of machines that perform data HDR scans (Director, Xena, Arriscan etc) - you liked the Director the best. Any reason why? Was it better able to capture all the details from the varied exposure of your film?

 

I'm beginning to think that it may not be a bad idea to take one of my 100' rolls of 16mm reversal and have it scanned on the Scanity, Director and we'll see what else. In addition to testing 16mm at 4K vs 2K, it may be interesting to see how much more dynamic range exists on the Director and other multi-flash machines.

[John Paul Palescandolo]

I'm wondering if there's anyone on here who has had print or reversal film transferred on the Scanity. In the post where he announced the Scanity, Paul wrote that the machine will service different types of clients. Here is what #4 on that list says:

 

4) Anyone who wants or requires higher dynamic range scans (ie.. especially those that have print stock they need scanned)