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- Paying people to assume responsibility in executive roles is unreasonable if failure in that responsibility has no greater consequence than it does for non-executives.

 

P

 

Surely that should at least say:

 

- Paying people to assume responsibility in executive roles is unreasonable if failure in that responsibility has less consequence than it does for non-executives.

 

Failure for non-executives can quite often have serious consequences. I would go as far as to say usually.

 

Freya

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I was addressing Maxim's post #91

 

"...so it is people born rich staying rich and making even more money and, of course, power. The idea that the rich should be rewarded because they take risk is as laughable as it is stupid. They normally do not risk their own money or money they could afford to loose."

 

In which case I don't see why someone should be rewarded because their great uncle might have worked really hard at some point. Although I'm sure that isn't what you were suggesting right?

 

Freya

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Freya's correct. These execs are far removed from making decisions about hiring interns. Time to get the thread back on-track.

 

Do you know, I wouldn't mind if the discussion WAS about corporations. If we want to start talking about villians then most corporations would surely be high on that list. However corporations havn't been the topic of discussion and I'm not even sure that Maxim isn't confusing corporations with buisnesses or something! It seems to make no sense in the context he was using.

 

Both of these threads seem to struggle with joined up thinking about things.

 

They look at symptoms of problems and not at the problems themselves.

 

Freya

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IMO Inherited wealth is not a bad thing. I wish I had some of that :)

 

I thought we were going to get back to interns and producers?

 

Okay, I thought I must be misunderstanding you, but yes IMO inhertied wealth is a really, reallly, really bad thing that is presently rotting away the UK.

 

We are going to have to agree to differ tho as I think we are too far away from one another to find a consensus! ;)

 

Freya

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I suggest you start a new thread about corporate greed in the Off Topic forum then.

 

And please remember that politics is not a subject for discussion on this site.

 

I actually think the problem is less to do with corporate greed but the position of corporations as entities but I agree.

I'm not going to bother starting a thread about it tho because people seem more interested in ranting about producers! lol! ;)

 

As to politics, I respect the fact that politics is not a subject for discussion here. I actually am not very interested in discussing that anyway. Of course the problem is where do you draw the line because discussions of the industry can easily have a political element to them, which is why I assume you havn't shut down these threads.

 

Not sure what to say to try and get the thread back on topic tho.

 

One thing I would perhaps suggest is that I notice the term Intern does tend to get used by larger productions that are looking for extra cheap labour. It's not a term that tends to be used in relation to no budget shoots etc.

 

Freya

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IMO inhertied wealth is a really, reallly, really bad thing that is presently rotting away the UK.

I'm picturing a landscape from Children of Men.

 

ChildrenOfMen.png

 

But seriously... I feel like wealth, inherited wealth or any other advantage can be used for good or evil. Lots of wealthy people use their money to do really good things that benefit society.

 

Perhaps we need an International Intern Fund.

 

OK. Walking away...

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I'm picturing a landscape from Children of Men.

 

ChildrenOfMen.png

 

But seriously... I feel like wealth, inherited wealth or any other advantage can be used for good or evil. Lots of wealthy people use their money to do really good things that benefit society.

 

Perhaps we need an International Intern Fund.

 

OK. Walking away...

 

lol! Theres a little truth to that for sure. Megan Ellison seems to be at least doing some interesting things with her money (it's rare tho), but the situation becomes exacerbated over time. Here in the UK we have centuries of inherited wealth and related stuff going on and it's really damaging. We have a lot of serious problems in the UK with equality of opportunity and the flow of wealth etc. Anyway...

 

The idea of an intern fund isn't a bad one actually. I think that's a good suggestion. There is actually something like that in the UK but sadly it's been really badly implemented so that massive Hollywood productions pay virtually nothing compared to the much smaller UK productions but then OTOH it's for productions that are getting tax breaks so it's not like they aren't getting anything in return. It runs through skillset but I don't know the full details. Could be a positive force.

 

Freya

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I'm picturing a landscape from Children of Men.

 

ChildrenOfMen.png

 

But seriously... I feel like wealth, inherited wealth or any other advantage can be used for good or evil. Lots of wealthy people use their money to do really good things that benefit society.

 

Perhaps we need an International Intern Fund.

 

OK. Walking away...

 

And a DOP's fund, to be fair to everyone we need a Producers fund :D running away

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I thought we were going to get back to interns and producers?

 

I think Max and Phil have answered this one for us.

 

Producer = Bad

Intern = Good.

 

R,

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I think Max and Phil have answered this one for us.

 

Producer = Bad

Intern = Good.

 

R,

I would have thought if a producer gave an intern a chance it was good for the intern to get some experience.

It worked like that in the late 1970's in London, which is how I started in the business.

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I'm picturing a landscape from Children of Men.

 

ChildrenOfMen.png

 

We may be closer to this scenario then you might imagine, my friend. The US has 5% of the population and 50% of incarcerated people in the world, 80 percent of adults in the US face near-poverty and unemployment, Four out of 5 U.S. adults struggle with joblessness, near-poverty or reliance on welfare for at least parts of their lives and in a recent U.S. Senate committee hearing it was established that almost one in seven Americans are living below the poverty line with a significant number of them being children. Chief executives of the nation's largest companies earned an average of $12.3 million in total pay last year which is 354 times more than a typical American worker, according to the AFL-CIO. At the upper end of the scale, Oracle's Larry Ellison was this nation's top-earning CEO got paid a whopping $96.1 million last year, while the average worker's got paid $34,645 last year. A typical American household made about $51,017 in 2012, according to new figures out this last week from the Census Bureau which means household income in 2012 was less than the 1989 average household income of $51,681 not including inflation which adds another 800 bucks to the '89 income in today's money. US union members peaked in 1979 at an estimated 21.0 million. Membership has declined since significantly to a current 14.8 million which is a mere 12% of the labor force. Corporate greed is responsible for the cancerous poverty that is destroying this nation. It is also the reason so many remakes, franchises, TV show, video game, turned into into mega-buck tent poles and digital projection multiplexes exist. Simple greed, profit over quality, lowest common denominator over intelligent, well crafted scripts. Flash over substance. Good enough over excellent. Thank God for indie film.

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I would have thought if a producer gave an intern a chance it was good for the intern to get some experience.

It worked like that in the late 1970's in London, which is how I started in the business.

 

Good to hear from someone with a more positive experience! :)

 

Freya

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It worked like that in the late 1970's in London, which is how I started in the business.

 

Take it from me, it certainly doesn't work like that any more.

 

One of the problems with this subject is that it inevitably comes down to people beginning sentences with when I were a lad. It is no longer the late 1970s. That was thirty-five years ago, and things have changed. Back then, we had half a film industry. Not now.

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We may be closer to this scenario then you might imagine, my friend. The US has 5% of the population and 50% of incarcerated people in the world, 80 percent of adults in the US face near-poverty and unemployment, Four out of 5 U.S. adults struggle with joblessness, near-poverty or reliance on welfare for at least parts of their lives and in a recent U.S. Senate committee hearing it was established that almost one in seven Americans are living below the poverty line with a significant number of them being children.

Where did you get these figures from?

And exactly how was this "established"?

 

The problem with "poverty" is that it has an extremely elastic definition.

 

Are they talking about poverty by rural African standards, or by Hamptons standards?

In my experience, "poverty" in western countries is always to some extent self-inflicted, in that there is inevitably some unmentioned and unproductive drain on the victim's resources.

Examples are drug use (including alcohol and cigarettes), compulsive gambling. compulsive consumer spending in an effort at "feeling better", unrealistic life goals (such as being another Steven Spielberg or even another Stephen Williams), "eating out" all the time in fast food joints which is not only unhealthy but unbelievably expensive, generally a desperation to live beyond one's means in order to gain some mythical "status".

 

It is a sad reality that with some people, it doesn't matter matter how much money they are given, they inevitably wind up penniless. (I'm surrounded by such people myself, as it happens).

 

Here's the bottom line: If you're an obstreperous, mean-spirited, and generally untalented arsehole, nobody is going to be particularly interested in furthering your career prospects, whatever they may be. This industry is full of people who seem utterly convinced that there is a conspiracy to deny them their God-given birthright to make some sort of contribution. Maybe, just maybe, they really have nothing special to offer...

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*cough*...*gag*....what the *bleep* are you saying now? Are you nuts?

 

Didn't you read the other thread? At Maxim and Phil's suggestion I am dressing as a pharaoh on my next shoot, and I am shooting in Romania where it is legal to actually whip the crew.

 

R,

I don't know what sort of film you're making, but it sounds like it's sure to be a winner in certain markets. :D

Did you ever see the famous thread in the early days of Reduser (now mysteriously deleted) where the fanboys and management were over-the-moon ebullient about a prestigious production company who had just proudly announced their installation of an all-RED studio with full Redcode RAW workflow, and then they found out that they specialized in Porn films :-)

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In my experience, "poverty" in western countries is always to some extent self-inflicted, in that there is inevitably some unmentioned and unproductive drain on the victim's resources.

Examples are drug use (including alcohol and cigarettes), compulsive gambling. compulsive consumer spending in an effort at "feeling better", unrealistic life goals (such as being another Steven Spielberg or even another Stephen Williams), "eating out" all the time in fast food joints which is not only unhealthy but unbelievably expensive, generally a desperation to live beyond one's means in order to gain some mythical "status".

 

I would agree if the rich were the people not drinking, not smoking, not eating out (in unbelievably expensive restaurants), and not gambling. Because it would mean that the poor are poor because they spend what the rich save up by not doing those things. The problem is that the rich actually do all these things too. So being poor or rich has nothing to do with these activities. Why would a "poorer" person not be entitled to the same sins and unnecessary luxuries that the richer take for granted? It makes no sense.

 

Here's the bottom line: If you're an obstreperous, mean-spirited, and generally untalented arsehole, nobody is going to be particularly interested in furthering your career prospects, whatever they may be. This industry is full of people who seem utterly convinced that there is a conspiracy to deny them their God-given birthright to make some sort of contribution. Maybe, just maybe, they really have nothing special to offer...

 

Again, that would be true if all the people working in this industry had made it by offering something special. But that is not the case. Many people end up being successful in this industry even though they have nothing to offer.

Edited by Nicolas Courdouan
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Where did you get these figures from?

And exactly how was this "established"?

 

The problem with "poverty" is that it has an extremely elastic definition.

 

Are they talking about poverty by rural African standards, or by Hamptons standards?

In my experience, "poverty" in western countries is always to some extent self-inflicted, in that there is inevitably some unmentioned and unproductive drain on the victim's resources.

Examples are drug use (including alcohol and cigarettes), compulsive gambling. compulsive consumer spending in an effort at "feeling better", unrealistic life goals (such as being another Steven Spielberg or even another Stephen Williams), "eating out" all the time in fast food joints which is not only unhealthy but unbelievably expensive, generally a desperation to live beyond one's means in order to gain some mythical "status".

 

It is a sad reality that with some people, it doesn't matter matter how much money they are given, they inevitably wind up penniless. (I'm surrounded by such people myself, as it happens).

 

Here's the bottom line: If you're an obstreperous, mean-spirited, and generally untalented arsehole, nobody is going to be particularly interested in furthering your career prospects, whatever they may be. This industry is full of people who seem utterly convinced that there is a conspiracy to deny them their God-given birthright to make some sort of contribution. Maybe, just maybe, they really have nothing special to offer...

Yeah, you're absolutely right. It's all our fault that manufacturing has been shipped overseas to places where people will do the work for 10 cents on the dollar in squalid conditions that no civilized country would allow. It's OUR fault that a bunch of scumbag weasels sold worthless mortgages that they knew damn well were going to implode. It's our fault that all our protections against abuse by big business were stripped out allowing the super rich to rape our economy and systematically dismantle our middle class. It's our fault the Bush appointed supreme court justices decided corporations should be considered people and are not required to disclose how much and who they funnel MILLIONS of dollars into smear campaigns to influence elections and redistrict Democratic areas so a few Republicans can rig the game in their favor. You're absolutely right all our problems come from alcoholics, drug attics and compulsive gamblers, not to mention those obstreperous, mean-spirited, and generally untalented arsehole seniors on a fixed income and workers who's jobs that have bees shipped overseas or just disappeared because of the rich wrecking our economy. I feel so stupid, not having your clarity on the big picture. Let's hope YOU don't ever have an economic setback and need help to get back on your feet. When you're playing a hand of 3 card Monty, chances are you're not gonna win the game. As for the numbers, you think they're wrong, go look 'em up.

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